Cardiff Ian

Apr 24, 08 - 9:06 AM

John Lewis

News in the Western Mail today about John Lewis:

http://tinyurl.com/6jdf7k

Personally, I'm disappointed that there will not be a food hall now - I think Cardiff could sustain both this and Waitrose in Pontprennau. This area of town has no real provision for food shopping and I think this is a short sighted move.

Wizard

Apr 24th, 2008 - 10:52 AM

Re: John Lewis

I'm starting to tire of these press articles.

Less than 6 months ago, they were bleating about how John Lewis was going to have the first of its (non London)new generation massive food halls. It sounded like a very bold and exciting development for Cardiff. Almost too bold? Apparantly yes, because now they ain't even going to sell a handfull of rice at the new store (if the WM article is to be believed). Talk about U-turns!

The city centre is currently very poorly served for food shopping.

Me

Apr 24th, 2008 - 11:10 AM

Re: John Lewis

Maybe we will get a tesco in SD2!?

Kyle

Apr 24th, 2008 - 11:13 AM

Re: John Lewis

It is a little odd. There's a whole series of developments going up in the southern end of town over the next few years. They would have been in a prime position to gain from that. What competition would they have had ? All you've got is M&S and Sainsbury's Central on Queen St., the small food part of Howells and then the odd Deli.

There's always that World Foods place on Penarth Road in Grangetown

Kyle

Apr 24th, 2008 - 11:15 AM

Re: John Lewis

Me, Tesco have been thinking about moving into some Shopping Malls. To be honest, some people may dislike Tesco but having a Tesco Express or Metro on Adam Street or somewhere similar might not be a bad idea...not in SD2 though please !

London-David

Apr 24th, 2008 - 11:50 AM

Re: John Lewis

Wasn't the store originally meant to be 5 story and 250,000 square feet-ish, as opposed to 4 stories and 180,000 square feet as this article states?

This seems like a much more significant retrenchment than just the, admittedly disappointing in itself, abandonment of the food hall. Also he protests rather too loudly that:

“We are utterly committed to opening our first John Lewis department store in Wales next year and we are pleased to say that everything is on track for that to happen.”

Is it me or did this seem a rather unneccesary comment and indicates that they perhaps have considered backing out completely but rejected the proposal due to the sunk costs - i.e. given capital has been committed and can't be invested elsewhere they'll make the most of what they've got.

Me

Apr 24th, 2008 - 12:19 PM

Re: John Lewis

I was kinda playing devils advocate when I suggested the tescos in SD2.

Although I agree a food outlet would be good around that part of town, and one that stayed open into the evening would add life.

Spence

Apr 24th, 2008 - 12:22 PM

Re: John Lewis

Your're right, it was supposed to be 250,000 sq ft. Given the building was well underway even when they were still stating 250,000, I can only assume that they've subdivided part of it? It certainly doesn't look shorter than it was supposed to be.

DaiB

Apr 24th, 2008 - 12:31 PM

Re: John Lewis

Or perhaps some incorrect figures have been bandied about. Which would hardly be a new thing.

Wizard

Apr 24th, 2008 - 1:13 PM

Re: John Lewis

There's a fair few things about this article which don't make sense.

As you point out, it say 180,000 sq ft but their website still says 240,000 sq ft.

http://www.johnlewis.com/Shops/DSShop.aspx?Id=36

It also says the biggest outside London - it would NOT be the biggest outside London by a long way if it was 180,000 sq ft.

Also, the quote "...with Waitrose due to open ... before the department store, a VERY SMALL food hall in the department store would not be required" .

It was never going to be a very small food hall but a
key attraction of the store.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/oct/03/retail

Why can't they just have a Waitrose in the store?

Hypercelt

Apr 24th, 2008 - 2:09 PM

Re: John Lewis

Ah well - we have Cardiff market and Wally's - what else do we need....

Kyle

Apr 24th, 2008 - 2:16 PM

Re: John Lewis

Perhaps they read the research on Cardiff not having much of a middle class and that's why they are pulling out of having a food element. After all, we all eat McDonalds down here and have no desire for high quality food.

Zach

Apr 24th, 2008 - 5:52 PM

Re: John Lewis

Very disappointed about this. An article in the Sunday Times said following the trial in one of the London John Lewis stores, they would roll it out. Cardiff being a certainty.

I can not believe the lack of choice for supermarkets in Cardiff. How on earth can ASDA be let build in Leckwith when they have one a mile away at Ferry Road.

It should have been Sainsburys

Thats what you get in a free market...No choice.

London-David

Apr 24th, 2008 - 7:31 PM

Re: John Lewis

Errr... the issue with choice is that there is no 'free market' in the provision of supermarkets. There is a 'needs' and an 'impact' test which effectively constrains the development of stores and prevents competition amongst the big chains. Stores will often be refused permission to build when there are a couple of supermarkets within about a 10 minute drive.

Asda got the store at Leckwith because they were able to agree better terms with the developer: for all we know Sainsbury's might have not been interested or wasn't willing to pay a fair price. Planners cannot force supermarkets to build in areas, and if they force developers to accept offers from 'underrepresented supermarkets' that gives the latter a huge bargaining chip to demand really favourable terms. This might reduce the supply of new developments undermining your whole choice argument.

The good thing is that the free market safeguards choices for all concerned: the choice of landowners over who to sell their land to; the choice of businesses of where to locate; and the choice of consumers of where to shop. Uf you really want sainsbury's.. drive there or catch the bus. Your 'right to choice' doesn't trump the rights of shareholders.

Zach

Apr 24th, 2008 - 9:22 PM

Re: John Lewis

London-David,

You do take some of my posts at an absolute and a rather literal level.

Sometimes I am being slightly facetious you know.

Post:
The time absolutely flew yesterday, I was having such fun.

Reply:
Yes, the day in terms of sidereal length was at it's greatest variance comparable to the solar day, however I don't think this was the explanation, your perception of time does relate concentration of endorphins on the pleasure receptors in the brain. This, I suspect is why you perceived the time constriction.

Cardiff Ian

Apr 24th, 2008 - 9:54 PM

Re: John Lewis

I seem to recall that Sainsburys were interested in the site but in the end Asda obviously wanted it more.

Hypercelt

Apr 24th, 2008 - 10:35 PM

Re: John Lewis

I'm obviously schizo - I read Zach's posts and London/Cambo-Dai's posts and I agree with both! Down with supermarkets boo hiss - they give us artificial low costs and bugger up the sustainability of our future - on the other hand when your draggin a kid around its easy to pile everything into one trolley in 90 minutes (no less with kiddo) so you are free to spend your time - er spending money

Zach

Apr 24th, 2008 - 10:53 PM

Re: John Lewis

Hypercelt: "[Supermarkets]they give us artificial low costs"

Have you seen how expensive food is lately?

I have sympathy with the Teachers, only being offered 2.4%

Jonathan

Apr 24th, 2008 - 11:10 PM

Re: John Lewis

^^^ What about other public sector workers who earn a lower average salary than teachers... if I recall correctly, no other public sector has been awarded a higher than rate of inflation pay rise (please correct me if i'm wrong).

London-David

Apr 24th, 2008 - 11:57 PM

Re: John Lewis

I have little sympathy with teachers:

- their unions cleverly got the Performance Related Pay (about £2000) into a virtual pay-rise for everyone a few years back

- they enjoyed reasonable above inflation rises between about 1999 and 2005.

The government is going through a process of belt tightening. In many private sector firms doing the same, there'd be job losses or retrenchment, and probably pay freezes. The government can't really do the former as it is expected to provide services regardless, and it still manages to increase pay somewhat nominally. Any greater pay rises will mean:

- lower spending on books or school buildings and equipment
- higher taxes for us all
- higher borrowing (higher taxes for our kids)

The real-terms after-inflation pay of teachers has risen by something like 20% since 1997 - less than health workers but more than civil servants, police and the non-financial private sector. So they're not doing too badly.

And the fact is, in primary schools at least, there is a surplus of newly graduating teachers so what is the justification for raising pay? If there are shortages in certain areas in certain areas, target available resources there. Oh a market in teachers pay? Now we can't be having that.. shortages for high school french teachers? Higher pay for Primary School Teachers!

URBANO

Apr 25th, 2008 - 8:47 AM

Re: John Lewis

Zach- completely brilliant.

Jeremy

Apr 25th, 2008 - 9:51 PM

Re: John Lewis

London-David, who says there is a surplus of primary school teachers. Just because there are dropping school rolls does not mean we should get rid of teachers. We should be taking the oppurtunity to increase teacher pupil ratios and raise standards. The future is supposed to be about education, smaller classes sizes would help. Maybe we would then get management that realise that John Lewis need a food hall in Cardiff or bankers in London who are finacially literate.

URBANO

Apr 25th, 2008 - 11:19 PM

Re: John Lewis

Over to you,Cambo, I would have thought

James

Apr 25th, 2008 - 11:56 PM

Re: John Lewis

As someone who is in a relationship with a primary school teacher I can confirm, that while the strike action is officially about pay, in reality it is about low morale, and the general lack of respect shown to them by the media, and this so called Labour government.

We hear all the time in the gutter press about hoodies, yobs, lack of respect etc and teachers are at the forefront of this.

New Labour have created a worse society over the last ten years and my girlfriend takes it in the neck from little ****s who don't even know they are born. To hear (poncy, london-based, ignorant) Ed Balls then criticise teachers makes me sick to my back teeth, and shows that the Labour party couldn't care less about people and their problems.

To hear parents moan about being put out by the first one day strike in 20 fricking years shows to me that they can't love their children that much if they aren't prepared to sacrifice one day for them.

BBC Wales report was at least fair..I was embarrassed by the bias shown by the BBC national news.

None of us would be here without good teachers..the greatest and most important paid profession in the world if you ask me.

URBANO

Apr 26th, 2008 - 11:07 AM

Re: John Lewis

There's a load of hassle in almost every job. If teachers don't like it then they should go off and do something else, rather than try to force me to hand over yet more of my own money to them, whilst at the same time refusing to carry out the duties that they were engaged to do.

People who are self-employed can't say "my morale is a bit low,and I don't think I'm being paid enough, so I'm going to refuse do what my customers have paid me to do". They wouldn't have any customers. That's the difference, and I think it's high time teachers, and other public sector workers, appreciated that point.

Furthermore, despite all the whingeing, all public sector employees have the benefit of bombproof pensions, which long ago disappeared in the private sector. I think they should be more appreciative of that fact.

In fact, they will benefit substantially from an unjust system. Those pensions will place an enormous burden on future taxpayers, who will be expected to pay substantial sums to keep one half of the ageing population in the style to which they've become accustomed, whilst the other half (with knackered private pension schemes) will be expected to live in relative poverty.Totally outrageous in my view.

James

Apr 26th, 2008 - 11:14 AM

Re: John Lewis

Teachers have worked hard for their rights, and it's not for self-employed persons, who make an equal decision to take the risky path of self-emplyment, to deny them their rights.

The above kind of heartless opinion does nobody any good whatsoever.

And teacher don't choose who their 'customers' are. In fact, I can't abide commercial phrases being used in an education context. The hassle the likes of my girlfriend puts up to educate kids in this city should be appreciated and not mocked.

URBANO

Apr 26th, 2008 - 11:20 AM

Re: John Lewis

Everyones' worked hard. It's just person A can compel future tax payers to hand over money to them and person B can't. A retires comfortably; B retires in poverty. The only reason for that is that A was employed by the state, and B wasn't . Outrageous.

And who thinks its' only public sector workers that have "low morale"

Stop whingeing, count your blessings, and get on with it.

Zach

Apr 26th, 2008 - 11:54 AM

Re: John Lewis

I have a certain amount of sympathy for the public service workers. The fact that the Government keeps saying they are getting a pay rise based on inflation. I'm surprised the Unions have only just woken up to the CPI con.
True, they get a very good deal as far as pensions are concerned, but I can't imagine any private sector employees agreeing to a three year pay agreement at what is effectively half the current RPI, with the current upward price pressures.

London-David

Apr 26th, 2008 - 1:25 PM

Re: John Lewis

This so-called Labour government has introduced a range of measures to improve the working lives of teachers:

- it has raised salaries by 20% in real terms over 10 years.
- it has contracted non-contact time
- it has provided the resources to decrease class sizes, particularly in primary schools
- it has provided the resources to refurbish and rebuild hundreds of schools
- it has provided new equipment, learning materials etc.
- hired thousands and thousands of teaching assistants which give teachers a bit of a break.

The education system has faced nothing like the level of reform as the health service where there is more justification for a lack of morale due to 'system overload'.

Labour's "Worse society?" ahem.. I think its been this government that has tried to tackle the underlying problems of anti-social behaviour: poverty. This government has invested BILLIONS in reducing child poverty, on encouraging families to work and have a stake in the system, and is now focussing on early years where many of these problems start. In terms of criminality it has made the legal system much more harsh giving custodial sentences to more people (I personally think this is a bad idea as prison seems poor at preventing low level crime), and ASBOs have been useful in many communities although frowned upon by the Liberal-left.

I think its very hard to make a case that this government has been anything other than committed to the education system, to tackling the root causes of anti-social behaviour and punishing it when it occurs. The reason these efforts haven't been that successful is changes in wider society and attitude that the government has little impact on: a reduction in respect and deference for institutions and a reluctance by parents to accept responsibility or to accept their kids are troublemakers.

If teachers are unhappy its because they had unrealistic expectations in 1997 about what a Labour government could do. It has done a lot to boost pay, recruitment and improve facilities. It could never do much to change behaviour and attitudes. And 'paperwork' is unfortunately a fact of life when society wants its education system to work with social services, health etc.

And I don't buy the hours teachers say they do. 60 hour weeks, my ****. When combined with long holidays I'd be surprised if they are putting in a yearly average of anything more than 45.

If you ask me its the prison and police officers I have sympathy for. The latter are unable to strike, and have seen their pay rise by less than 10% in real terms over the last decade.

Oh and a final point about class sizes. There is virtually no evidence that smaller class sizes lead to better outcomes in either academic or social performance, until class sizes get down to perhaps 10 - 15. And that ain't gonna happen with the levels of tax Britons are willing to pay. Thinking of the system as a whole, our society is in the process of changing from one with more children to more pensioners: i think this 2007 is when the switch actually took place. Both are a net-cost to the state and unless we want working-aged people to face higher demands, in order to pay for the elderly, we need to cut back what we spend on children. Closing schools and classes is one way to do this and one that seems to have very little impact on quality of education. Its "common sense" but a myth that smaller classes = better outcomes for kids.

Wizard

Apr 26th, 2008 - 2:35 PM

Re: John Lewis

Well I never realised that the John Lewis store coming to Cardiff would lead to so such an outpouring of political discourse about the education system.

.

Seriously though,everyone has raised very pertinent points in the past few posts.

At the root of it all, the solution does indeed lie in our (note - not the Government's) failure to create a more respectful and reponsibility driven society.

I think that David's comments about the extra billions ploughed into education are incontrovertably true and can be proven by an analysis of the investment statistics of the past ten years.

I think that Urbano's comments about the patently unfair public sector advantage regarding pension provision by the state is a hard fact which is (amazingly) unacknowledged by the armies of civil servants who are employed by the state.

I also think that James is only stating the realities of what it is like in many schools where teachers have to deal with *******s on a daily basis (guess the asterisked word).

In my La-La land idealistic world, the solution is to create a more respectful society *. The consequence would be that teachers get less hassle in the classroom. This leads to more contented teachers who wouldn't feel overworked and would be less likely to make exessive pay demands. This would help to reduce the tension with private sector workers. A more respectful society would, needless to say, reduce anti social behaviour and make life easier for the police and probation service.

We would then all be more relaxed and have time to go shopping in John Lewis

* The only unanswered question is how!!!

URBANO

Apr 26th, 2008 - 4:34 PM

Re: John Lewis

Well the government's approach would be to tax people even more, then use that money to build lots of John Lewis type shops, allow some people to get everything in them free, and- bob's your uncle- poverty's history. Basically, they're mad.

Well,its the best I could do to get back to John Lewis but, oh dear, I may have made things worse.

James

Apr 26th, 2008 - 7:06 PM

Re: John Lewis

A new picture of the John Lewis store ...

Me

Apr 26th, 2008 - 7:11 PM

Re: John Lewis

Cripes! Not the colour I'd expected...

James

Apr 26th, 2008 - 7:15 PM

Re: John Lewis

There's a piece on icWales about the topping out ceremony and how the development will progress over the coming months ...

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/cardiff-news/2008/04/26/john-lewis-hits-the-heights-in-cardiff-91466-20823152/

wizard

Apr 26th, 2008 - 8:53 PM

Re: John Lewis

I'd treat this with a pinch of salt because the glass that they've put up opposite the Golden Cross pub (ie the corner shown)is different than the clear glass shown here, isn't it?

I'm not too keen on the beige panels on this image, although the beige panels on the Marriott car park look quite good - but then that's only a car park.

wizard

Apr 26th, 2008 - 8:54 PM

Re: John Lewis

The link also mentions 180,000 sq ft again.....

Spence

Apr 26th, 2008 - 11:29 PM

Re: John Lewis

Urgh!!! That looks like it's been taken from a 60's urban design textbook! I mean ffs what is with beige tiles being stuck on every new building these days. It's cheap, ugly and downright depressing.

Wizard

Apr 27th, 2008 - 12:04 PM

Re: John Lewis

So you're not keen on it then?

Alec-Radyr

Apr 27th, 2008 - 12:54 PM

Re: John Lewis

naff, boring...dated

dear oh dear

URBANO

Apr 27th, 2008 - 2:41 PM

Re: John Lewis

Reminds me a bit of the Ice Rink. Plus ca change...

DRJones

Apr 27th, 2008 - 3:01 PM

Re: John Lewis

I had my doubts about the John Lewis for a while. It really doesn't look good. It is indeed like something horrible from the 60's. I won't espect it to be standing in 30 years time. however, it must be said it is a slight improvement to it's predecesor. I've got doubt's about the new library too, the blue and turqoise glass panels really are old hat in the extreme. However, the rest of St Davids 2 is superb! strange how one development has so much varied quality in it...

Lyndon

Apr 27th, 2008 - 3:31 PM

Re: John Lewis

The glass panels look really, really good in reality. Go and check 'em out if you haven't yet.

wizard

Apr 27th, 2008 - 4:28 PM

Re: John Lewis

I can't imagine the new glass pattern complementing the beige panels so I think (hope!) that the beige panels will not actually be erm beige but ......grey!
We'll have to see.

Andrew

Apr 27th, 2008 - 6:53 PM

Re: John Lewis

Ugh... I don't like that view. Looks the same as the Holiday Inn reclad.

Spence

Apr 27th, 2008 - 9:36 PM

Re: John Lewis

I can only think they're trying to make it blend better with the brickwork of the Park Inn, CIA, Golden Cross and Marriott. If so, it shows an abysmal lack of ambition or determination because at least half of those buildings should be demolished within the next few years.

DaiB

Apr 27th, 2008 - 10:10 PM

Re: John Lewis

I really would be very surprised if the 'pattern' on the glass is not a protective layer which will be removed in time.

Guess we'll have to wait till this one's built to know what it really looks like.. hard to tell what materials are involved there. John Lewis stores are notoriously ugly the county over so I never really hoped for anything more than a big box.

There's a distinct consolation in the active frontages onto Bute Terrace which should help that area feel a little more relevant.

Wizard

May 5th, 2008 - 2:58 PM

Re: John Lewis

I was reading a newspaper at the weekend and stumbled across a pic of a huge new John Lewis about to open in Leicester which was attracting praise for the design of the building.

It's also a SD2 style major developent in the city centre called Highcross Quarter. It's quite an eye catcher of anyone is interested in looking.

http://www.johnlewis.com/Shops/DSShop.aspx?Id=38

I hope that we are not going to get crap cladding on the Cardiff store when other peer cities can manage something more grand.

We'll have to wait and see. Interestingly the John Lewis weblink NOW SAYS that the Cardiff store will be 280,000sq ft now (last week it said 240,000 sq ft) and the Western Mail said 180,000 sq ft

http://www.johnlewis.com/Shops/DSTemplate.aspx?Id=286

URBANO

May 5th, 2008 - 4:14 PM

Re: John Lewis

I saw that- the Leicester one's been designed by some buzzy firm of architects.I hope we're not getting a duff one.

Hypercelt

May 5th, 2008 - 5:17 PM

Re: John Lewis

I'm not too worried whether or not John Lewis looks earth shattering or not - it is practically going to be buried in among the surrounding buildings. I would have been much happier for the Radisson Tower to be more spectacular. The other point is that you would expect John Lewis in Leicester to look sensational - after all there would be little else to go there to see. Cardiff has so much more on offer!

Me

May 6th, 2008 - 10:47 AM

Re: John Lewis

Championship football, for example...

Kyle

May 6th, 2008 - 11:07 AM

Re: John Lewis

The shop is a very welcome addition to the city, whether the building itself is earth shattering or otherwise.

Cardiff has done well in terms of it's retail position until now but has been lacking in the department store stakes if you ask me. Other than House of Fraser we've desperately been needing this John Lewis store. For us to move further I think a Harvey Nicks or Selfridges is also needed. I don't know if this is likely any time soon though but it would be nice.