paul-cardiff

Jan 31, 08 - 2:53 PM

Capitol Appartments

We were talking about this development on the forum some time ago, and it appears to be closer to reality now according to a piece in todays echo - no link to the article as yet but heres the pic...

Cardiff Ian

Jan 31st, 2008 - 3:16 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

What the hell is that???

DaiB

Jan 31st, 2008 - 3:24 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Kewl! I like it. Different.

paul-cardiff

Jan 31st, 2008 - 3:26 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Hi Ian - theres a piece in todays echo about this development for the rear of the capitol shopping centre - the story isn't on ic wales yet but it'll probably turn up soon.

Cardiff Ian

Jan 31st, 2008 - 3:32 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

There was originally plans for a 30 something storey tower here a few years called capitol heights. I first heard about this proposal about 18 months ago - if it's the same one then they're also building an extra couple of levels over the shopping centre. I just wasn't expecting it to look like this!

Jantra

Jan 31st, 2008 - 3:37 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

well its about 20-30 storeys tall which'll add yet another tower to this part of the city centre...

add to that the marcol court/the other one in the vicinity of marcol court which are 15/20 respectively, then the chutchill way / Newport Road area will have about 10 towers of note.....

a nice little cluster...none too tall to really stand out but fairly tall nonetheless

Wizard

Jan 31st, 2008 - 3:57 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Very promising start. Let's just hope that if it does go ahead, the unique features won't be replaced by a white render.

Cambo_Dai

Jan 31st, 2008 - 4:13 PM

Re: Re: Capitol Appartments

Here is the ICWales article:

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/expats/changing-wales/2008/01/31/capitol-idea-is-a-30m-boost-for-complex-91466-20420857/

It doesn't have a picture, which is always the annoying thing wth ICWales. But from the fuzzy printed photo it looks a fairly interest development. I notice the new vogue for the terracota style tiles. Whilst I would normally favour the use of something other than white render, I would like to see how it would look in various styles in relation to the Aspect and Landmark Place. Sometimes a uniformity of style can be more aesthetically pleasing than a hotch potch of different styles. Maybe something darker and with more glass, echoing the British Gas building just next door.

Its interesting to see the mention of extra retail space, "commercial" (offices) and extra car parking. In some ways it seems to be an effort to compete with SD2 in keeping some of the higher end fashion labels in the centre. If they don't make improvements they could lose out, although the proximity to Queen Street station, and car parks at the Capital, Dumfries Place and next to Brunel House mean it will always be a hugely important gateway site.

DRJones

Jan 31st, 2008 - 4:46 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

very very interesting... i do like it's colouring, makes a bit of a change from white all the time,(anyone who watched grand designs last night will know what i mean!) but also it shows the old postmodernist victorian style edging around the capitol is gone, replaced by something more contemporary.
this is just what tha little corner needed. a makeover of Queen st station would finish it all off!

Cambo_Dai

Jan 31st, 2008 - 4:53 PM

Re: Re: Capitol Appartments

The more I look at it the more I think that it really will have to be white or at least partially white: just look at the picture, it appears to 'clash' with the other nearby towers. Plus the 'modern' parts of the capitol centre are white and that shows more white cladding replacing the victoriana.. having a terracotta tower rise above this will then just look odd.

I'm gonna stick up for white - as long as it is high quality, akin to Admiral House rather than Landmark Place. There could be room for colour, glazing within this though for aesthetic interest.

Spence

Jan 31st, 2008 - 5:29 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Could it be that the bits that look grey are actually white? Whatever happens, this will be a vast improvement on the current dead frontage that surrounds the back of the Capitol. Considering one of Wales' busiest train stations is on it, Station Terrace always seems pretty dead, even though its 2 minutes walk from the shopping core of Queen Street. Hopefully if this scheme and Marcol Court get the go ahead it'll breathe some life into this corner of town. I've always felt that the "block" of Station Terrace, Guildford Crescent, Churchill Way and North Edward St seem very underdeveloped, especially in relation to all the building work going on around them.

Me

Jan 31st, 2008 - 5:52 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Looks alright! Although I suspect the design will change a fair amount before its up.

But my gut feeling is that this one is going to take an age to get built. The impact upon the parking in the capital will be massive, and there's already a 'queue' in cardiff in terms of what work can be done on existing carparks. I reckon we'll have the glass needle and most of havannah Quay before this one!

Andrew

Jan 31st, 2008 - 8:30 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

My goodness! I didn't expect to see something like that! It's in the perfect place to give a nice focal point to the cluster of high-rise buildings in the eastern side of the city centre.

Kyle

Jan 31st, 2008 - 11:04 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Let's hope you are not right Me. It would be nice for a few of these developments that are proposed or that have had recent planning permissions given to actually start getting built. Looking at it positively we now have a pretty decent list of 15 storey plus proposals for the city centre over the next two years. That's without Havannah Quay happening.

It would also be nice to see some renders of the Marcol Court, Churchill Way and Adam Street proposals soon.

des - penarth

Feb 1st, 2008 - 12:44 AM

Re: Capitol Appartments

I'm feeling very optimistic having walked around Cardiff Centre. It's beginning to look very good around Adam St and the bottom end of St Mary St/Mill La. In time it's going to have some real bulk. What with Altolusso, Marriott, Pont-ty-Haearn, Meridian Gate and the developments around Churchill Way, Bridge St and this Capital Apartments thingy.

That with the developments in the Bay and maybe one day, the Glass Needle, Cardiff will look really cool.

Me

Jun 24th, 2008 - 3:43 PM

Re: Re: Capitol Appartments

!

URBANO

Feb 1st, 2008 - 9:35 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Capitol centre apartments: what's the bit on the right (West) side -- it looks like a 20 story car park -- surely not.....

DaiB

Feb 1st, 2008 - 10:48 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Really? Looks like balconies to me.

Cardiff Ian

Feb 8th, 2008 - 10:03 AM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Todays planning applications confirm that it's a 20 storey tower with 164 apartments. Parking will be provided by two new levels built above the existing rooftop car park on the Capitol shopping centre - will be interesting to see how they intend to do this.

Kyle

Feb 8th, 2008 - 11:11 AM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Is that 20 storeys above the car park ? That must make it the equivalent of say 30 storeys in total height.

Planning permission pending I wonder when they will actually start ?

URBANO

Feb 8th, 2008 - 1:08 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

I wouldn't e surprised if it doesn't start at all. I was talking to a partner at a prestigious ( international ) firm of property advisors the other day, and he said one national housebuilder has already entirely totally stopped high rise flats and in his words " there are a lot of very worried house builders out there" He said thre is going to be a massive sort out, and that he can see Housing Associations buying up large numbers of of ( existing ) flats, with all the long term dowmnward spiral that would bring

Sorry, but that's the reality of what has been a massive housing bubble fuelled by cheap money.

In some ways it could be a good thing. I'm not sure I ever wanted Cardiff to be covered with high rise blocks of flats. We might get a bit more variety in land use over the next few years

Karl

Feb 8th, 2008 - 5:27 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Tower block or not - please can the owners sort out the dismal mess that is the exterior of the Capitol centre. Inside it's pretty high end and certainly a more pleasant shopping experience than either St Davids or Queens Arcade. Outside (apart from the later entrance on the corner of Queen St and Churchill Way) it's the worst type of pastiche architecture you could see on all elevations.

London-David

Feb 9th, 2008 - 9:54 AM

Re: Re: Capitol Appartments

I'm sure they'd do it if they thought it was worth their while. Maybe when they start to feel the SD2 pinch, perhaps. Otherwise, theres no incentive for them spending millions with potentially very little payback. The centre is nearly fully let (apart from the Odeon bit)... so.

Dave

Feb 11th, 2008 - 8:55 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Excellent, looks like this has also made this weeks planning applications:

08/00190/C Full Planning Permission Expected Decision Level: COM
Received: 28/01/2008 Ward: CATHAYS
Case Officer: Alan Groves
Applicant: Moorfield Group, Nightingale House, 65 Curzon Street, LONDON
Agents: Powell Dobson Architects, Bernadette Kinsella, Charter House, Links Business Park, St. Mellons, Cardiff
Proposal: TWENTY STOREY TOWER CONTAINING TWO FLOORS OF COMMERCIAL/RETAIL USE AT GROUND AND UPPER GROUND FLOORS. 164 APARTMENTS. TWO PARKING DECKS ABOVE EXISTING. NEW ELEVATIONAL TREATMENT TO STATION TERRACE
At: Capitol Centre, Queen Street, Cathays, Cardiff

Kyle

Feb 11th, 2008 - 10:00 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

That's good news. Let's hope it actually starts soon then...if permission is granted of course !

Not telling you

Feb 11th, 2008 - 10:07 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

ooooo pretty building *drools*

Karl

Feb 12th, 2008 - 10:42 AM

Re: Capitol Appartments

London David

You are probably right although if the apartments go ahead there will surely be a remodelling of the Station Terrace/Edward St frontages. If so why not complete the job on the Queen St frontage - have a relaunch and meet SD2 head on? We can but hope.

DRJones

Feb 13th, 2008 - 3:28 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

an interesting fact: the architects behind this development (Powell Dobson) were responcible for the brewery quarter, an excellently high quality development, in my opinion. this has massive potential, i think!

DRJones

Feb 13th, 2008 - 3:33 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

and also Landmark Place (next door!), Isis 3D and Waterquarter!! lol

Cardiff Ian

Feb 13th, 2008 - 5:00 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Going on their past performance then, we can expect the cladding to consist of multicoloured render

Kyle

May 1st, 2008 - 10:54 AM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Sorry to wake up this thread and make you think there is real news on it.

I noticed there is an article on the Capitol shopping centre development in April's New Homes freebe magazine which you find at the entrance to most supermarkets. The picture we've all seen also appears on the cover. It doesn't say when it is staring but just reiterates what was in the Echo in February. Do you think the fact that it's in there is a) just the publisher of the magazine being a month or two behind on the news front or b) that it's starting to move along in the planning process.

Has it cleared planning hurdles yet ?

Alec-Radyr

May 1st, 2008 - 12:29 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

humm, "NEW ELEVATIONAL TREATMENT TO STATION TERRACE"

wonder what that means...

Spence

May 1st, 2008 - 10:27 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Proably a remodeling of the old cinema building to create a more active frontage on Station Terrace.

Frosty

May 3rd, 2008 - 3:35 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

The development has not received planning consent yet. Due to the elections, the application will not be heard until the June Planning Committee cycle at the earliest.

Me

Jun 24th, 2008 - 3:46 PM

Re: Capitol Apartments

As said elsewhere, blocked for now for a variety of reasons: parking, not fitting well with the rest of the development/shopping centre (and advising to do up the whole thing!) and issues of proximity to other blocks of flats at the lower levels, but still, a new image of what we might have got:

Council planning says the body of the structure is great, but the top and bottom need to look better.

Also, the architects provided a image of tall buildings in Cardiff, red = exist, green = new or proposed. Looks interesting! (is that a needle I see in the background???)

Kyle

Jun 24th, 2008 - 3:57 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

I agree with the planners...the bottom is crap.

Nice to see all the current and proposed buildings in one model. The needle, Staybridge and the proposals around the Rapport/Marcol Court side of town are also in there !

Me

Jun 24th, 2008 - 4:01 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

The image misses out the Adam Street development, for whatever reason. Two more towers to add with that one...

jantra

Jun 24th, 2008 - 4:18 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

that model looks good, if they all get built, plus a few more dotted around here and there...

what I reckon is where we need a tall is slap bang in the middle of the civic centre...who's for redeveloping Cathays Gardens

Jonathan

Jun 24th, 2008 - 4:28 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Just seeing that model emphasises to me how important the piece of land the prison is on at the moment - i.e. in other words the prison really needs to be moved to open up that part of the city to development.

On the issue of Capitol Apartments, is this project dead or is the developer willing to make alteration to parking etc (which seems to me to be a relatively easy change to the plans).

Me

Jun 24th, 2008 - 4:36 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

I've heard nothing from the developers, but a skim read of the document made the reservations look to me like its the kinda thing that is par for the course, even with developments that get built. Complaints about the social housing, contribution to park space etc. The least easily fixed prob seems to be the proximity (esp at lower levels) to the nearby builds, and how neighbourly that is/isnt. I doubt that its dead in the water, but will have to undergo some level of re-draft.

Me

Jun 24th, 2008 - 4:37 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Also - not sure that closing prisions is high on the political agenda right now. I think it'll be there for a while yet...

jantra

Jun 24th, 2008 - 4:51 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

but building a prison out in the sticks between Cardiff and Newport where land is cheap may be preferentail to a developer who gets there hands on prime city cetnre acreage

Kyle

Jun 24th, 2008 - 5:02 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Seeing that the Shared Prison Services is on Celtic Springs kind of in between Newport and Cardiff why not build an actual prison there as well !

Kyle

Jun 24th, 2008 - 5:24 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Has anyone got any images or plans of the Marcol Court ones shown in green above ? I just had a closer look and there's 4/5 different heights to the proposed structure there. We haven't heared about that for a little while.

Cambo_Dai

Jun 24th, 2008 - 5:24 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

It is policy to place prisons in areas with good public transport links to facilitate visits by family (and/or friends) during incarceration. This is seen as important for human rights, but also theres a fair bit of evidence it makes it much easier for people to complete rehabilitation, and to reintegrate into the outside world following release. This reduces repeat offending, particuarly for more minor crimes.

My view is we lock up far too many people. As a way of reducing crime it just doesn't work. Its costly and for each person discouraged, it seems to mess someone else up. For younger offenders, in particular, other forms of justice seem to have much better success rates, including "restorative" justice where the criminal is forced to confront the victim (or their advocates) and engate in community work and tasks the courts agree with the victims. So someone who mugs an old lady may have to help out with refurbing a day care centre, after having been confronted by the victim (if the victim feels able) and having the consequences explained to them.

Anyway thats by the by. We're not gonna see the prison demolished, and nor should it be stuck in the middle of nowhere. I agree its a shame it is quite such a 'central' site next to Queen Street station, but I cannot see an alternative site with the required access elsewhere in the city.

Kyle

Jun 24th, 2008 - 10:59 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Going back to the Capitol Apartments, the image that Me posted today seems a storey or two shorter than the echo scanned picture on the first post of the thread, or is it just me and my poor old man eyesight ?

If they passed all the planning hurdles how likely are they to start construction anytime soon though ? We aren't exactly in a favourable climate for new flats in the city centre or bay are we ? Lets hope they are prepared to gamble on things improving by the time the building is up.

URBANO

Jun 25th, 2008 - 9:27 AM

Re: Capitol Appartments

As someone who practised criminal law in the early stages of his career I can tell you that all alternative forms of punishment, including probation and community service orders, are regarded by criminals ( or "offenders" as this government calls them ) as a complete joke. The only thing they fear is prison.The notion that soft treatment prevents serial offending is simply wrong.

As a taxpayer, in a city trying to make money and advance itself, I consider siting the prison not for that purpose but for for the convenience of people who have assaulted me/stolen my property/ raped my daughter or whatever as indicative of the failure of nerve that has characterised most of the better people in our society for most of the last 5 decades.

Turning more to environmental issues, the prison is an obvious eyesore and a block to what would otherwise be organic commercial development in a part of the city which has been too down at heel for too long. Market conditions over the last 10 years or so would surely have made the selling of the prison and the building of a new one a no cost option. A pity it wasn't done.

Still, hope for the future though. It would make the centre of Cardiff larger, more coherent, and much more attractive.It would help in getting the city up a notch from the "big small town " feel it currently has without in any sense creating the anonymity of the larger city. It should make the city richer. That must be good for everyone- even the criminals, as there will be more for them to steal, and even perhaps more people for them to assault .

Cambo_Dai

Jun 25th, 2008 - 11:16 AM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Urbano - I'm gonna play the "can't see the wood for the trees" argument and assert that your experience "on the ground" where you pick up prejudices, get set in certain ways, and get emotionally involved, isn't the correct way to investigate "good punishment". There have been a whole host of serious studies looking at the effectiveness of various forms of punishment. The deterrent effect of prison is found to be low to non-existent, and its impact on reoffending anywhere from slightly reducing, the making quite a bit worse. The studies to avoid are those merely showing a correlation between prison severity and an outcome of interest (e.g. crime rate), and the studies to take serious are those that try to control for possible counterveiling factors.

As a taxpayer you want value for money right? So do you want a bunch of resentful prisoners and their children committing more crimes because of poor reintegration?

Jantra

Jun 25th, 2008 - 11:55 AM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Dai

did any of these studies actually ask the criminal what was more effective...white washing Ethel Skinners garden fence then buggering off afterwards to go down the pub with the lads or sharing a cell with bubba who actually quites fancies you as his new 'bitch'

I've a few associates who've gone over the wall. Let me tell you something, the only thing that made them consider their actions was being taken away from society and not community sentences.

why can't they do community sentences whilst being inside. That is,m set up chain gangs, get them building motorways and all sorts of useful things rather then back home to a cell for an evening.

Jantra

Jun 25th, 2008 - 12:00 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Dai

in answer to your last paragraph?

personally, i'd say three strikes and you're out. For each crime you are given 'gaol' time, you get 'gaol' time three times and you become a lifer, no chance of parole. ever!

the 'gaol' time for each crime will be set by the victim, within a range ie 0-50 years.

can you imagine the possibility of going to gaol for road rage for 50 years. or 50 years for shouting abuse at someone...do you think people would seriously consider crime as being worth the risk?

I wouldn't even fart in anyones general direction on the basis I could lose my liberty for that length of time. some will take te risk, most would not.

Cambo_Dai

Jun 25th, 2008 - 12:14 PM

Re: Capitol Appartments

Look - what people say and what people do is often very different. Survey people if they would hand in a wallet they found and nearly all will say yes - experiments round the world show that the number who actually do varies from about 20% in some developing countries to about 60% in somewhere like Norway. Or ask people about the environment and see how hypocritical people really are. Thats why economists (and to a lesser extent other social scientists) like to look at how people actually behave, as opposed to what people say they will do.

If people are asked what is the biggest deterrent and "common sense" will say harsher punishment, long prison terms, poor conditions in prison etc etc. It just seems to make sense, doesn't it? But you look at the numbers - the number of crimes committed, the actual reoffending rates, family breakdown and the cycle of poverty/offending across generations etc etc and you get the real, and very different picture about actual behaviour. Prison, at best, has some effect on reducing initial offending, but at huge expense, and in worsening child poverty, and a cycle across generations. Other studies show it having no positive effects at all.

Relatively simple things like ensuring families can visit prisoners are shown to really help, particularly where there are children involved, or where the offender is fairly young.