DRJones

Jul 5, 08 - 8:00 PM

Madina Mosque

found on walesonline:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/cardiff-news/2008/07/05/new-mosque-s-start-marked-by-vip-visitor-91466-21266029/

a former Pakistani prime minister helped to inaugurate the start of construction on the new mosque on woodville street (i think?) in cathays.

the skyscrapercity forumk did a lot on this topic, apparently been going for some time, but construction has started

Hypercelt

Jul 5th, 2008 - 10:33 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

Near enough to the Civic Centre to add to the overall interest of the skyline in the city centre

Spence

Jul 6th, 2008 - 12:03 PM

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Is it still going to have 4 minarets? Awesome if it does .

Alec-Radyr

Jul 6th, 2008 - 12:24 PM

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yeah.. funky.. where exactly is this tho?

Mike

Jul 6th, 2008 - 12:28 PM

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I hope this monstrosity of a building never makes it. Parking in the area is already under severe pressure, and with the size of this development, it will cause untold misery to all the nearby residents....

Alex

Jul 6th, 2008 - 12:34 PM

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Im not a property professional but does this building look like its going to cost way more than £7M ?

Me

Jul 6th, 2008 - 4:15 PM

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I understand the location is at the end of Woodville Road at the end of the short stretch that is the otherside of crwys road, ie opposite end to the woodville pub.

London-David

Jul 6th, 2008 - 5:41 PM

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Muslims tend to prefer to walk to the Mosque - whilst unlike Jews they are not forbidden from using motorised transport (it is classed as work), it is seen as being more relaxing and conducive to prayer. A time to think.

Its unlikely that there'll be masses of traffic. I fear your reason for objecting to it is that it is a large Mosque - a large new Church would be okay. Our minorities will be more integrated and less likely to breed extremism if allowed to worship properly. Its the small crappy mosques where radicals are often most at work, under the radar.

Zach

Jul 6th, 2008 - 5:47 PM

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Any Pics?

Kyle

Jul 6th, 2008 - 7:43 PM

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Personally I welcome the building. It shows how multicultural Cardiff truly is. Muslims have been here for years and years and deserve somewhere decent to pray. Any true major city should have a decent place to worship for all forms of religion...I have the Millennium Stadium so let muslims have their mosque.

Good luck to them, I hope it gets built and I hope it looks good. The actual picture isn't very representative of the surrounding area though it has to be said !

jantra

Jul 6th, 2008 - 8:11 PM

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this thread is blasphemy...we all know the one true religion..although its disciples are having a hard time of it lately with news that hierarchy are taking more than they should...

seriously, good addition to the city...islam is a peaceful religion...is christianity an evil religion due to the terrorism of the past

no of course not so we shouldn't brandish all moslems as the same. they are not. more than welcome I say, the somalis etc have a long history with Cardiff, those from the docks are as much Cardiff as us all and have help make this city what it is

Jeremy

Jul 7th, 2008 - 9:52 PM

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My sister-in-laws now deceased father was an Arab muslim sailor who settled in Cardiff, but very secular judging by his smoking and drinking, as any good sailor should do. My sisiter in law speaks arabic and has less than flattering tales of how european women were talked about in Saudi by Arab men.

Does that in any way represent how all muslims behave, of course not.

But I think we all have deep set unconscious prejudices and stereotypes instilled in us by society. Try reading Macolm Gladwells book "Blink", who is black and see his own reactions to photos of black people in tests he undertook. This may help to explain our own unconcious reactions to difference and religion, black head dress or covered faces.

A mosque, fine, pity we could not keep all the old churches and chapels but then look at how secular most of society has become in 100 years.

Personally I would like to see a Hindu temple like the one recently opened in London, Shri Swaminarayan Mandir. Stunning stone carving.

London-David

Jul 7th, 2008 - 10:36 PM

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There were some impressive additions to the Hindu Temple in Grangetown - Merches Place, is it? Mostly decorative I think but they do look nice and the community was evidently proud with a 4,000 strong procession through the city to mark its completion.

Another old building worth taking a look at is the old synagogue on Cathedral Rd - all that remains now is the frontage with the rest replaced by serviced offices.

Karl

Jul 8th, 2008 - 8:58 AM

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A wonderful old Methodist church is Pearl Street, Splott is now a Sikh temple. They have taken a great building dying a slow death and brought it back to life. Surely that must be better than it being turned into a carpet warehouse or worse laying empty until it decays. Likewise the listed chhurch on Crwys road which is now a mosque.

Spence

Jul 8th, 2008 - 9:55 AM

Re: Madina Mosque

URBANO

Jul 8th, 2008 - 10:10 AM

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Turning churches into supermarkets and building a massive Mosque next to the Civic Centre (so that it will be seen from every angle as far as I can judge)seems like a reflection of the loss of nerve in western society . Great idea in principle, everyone living happily together, like those church handouts one used to get in the street showing all colours and the sheep and the lion lying down in a grassy meadow together. Its just that Multicultarilism does not work. It has been a disaster. There is no real, true blending of Muslim/ Chinese/ Black/ Whites etc in the UK. What you get is ghettoes. Blacks live with blacks, muslims with muslims, whites with whites et(even the Welsh and the Scottish are still disdainful of the English ( and vice versa) after centuries of commonality, most importantly religous). All this mosque will do is encourage that ghettoisation, and at the same time bugger up one of the very few really attractive scenes in Cardiff with a huge lump of faux Islamic architecture.

Karl

Jul 8th, 2008 - 10:39 AM

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It's hardly next to the Civic centre. It's planned for a patch of land behind the Crwys pub, more than half a mile from the civic centre. Besides which I seriously doubt it will rise as high as the renders suggest.

The other issue - multiculturalism - is a whole new nest of vipers and I won't go there. The fact is howver that muslims and British born muslims exist in large numbers in the UK. As such it isn't feasible to deny them the opportunity to build places of worship as long as they comply with existing planning regs etc. Whats the alternative? Repatriation? All mosques to be modest in size/conversions of existing buildings/out of sight?

I'd be interested to hear your views on what the alternatives are. That is genuine by the way and not meant to be facetious.

Cambo_Dai

Jul 8th, 2008 - 10:50 AM

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Oh come on the Welsh and Scots are not "disdainful" of the English: there is sometimes a bit of misplaced 'bitterness', usually amongst the low skilled and unemployed looking for a scapegoat, or the small minority favouring independence. Near 20% of Cardiff's population is English (about 1/4 - 1/3 of these will be students) and they get on in the city fine, mingling with Welsh and other people. Hundreds of thousands of Welsh are fully integrated into England and vice versa. Perhaps you haven't noticed this.

Multiculturalism has not worked fully in its present guise, you are correct, but your fatalist 'analysis' is nothing short of a smoke-screen for a desire to see it fail imho. A look at the children growing up today in many parts of London will show that the 'races' do mix, as will a look at many of London's workplaces. And in some sense I think we have to accept a sort of "parallel lives" form of coexistence; it happens when Britons move to non-English-speaking nations. I have friends of other religions, from many other countries and we all get on even if our communities lead largely separate lives. We should endeavour to teach our children together, however, and religious state-funded schools should be abolished whether they be Hindu (1?), Sikh (1?), Jewish (about 20), Roman Catholic (about 2000) or CoE (About 4000). This is particularly important in Northern Ireland, but should also be brought in on the mainland too as formative childhold interactions have a lasting impact into adulthood.

Me

Jul 8th, 2008 - 10:51 AM

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The Grangetown shree swaminarayan temple:

under construction:

Now they had an amazing development update page during construction but I cant find it now...

Spence

Jul 8th, 2008 - 10:54 AM

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I agree that muklticulturalism hasn't been altogether successful, but I think that's mainly down to a lack of education and understanding. It's ridiculous that some immigrants living in Britain don't know how to speak English and have viryually no real knowledge about our society. But it's equally ridiuclous that many British people are inherantly suspicious of immigrants and assume that they're taking our jobs and breeding terrorism. At the end of the day without immigrants there would be severe shortages in some sectors, and as a society I think the more faiths and cultures we have in our country the better we can understand the world. It just requires a bit more effort on both sides.

With regard to a loss of nerve of western society, I don't think thats a particularly valid argument since the UK is basically a nation of immigrants. What is the British equivilant of a native American?

Karl

Jul 8th, 2008 - 11:37 AM

Re: Madina Mosque

Cambo

If you think the Welsh/Scottish are more disdainful of the English than vice versa then I suggest you have a look at the comments left on the websites of the Times/Telegraph/Guardian/Daily Mail/Independent. I haven't looked on the Sun/Daily Express/Daily Star websites but I suspect some of the comments will be equally as rabid. If the equivalent was published in the Western Mail then the local Race Equality Commission would be working 24 hours a day dealing with the complaints from the various English folk who are feeling 'racially abused.'

URBANO

Jul 8th, 2008 - 11:43 AM

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Thank. Karl. I appreciate the generous clarification

Its a huge and very difficult subject.And I am certainly not clever enough to address it properly. All I am saying is that unthinking acceptance of the mosque there as a good multicultural thing is lightweight thinking.

Happy to continue the debate if anyone wants to

I think it all has something to do with the West having lost its way to a degree, believing in little more than materialism,a pretty wafer thin basis for a sustained , confident and enduring society.At the heart of multiculturalism ( in the sense of different racial groups being able to live without having to integrate, to any degree, into the host society or indeed other immigrant groups)is a loss of nerve, of confidence, in our own society.

I do not think multicultarism has worked or will work.

What can be done? Very difficult indeed. I think at new generations wil soften it up atthe edges , but so far as the core groups are concerned I can see no true and real integration for a very long time, if ever.

On a purely practical level I agree it is crazy to allow people into this country who cannot even speak English.

Cambo_Dai

Jul 8th, 2008 - 11:44 AM

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Karl, I never made a comparison between English anti-Welsh sentiment and Welsh anti-English sentiment. I just commented that I felt that the Welsh weren't generally disdainful or anti-English apart from a minority.

If we would get onto the subject, however, I would say that you get a bunch of "little Englander" types who may be particularly vitriolic, but that the average English person is just disinterested, or doesn't see a differnece between England and Wales. On the other hand most Welsh people have an opinion on England. Little neighbours talk and care more about their big neighbours than vice versa.

Karl

Jul 8th, 2008 - 12:23 PM

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Thats true, you didn't make the comparison and I suspect that I've given your comments my own interpretation based on past posts.

As for the Welsh being more interested in the Welsh-English question then that has to be the case. I'm sure Ukranians take greater pleasure in getting one over on Russia than vice versa, the Austrians with Germany, Croations with Serbia etc etc. On the whole though - again outside sport - there is not a deluge of blatant anti English sentiment in the Welsh media as vice versa. If there was then I cannot accept that it would go unchecked. I don't actually think it would occur in such depth.

And thats the point I guess. Whilst some of us (by that I mean the Welsh) may obsess about England/English actual anti-Englishness is pretty tame and usually based on historical inaccuracy. It's usually within the context of the Welsh language and supposed effect of monoglot English speakers on it's health. I see the opposite with the anti-Welsh comments I read from 'little Englanders' venting their spleen on the comments pages of the broadsheets websites. There is no circumspection, no tempering of language and they are given free reign to say almost whatever they want.

As an analogy I am reminded of being in a toilet in a pub in Oswestry (I don't make a habit of this I hasten to add) that strange town that can't decide if it's Welsh or English. Staring at the graffiti on the wall there was the legend 'Wales for the Welsh' no doubt scrawled by a confused local or a nationalistic visitor. Underneath that was the slogan 'Gas all Welsh bastards.' To me that summed up the difference - we may make more of a deal of it but when the English bite they bite hard.

Kyle

Jul 8th, 2008 - 12:32 PM

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It's a classic symptom of out group hostility. Social psychologists have been talking about it for years.

It's just a simple prejuidice against a group that you do not belong to. A different football team, region, religion, culture or anything that you see as being different.

It isn't exclusively Welsh. The English are as good at it as everyone else. They do anti-everything-but-English very very well. Do the English love the Germans, Australians and French ? Is the BBC biased towards London and England ?

If you can't accept that then you need to use your eyes and ears more often I'm afraid. It isn't my nationalistic leanings that think that either.

I happen to think that ALL human beings show it in different ways and my education in Psychology has made me realise something quite simple. It's wrong, but it's just human nature and one of the reasons why social psychologists have a job in the first place.

Jantra

Jul 8th, 2008 - 12:59 PM

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its the most basic of human instincts emerging...protect your own at all costs.

now I have my own views on the ethnic minorities eg those who were once part of the empire and our forefathers accepted that they were, well then they have every right to be considered British irrespective of race or ethnicity. However, I do disagree with the continued influx of immigrants (not so much migrant workers) who appear to just take from this island without giving much in return. any new arrival should be made to swear an oath of allegiance to the UK and all its legal institutions (separating politics and religion from the oath) and should be made to attend classes to learn any one of the four official languages of the isles (the preference should be their own).

Then they should give a cash bond to the government and show that they have means of support and that they will not take in the way of benefits until they have accrued sufficient credit by way of tax / stamp suffered. Asylum seekers would be exempt from these qualifications.

Personally, the 'whites' need to do more (by whites I refer to those of us who inherently see ourselves as British/Welsh irrespecitve of colour/race) to assist the 'non whites' (ie those who do not see themselves as indigenously British etc) as integrating into our society whilst sharing each others culture. The British have been doing this for time immemorial and its what makes our island so much different from other nations.

today, i saw a sign on the side of a van owned by the Singh Brothers Electricians. There was a picture of a cowboy with the words underneath....you've tried the cowboys, now try the indians....brilliant...thats integration in my eyes, very witty and people who are prepared to make a joke of their own (shared) identity. Granted Indians is used in the incorect context but I thought it was a great joke and you could hazard a guess that despite being called Singh, and having indian heritage, these guys would most certainly be British in their outlook.

How has this come about...well the British of India/Pakistani/Afro-Carribean etc origin are possibly second or third generation and by now are well placed in all aspects of our society. Their forefathers came to these isles and worked hard and installed a work ethic in most. Just like the Indeginous British you get workshy lazy bone idle aresholes who deserve nothing but in the main, they are all decent law abiding people.

However, the muslim community (not so much in Cardiff) is a pretty recent phenomenan and despite most muslims being aghast at terrorism, they do feel its a them and us attitude and as such a siege mentality can sink in. Cardiff is lucky in that its muslim community is very well established and as such they appear to be quite secular in general. I know of many muslims and many will have a glass of wine or beer on the basis that it is legal within this country and that it is socailly acceptable.

Ignorance and fear forms prejudice yet deep down all men (and women) are born the same. It is a weak and unintelligent mind that bleeives the colour of a persons skin or their (relgious) beleifs can make them appear to be different.

I'm not trying to go anywwhere with this post, just putting down some thoughts and observations.

James

Jul 8th, 2008 - 1:35 PM

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Well, I'm just glad that the communities mix comparatively well in Cardiff. We probably could teach a few other places a thing or two.

I think a reason for this is obviously the long history of non-white people in Cardiff, as well as the short history of Cardiff being a large settlement. Very few people in Cardiff have families stretching back hundreds of years in the area. We are all immigrants, and many in Cardiff recognise that more than other cities I feel.

Also, the Wales factor. Being a small nation, with a 'big nasty neighbour' there is a sense of welcoming to the fold, that I don;t think you get in some parts of England.

Anyway, there's racist idiots within all races and all cities in the UK, but I do feel Cardiff fares better than most.

I'm English, but there's an increasingly depressing strand of English culture that is remarkably insular and ignorant about other cultures, including those within other countries of the UK. I far favour Wales' relationship with nationalism than England's anyway.

Jantra

Jul 8th, 2008 - 1:56 PM

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James

I'm not so sure about nationalism these days. I'm fast becoming an internationalist. nationalism is a misguided 19th century concept that almost distroyed the planet in the 20th.

There is nothing wrong with saying you have pride in coming from wales/england etc...but to actually beleive you have superiority over anotehr due to nationality/race is something altogether different.

My best man is english, all my best friends are english, my wife is english, my two sons are half english, they will speak english and welsh. to me that sums up what we are as a nation. mongrels. no one will ever tell me my sons do not deserve to live in Cardiff due to their mothers ancestry. I think this mongrel island is what makes us unique...we do embrace cultures over time, although we may initially 'react' to them being here....how many of you live in a bungalow or love a ruby on a saturday night...who here thinks that lager or cider is a british drink? who here likes a pizza or a cup of coffee...how many of you drive japanese cars whilst listneing to your german radio before driving to the cinema to see a top american film. the world is a small place...be proud of who you are, but don't assume you are better than anyone else due to their identity.

Cambo_Dai

Jul 8th, 2008 - 2:29 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

It was the IFS annual lecture last night, this time given by Lib Dem treasury spokesperson Vince Cable. It was a largely apolitical affair (talking about the credit crunch and his plans for helping deal with it plus aiding social policy - a massive £20 billion social housing purchase) but he had one or two good and bad things to say about Brown. The good was that he believed Brown had continued Britains long-standing position as a bastion of free-trade. And I think this is true - here the government pays little heed to shrill and reactionary voices calling for protectionism; unfortunately, the USA and France pay rather too much attention to their producer interest groups. But I think this shows something great about Britain: it is surprisingly open to other cultures and influences, absorbing language, culture, cuisine, goods, services, and exporting the same. In some ways it is a global island - and, perhaps, my Britishness reflects this whilst my lack of real attachment to any strong Welsh identity reflects a view that this would be more closed, insular and 'protected'.

Wizard

Jul 8th, 2008 - 2:46 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

I disagree. I think that Cardiff (representing Wales) is one of the most open, tolerant and accomodating cities in the UK. I don't think that Cardiff is more insular than its peer cities in the rest of the UK. In the past say forty years, Cardiff hasn't encountered any of the 'racially aggravated' social disturbances that have characterized other UK cities.

Jantra

Jul 8th, 2008 - 3:05 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

I personally think Cardiff is very cosmopolitan and that generally you find its communities do have a mixture of ethnicity. the docks is the obvious example but you go to Llandaff or Cyncoed/Lisvane and you can see just how integrated we have become.

I'm all for it, you take the best that each culture has and weed out the chaff and you have a better society for it.

Cambo_Dai

Jul 8th, 2008 - 3:54 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

If that 'I disagree' was aimed at me, I would argue that Cardiff is a rather unusual in Wales. I grew up in Pontypridd where theres a rather great deal of anti-immigrant and minority sentiment expressed quite openly, and probably much more unexpressed. I'm not a Cardiff resident but I can't imagine that communities are that integrated - spacially, segregation is quite high, although there is a growing movement for wealthier minorities to move to the north Eastern suburbs (Cyncoed and Lakeside in particular).

But this wasn't so much about race-relations as to general openess of the country to outside influences. Wanting to protect the 'unique' culture of Wales, and particularly the language, government policy and the actions of voluntary groups seems to prioritise this over what I might term "world education". Hence some 80% of primary schools in England now teach foreign languages - I don't know what the proportion is in Wales but from a brief perusal of Estyn reports in RCT its got to be much much lower.

Jantra

Jul 8th, 2008 - 4:06 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

Dai

my best mate in school was 2nd generation italian. there were all sorts of races colours and creeds in my school. all sorts. the one thing we all agreed on was that we were welsh. colour or race never came in to it.

some of my closest friends today are of afro-carribean origin. who cares. they my mates and they have pretty much the same ideals as me.

Cardiff has been very cosmopolitan for a long long time. far more so than most if not all UK cities...just a peculiarity of its rapid 19th century influx and growth which happened at the same time.

James

Jul 8th, 2008 - 4:33 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

To reply to jantra..

I don't like nationalism, and I too see myself as an internationalist. However, I recognise that every nation has a strain of nationalism within it's culture, and I find Englands subdued, miserable, ignorance fuelled strain of nationalism far more deplorable than Wales', which ultimately is about self-determination, as opposed to colonisation which England seems to love. Again, I say this as an Englishman, but going home to the westcountry one realises how insular the place is. Wales, and very much so cardiff, is outward looking. Of course, we have to be to an extent, but whatever the means are, the ends are what counts.

Generally speaking I find Cardiff a very cosmopolitan, very diverse and interesting place. 4 universities, the fabled Italian immigration, the long history of muslim influence, being a capital city etc all help. Also, as opposed to cities such as say Bristol, we have the welsh language issue, and the fairly varied types of immigration from within Wales that plays an interesting role. Some Bristol based friends of mine always find places like the Cayo and Mochyn Du interesting, because they don't have that strand of history.

It may seem an anacronism to use welshness and it's differences as an example of being cosmopolitan, but it definately adds to Cardiff IMO.

Lyndon

Jul 8th, 2008 - 4:35 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

Is there any subject that Dai can't twist around into an attack on the Welsh language?

I'm almost impressed.

Karl

Jul 8th, 2008 - 4:46 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

I don't buy this idea that any increase in Welsh national sentiment or use of the Welsh language automatically leads to insularity. That seems to me to be a knee jerk reaction to a culture that one feels divorced from.

Having lived in England for 13 years I don't feel that my Welsh friends are any more insular or for that matter any more internationalist than my English friends.

jantra

Jul 8th, 2008 - 5:36 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

Karl / James

I believe we are saying the same thing...Cardiff is cosmopolitan...it takes more than a few trendy wine bars to become a cosmopolitan city...you need integration and acceptance of all as being equal. i'm not saying racism or creed-ism (sic) is not alive and well in Cardiff but generally in the main the people of cardiff are a mongrel mix of races and thats what makes us special.

Kyle

Jul 8th, 2008 - 5:55 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

That's the trouble with the British, we think we are open to people who are different to us and are more tolerant than other nations. I'm not sure that's entirely true. We like to think we are and our immigration policy shows that, but the facts are different. I just think other countries are more honest about how they really feel.

It's hard to say that the majority of British are not like that, because the majority haven't been interviewed or affected by it.
Just look at cities in the north of England and how the BNP has grown in popularity there.

It is just one example, along with a few others, of how insular the English really are...just like the rest of the world including us insular little Welsh.

Cambo_Dai

Jul 8th, 2008 - 6:00 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

I really think language is an important barometer. Countries relaxed about language tend to be relaxed about cultural influences from overseas: the English language is open, and English-British culture is too; curries, bangra, music-of-black-origin, an open economy, relatively tolerant views of economic migration (or at least a government that tends to sideline the most virulent anti-immigrant viewpoints). On the other hand France with its grand committee and institutions to police the french language is closed culturally (shops must devote no more than a certain percentage of floorspace to non French music, foreign films must be dubbed as opposed to subtitled etc), economically, its minorities are even more 'separated' than ours, and has a bigger far-right tradition.

Okay this is a dreadful use of correlation as causality but I think that a constant focus on the local/regional as opposed to national or supra-national identities does lead to a rather narrower world view. In the English-speaking world, this is partly offset by English being the new 'world language', which is a luxury Welsh doesn't enjoy. Before people jump on me I'm not saying we should abandon Welsh or the state should stop efforts to facilitate its use only that we need to keep in mind that efforts to forge a stronger universal Welsh identity may dilute attachment to a Britishness, or wider identities and perspectives.

Jeremy

Jul 8th, 2008 - 6:21 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

This thread has moved on a pace.

Two little points - religion when taken seriously does not sit comfortably with most "British" white folk. A veneer is okay but we shy away from people who take it seriously. For example was listening to some item on the news about the general synod and really did not understand the language being used and this is the point I do not think we trust religion as we do not understand it very well. This is a big divide.

The other point with immigration is that it has just happened, no-one took your opinion, and most politicians have steered away from the subject for decades. This needs to be addressed for many reasons, ghettos in northern engerland, food security ie we are not self sufficient.

Wizard

Jul 8th, 2008 - 8:48 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

Yes David, that ‘I disagree’ was aimed at you. You inferred that insularity was a more prominent characteristic in Wales (than in the rest of the UK), in part brought on by the cultural baggage of the Welsh language. These are not your exact words but I think that they summarise your inference. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Cardiff might be ‘unusual’, but due to the relatively low population of Wales, it is also the best example of a city region that I can quote which can stand comparison with the areas that you probably have in mind elsewhere in the UK.

You might rightly state that there’s a tendency to express anti-immigrant and anti-minority sentiment amongst some of the folk in Pontypridd. However, I sincerely doubt that equivalent (in demographic terms) towns in England are any more enlightened in their attitudes. If I had drawn a comparison of foreign language uptake in RCT with England as a whole, I’m sure that you would have been the first to condemn me for comparing ‘apples with pears’, so I don’t see why you think it a fitting comparison.

Re: the ‘attitude towards minorities’ - Could two guys walk down the street holding hands in Pontypridd without enduring verbal abuse? No, but then neither could they in any part of England outside of Soho in London or Canal St in Manchester. Would a Sikh be any more likely to be called a 'turban head' in Newport Gwent than in Newport Isle of Wight, I doubt it.

My experience of Wales is that it is a very open and welcoming country. I work with asylum seekers and refugees and haven’t really ever heard any of them complain about being made to feel unwelcome. My main gripe is that they often refer to Wales as England. But then that is a natural consequence of the cumulative effect of most of the views that you have about Wales and its efforts to develop a separate identity within the UK that you so often rail against.

I really don’t understand why you think that Wales isn’t open to outside influences. If anything I feel that Wales has a less xenophobic and rather more internationalist perspective than you give it credit for.

jantra

Jul 8th, 2008 - 8:55 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

well said Wizard..

Ian, Bridgend

Jul 8th, 2008 - 11:33 PM

Re: Madina Mosque

Because of its own links to Ireland and Ireland's links to the continent when sea-travel was the only real option Wales was always far more outward-looking than many might think. The status of the Welsh language as a respected medium of theological and philosophical discussion came about not through leading Welsh scholars working in Wales but through their fleeing to Italy at the time of Catholic persecution under Henry VIII who analysed and systematised their own language under the auspices of the greatest libraries and academics of Europe. Comparatively few people within Wales and, probably, only Celtic scholars within England realise that the very first Welsh Grammar was written in Italian by Gruffudd Robert, perhaps the greatest Welsh scholar of the Renaissance, who was so respected in Italy that he became Father Confessor to Cardinal Borromeo, who himself dominated the Roman court, before returning to England under Mary's reversion to Catholicism.

The Welsh language was therefore known and respected as a Renaissance language of scholarship (a status only about fourteen European languages achieved) throughout Europe and is still recognised as such in Faculties of Celtic Languages (an area of study which is in expansion) the world over.

It has only ever been belittled and marginalised by people with an interest in doing so - mainly, of course, if it is perceived as an impenetrable mystery and therefore a possible threat - but scarcely by real Europeans with a broader perspective on world culture.