Doing a fair bit of reading up on these at the moment, (I have access to back issues of Motorsport, Autocar and The Motor at work...)

Wondering if there is any good idea of how many of TT cars were made and survive, (this includes what were called TT replicas at the time)?

I know that Martin Ayre's book says 5 or 6 but not sure if that sounds right. There were 2? sets of 3 plus Waite's crashed one was replaced and the Mille Miglia car was another. That makes at least 8.

Listing them from the back of the new book by Canning Brown as follows;
TT Rep Ulster U?? 411 - B G Bailey
TT Rep Ulster - B Belleroche
?? Ulster AXK 978, (incorrect reg. - AXK 828 from photos) - H Birkett
TT Rep Ulster - GW 82 - G HR Chaplin & ST Lush
TT Ulster (Rep?) - WA Cuthbert (Belleroche car)
TT Rep Ulster - CH Fish
TT Rep Ulster - I Henderson
TT Rep Ulster - AZ 3314 - D WM Montgomery (previously H Ferguson)
TT Rep Ulster - JR 3668 - D C Parish
TT Rep Ulster - HJ Searle
TT Ulster - GN 8198


Plus the Mille Miglia car driven by Goodacre and then left (& repainted red!) width Enzo Ferrari. This car had (has?) an English registration as reported in one of the magazines of the time. (I have a photo of Goodacre leaning on the car but it is from the side.)


I make that a minimum of 7, 6 different registrations above plus David Howes AUY 496, (which I believe will be at Brooklands next week). I noticed in the PWA7OC members list Chris Gould also has a TT replica.

Anyone got any more info they feel free to share? Also would be great to see some photos - seen the articles in the Grey mag recently but more is always good!

Just one question, and that's re the "Mille Miglia car repainted red". Are we sure that was the case? If you recall, when Goodacre handed over the cream TT Seven to the Italians well in advance of the race, he swapped it for an unblown Ulster in which he returned home. When the successful M-M sorty with the blown car was over, who's to say the cars weren't swapped back again, thus maybe Ferrari's red entry was in fact their original unblown car? As that Seven failed to start we would have to be lucky to find a pre-race photo of it. Cheers, Bill in Oz

Just one question, and that's re the "Mille Miglia car repainted red". Are we sure that was the case? If you recall, when Goodacre handed over the cream TT Seven to the Italians well in advance of the race, he swapped it for an unblown Ulster in which he returned home. When the successful M-M sorty with the blown car was over, who's to say the cars weren't swapped back again, thus maybe Ferrari's red entry was in fact their original unblown car? As that Seven failed to start we would have to be lucky to find a pre-race photo of it. Cheers, Bill in Oz

From the new book on the Mille Miglia - from an interview of Goodacre by Julian Hunt 1981;

"In Dieppe I met Arino & Pino Gandalphi from Mr Nicholl's Rolls-Royce agency in Milan> They had driven from Italy in an unblown Ulster which I was to take back to Austin's London service department in Oxford street. So the Gondolphis toook the race car through the Simplan Tunnel to Milan..."

Goodacre then gets the train to Italy and races the supercharged car.

It then says that according to Orsini and Zagari (The Scuderia Ferrari) the Scuderia had taken over a supercharged Austin Ulster which was probably the Goodacre / Trevisan car and entered it in the 1932 Mille Miglia. It was prepared by Nicholls, but although the crankshaft had exceeded its 40 hours racing life, it was not replaced and broke. As a result the car failed to start the race.

The painting it red bit could just be romantic legend...

It's always difficult to judge what is a completely original TT Car. There is probably one in existance that is close to original.

Should probably ask what 'parts' of TT cars still exist instead! Whether an original part / parts make(s) it an original TT car is another discussion entirely.

Scott

There seems to be some confusion. Unlike Frazer Nash cars Austin did not refer to their cars as replicas, so if you see a car referred to as an Ulster or TT replica it is a copy and not the genuine article. It should be born in mind that there are two types of TT cars. The 1929 cars had long scuttles with the petrol tank underneath as on a Chummy and they had the short pre 1928 type radiator. The chassis was based on the 1929 cars with the brakes coupled for the first time by fitting two front brake cables. The crankshaft was a circular web one still with an inch and an eighth crank pins. The 1930 and 1931 cars used the same coupled brake chassis as the production cars of the time. The engine was stronger and became progressively developed. The scuttle petrol tank formed part of the bodywork and they had the taller 1928/29 type radiator.
There are photos of the 1929 TT cars showing registration numbers OF 1857, OF 1858, OF 3128, OF 3129, OF 3130 and OF 3131. So there were at least six of these. There was also the car with wheel arches shown in Austin Pictorial History. It is not a TT car but is obviously based on them and was probably being considered as a production version. It is thought to be the same one that was owned by Des Montgomery and Harry Fergusson. I have no idea how many 1930/31 type cars there were.
The few existing TT cars are rather like Triggers Broom or the 100 year old axe which has ten new heads and 20 new handles. I am open to correction, but the only genuine TT parts that I know of are as follows :-
First the 1929 cars. Holland Birkett had a 1930/31 car which left the factory with a 1929 engine. This engine still exists. A 1929 body was fitted to a 1930 or 1931 Production Ulster chassis by an apprentice and that car still survives. I have a 1929 petrol and oil tanks, but they are too rusty to use and were only suitable for copying.
Of the 1930/31 cars there is one complete with its original body and I think chassis and engine in Canada. The late Mike Eyre restored GW 82 after it was badly damaged. He fitted a different frame and had a new body copied from the remains of the old one which I think was scrapped and fitted a production Ulster engine. Probably most of the remainder of the car is still original. Holland Birketts car still survives and is being restored and still has its original body. The Gorden Brettell single seater was made from a TT car and its engine and TT axles are still with it. At present it is fitted with the TT engine that originally came from GW 82. The Almack Special was also based on a TT car and it was rebuilt into the single seater owned by Robert Cowell. The remains of this car were found in Africa and it is now back in England most of the TT engine is still with it. Charles Goodacre built up a special TT type car in 1933 which was used by Austin for development. Many years later the engine found its way into the LMW Special. It is now in David Howes car. A TT car was broken up in London I think in the sixties. The body was scrapped but I believe that its chassis was fitted with a replica production body and that it still survives in Belgium. The petrol tank, Luvax shock absorbers and some other parts were fitted to a believed Works car which was rebodied with a body copied from GW 82 and is now in Ireland. Another petrol tank and oil tank survive on David Howes car.

That is brilliant, thanks Chris. When I get a bit more chance I will send an email with what I understand now.

There is a surprisingly muddled amount of (mis)information out there. Describing it as Trigger's broom appears to be spot on!

Can anyone post pictures of the Canadian TT car?

Congrats, Chris on such a comprehensive explanation. I'm pleased that unlike Canning Brown and elsewhere the word "probably" didn't occur once. (This is not meant to be a criticism of the Lady's excellent book but I have found many errors -eg - '24 Lands End to John O'Groats I think Bromhead drove a 12 not a Chummy - date of first Australian GP wrong - etc etc). But most thoughts on this subject have only been on TT models in the UK - what about the rest of the world? One example was Austin sending out all the mechanicals of a TT for Cyril Dickason to race in the '31 AGP. When Dickason later said it was all exactly the same as the winning Davis/Marsh 1930 Brooklands 500 racecar he was misquoted as having the actual car, but he told me not so. It's been hard to convince people here otherwise because of the "it must be true, it was in the paper" syndrome. Thanks again, Bill in Oz

Dear Bill
Thank you for your kind remarks, but I am sorry to disappoint you, I used the word probably twice.
I know practically nothing about the overseas TT type cars and would like to learn more.
All the Best Chris

A fascinating series of posts- last one dated June 15th 2007???
How did this get to the top of my list?

Tony.

Don't know, but I'm pleased it did.

Some of the info at the top is not right, and we now have the Candian car to add to the list at least.

ZI 9218 is the registration number but as this is a Republic of Ireland number I cannot use it in The UK/N.Ireland. There may be a chance if I can convince the local licensing authority the car is of significant historical importance and can have this verified by a recognised marque historian? Any ideas?
Simon

I thought the car thet you referd to was BLOOD ORANGE oaned by Adli Alibi

Can anyone explain to a thick Irishman why there were holes in the centre of the wheels for the works cars in the 1930 Irish GP and subsequent races that year? Was it for balancing, freighting off the boat or another reason? Each of the wheels on my car had these holes originally, now covered in.
Simon

Hi it is odd... but our ulster was run pre war in a team with e-works duck. Some of the wheels which are clearly seen in period pics have and still do have a hole in the centre! I have wondered if it was something to do with storing wheels for transport??

I suppose it could have been, but I just wonder if it was to mount them for balancing purposes? When the works cars came to both the TT and Irish GP they would have been winched on and off the boat but I don't think the hole was an aid to this. If the Ducks had similar holes this explanation falls apart as they did not travel to Ireland. Very strange?
Simon

Simon - Are you sure these holes were peculiar to the wheels on TT models? Around the same time, the Austin script was eliminated from the wheels and a hole (from memory about 5/8"?) appeared on all models. No one has been able to explain to me why this, my guess would have been for the Military models where cotton reels were fitted to carry the cars out of mud etc if it was only on a few, but not so - in this Country anyway. I doubt they were there for shipping purposes, as most freighting of cars by sea was done by cradling with planks underneath, then lifted by crane. Most export models of that era were shipped (ckd or complete) in crates. I just hope we are talking of the same sort of hole, otherwise I've wasted your time. If so, apologies. Cheers, Bill in Oz

Bill
Thanks, I do not know enough about all the models to say these holes were peculiar to the TT type cars. The Austin Harris website does show them on a number of the 1930 works cars and the Ducks now seem to have had them in 1931.
I wait a bit longer until I drill my wheels out again!
Simon

Simon - I realise this isn't helping you much with TT cars, but I had a quick skim through books with contemporary photos and found it's almost impossible to detect if a hole or not when the wheel is black. However, in Source book, page 304 (1930 Swallow), p315 (Campbell single seater), p329 (1931 Arrow), p330 (1933 Arrow, p333 (1931 Duck - curiously the Baumer car that he raced in Germany seems to have holes drilled in plated centres?), p350 (1932 Ihle) all seem to heve drilled centres. Hopefully owners of cars with these holes will come forward and help with (a) if they were plentiful, (b) in what period. Cheers, Bill in Oz

Bill
Thanks. All these little details about works cars, what do they add up to? I still wonder how many works cars actually existed in 1929, 1930 and 1931? I think three in each year, why have anymore? They were sold off for the following year, why not? For 1930 the Waite car was written off just up the road from me here in Ulster, the Harris' have a body similar to my car, is it not straight forward now for the 1930 cars? Have I the Brooklands 500 winning car? Shock, horror! The seat cushion was detailed BRO 92 on my car in Canada, sadly destroyed by the then owner in 2005, the Frazer Nash Double Twelve car in 1930 and ultimately the Davis/March 500 car?
For discussion?
Simon

DREAM ON....YOU ARE NOW STARTING TO TAKE THE PI..SSS
p.s Simon my aunty, ANNIE TOBIN. Actress .Look her up was WAITES P.A fact...enjoy your car and stop trying to recreate HISTORY,...
your car is Special,BUT NOT THAT SPECIAL.
Are the Block and Crank.Developement ,and marked with a 9B not 9C I think not, Gord sent me all the details 3 years ago, WHY NO PICS........
LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING DETAILED PHOTOS.BENXX

Well he has a 1930 works car,there is no doubt over that at all. Given that Waites car was not repaired after its accident at the TT then it is one of the other two cars for that year.

I wouldn't say he is taking the ***** just trying to work out what car he has. Out of interest what did happen to the BRDC 500 winning car and where is it now?

Scott

Who says it's a works car?

That's the bit that I doubt.

ALL I can say is show me the ...MONEY
I, and hopefully, others would like to see photos of this NICE and proper.. RESTORED... car.

Why is it not a works car? It is most certainly not a lash up.

Scott

It certainly isn't a lash up, it's an original "TT car" with history, that history however shows that it is a "customer car" not a works car.

Check out my twin cam..I must admit it is missing a cam,and it is a rep..REP
But ,Hay ho,I am proud of it, and think it is a nice looking car.

The Sullivan/Ireland/Canada/Ireland TT car.......

Car number, B3 2053
Chassis number, 128978
Engine number XA 155
Registered Dublin 1931, ZI 9218 to W. Sullivan
Built May 1931 for that year's Irish races

You may want to do some more research then.

The details regarding registration, ownership and build dates are anything but correct.


Scott

Yes it was supplied to a customer, but works teams have been known to sell off old works cars to customers. Alfa Romeo did it, Maserati did it, all the manufacturers did it even into the 1960s with Cooper and Lotus. That is the point I am making. Why not Austin with their remaining 1930 cars? Also are you sure about Billy Sullivan? If we could establish or agree (about anything!)how many works cars were built in 1930 we should be able to prove or disprove any theories.
Simon

As a mildly interested bystander with little detailed knowledge I fail to understand how a reply stating that
"The details regarding registration, ownership and build dates are anything but correct"
can be made without actually giving the "correct" information?

Surely if we all share a similar interest in Austin 7's and their sporting history I don't understand why all parties with some knowledge don't just publish what they know rather than leaving us bystanders confused and to be honest rather tired.

Charles

Here we go guys,these are some numbers Gord sent me about this car.

Crank case 9c 221

gearbox case 9c 229p

rear springs 9c 142

steering box 9c 102

break pedal 9e 106

waterpump case 9c 19

inlet manifold parts 9c

now come on Simon ,picturesssssssssssssssss

I thought the pictures were on this thread:

http://pub25.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=2099944454&frmid=5&msgid=863436&cmd=show

They are from when the previous owner had it.

The Sullivan bit is on the registration ledgers, go and have a look for yourself if you want to, Dad spent days searching for it.

What are you trying to prove that the car is?
And what have you found out so far, without knowing that we can't tell what you are talking about!

Hi Austin
The first information provided from Dublin showed the car was not taxed until 1932. You are now saying it was taxed to W. Sullivan in 1931. There was an Ulsterman Billy Sullivan from County Down, but I cannot understand why he would have taxed a car in The Irish Republic. The continuation tax book for Z1 9218 shows first taxed 18/7/32. It gets more complicated? Hoping we can sort this bit out. I can go to Dublin and check again if you think it is necessary.
Thanks
Simon

I'm not saying anything about it being taxed!

Car number, B3 2053
Chassis number, 128978
Engine number XA 155
Registered Dublin 1931, ZI 9218 to W. Sullivan
Built May 1931 for that year's Irish races

Speak to my father about it, he put all the info together.

The late Ken Warren & I were lent Charles Goodacre's photo album in 1981 with his own written captions on backs of pics. See Assoc. mags 81D & 82B. I have professional prints of Goodacres originals which show more detail than shown in mags (they were dot-screened for printing). Two which didn't get in the mag are: 3 works cars in the pits at '34 LCC Relay captioned "Racing cars through the ages. Left to right '29-'31-'34. Waite car now monoposto" The other is captioned "Loading up on the boat to go to Irish Grand Prix-5/6th June 1931" showing an unnumbered car being loaded with straps round the wheels for lifting, not through wheel centres. Perhaps the holes you describe were for fitting the wheel discs which were being experimented with at that time? See 81d page 14 with discs on rear only as that photo's caption said they removed the front ones as the wind was making handling difficult. I have a copy of SCH Davis's book "Motor Racing" published by Iliffe in 1932 with a lovely chapter about the 1930 500 and a photo of that car crossing the finish line. I hope this is of interest, unfortunately, being a computer novice I don't know how to post the pics.

This is then before Kavanagh had the car and indeed Andy Nolan?

There is a record of the car being with the Austin Dept (i think its the repair depot) in London, under Mr Abrahams supervision during February of 1931 which would contradict it being built in May of 1931. Maybe this date in May of '31 is a date of dispatch from the works into private hands??

Scott

The car was registered to W Sullivan, he/she probably worked at Lincoln and Nolans.

No idea who Billy Sullivan is, Sullivan is quite a common name after all.

Mr Abrahams ran the experimental department.

Am I right in saying that experimental department used part of the repair depot at Holland Park Hall? Bob Wyatt mentioned to me in conversation previously that Austins had a small corner set aside in the Holland Park depot and the main showroom in Oxford St.

Cheers

Scott

Hi scot and Simon,your car is a very nice car,well it was when I last saw photos of it,but who knows now since you are obviously not willing to share upto date information,and now seem convinced it is something different than I and others always belived it to be.
I sugest you try and contact Chris Gould or Martin Eyre,
Hopefully the can put you back on the straight and narrow.
As I Said in a previous post your car has the incorect engine for it to have run in the 1930, 500 mile race at Brooklands.

No one ever said that the engine was used in the BRDC 500. It is extremely rare for racing cars of that period to have the engine which they first started out with, let alone the ones from different events. If you look at the history of works teams, for example Alfa, Mercedes et al, the most common theme is that the first prepared engine went into the first prepared chassis, and then after a race the first rebuilt/prepared engine once again went into the first available chassis. Some engines on the other hand can just end up on floor of the works and a more up to date version used.

Because the car does not have an engine of the type purported to have been used by the works in the BRDC 500 does not in any way mean that the car can be dismissed as one of the works cars from 1930.

In reference to the pictures, you've obviously seen the car as restored and there are pictures of it like that posted on this site. It still looks the same so why post more copies of the same pictures???


Scott

Why not post more detailed pictures????
I like and admire the car. I just do not understand your your provenance.
Also when the car is out and about,will it be shrouded in a black cloth,
P.S how much??

Unfortunately I don't actually own the car so I've no detailed pictures to add to the discussion other than what is in circulation already. The ones floating about I didn't think were too bad, they show the car before, during and after it was restored. Gave a pretty good impression of what the car looked like etc.

In terms of provenance its really quite simple and not at all complicated.

It is one of the 1930 works cars that was re-fettled in early 1931 by the works in preparation for the coming year and then sold on to Dublin in or around May of that year to be used in the Irish GP which was in July. Entered by Andy Nolan who was a partner in Lincoln & Nolan for the 1931 Irish GP and 1931 TT and has a continuous history of owners and competition participation from then on to the present day.


How much for what???


Scott

Given that the records that Graham Harris identified show it as a 1931 delivered car do you have documentary evidence of the 1930 origin and the "refettling"? That would be very interesting.

Charles

Is it going to be vermillion. {BLOOD ORANGE}.How is the nice bluemills Red steering wheel going to change to Black,and I will give a couple of Hung parliment QUID to look under the shroud ,and make sure there are a couple of twin fillers

Charles,

I wouldn't doubt that the delivery date to Ireland was 1931, most likely the May date which is mentioned. The line I'm following is that the 1931 date Graham Harris mentions is the actual sale /departure date for the car leaving the works and into private ownership. There is evidence of the car being under the control of the department in London during February of 1931. I don't have it in my possession but it most certainly does exist. Following on from that, contemporaries of the owners/drivers of the car during that period in Ireland, voiced that it was known then (and still is), that the car was one of the works cars. On top of that there is also reference in the printed media of the time to the car being 1930.

At the end of the day when this car was purchased Simon was happy enough in the knowledge that it had competed in the 1931 Irish GP and TT and then had the Irish competition history after that. His main interest is in Irish Motorsport. Certainly when we discussed initially about it being a brand new customer car in 1931 we had our doubts as it did not fit in entirely with the practice of works teams selling on cars at the time. I've outlined this before that the works teams always sold off the previous years used cars in order to help finance their motorsport. Ferrari did it with the 8C Alfa's of the same time. Cars would run in the Mille Miglia & Targa Florio and then be sold onto wealthy privateers. They did not build them new cars to go out and compete directly with their own team.

All we have done is look at this car in the same light, basically that it had a competition life before it was sold by the works in 1931.

Now the two of us have spent the past 6 months examining this. We did not set out to prove anything in particular, just to find out about this cars life prior to coming to Ireland. If nothing was found prior to 1931 then it doesn't diminish from what the car is anyhow. However from looking at the photographic evidence we have from 1930, 31 and later events and tests, coupled with race reports, publications, documents & correspondence by drivers and contemporaries at that time along with later owners, there is overwhelming evidence to say that this car was a member of the 1930 Works Austin Team.

For people to say that this is taking the P I S S is really just not helpful. This car is an interesting car and I know that everyone would agree on that. It also is most likely a very special car, of which no other exists.






I'm not really sure what you are actually talking about but will endeavor to interpret.

The original colour on the original panels is Blood Orange or Vermillion if you wish to call it that. And yes that is the paint colour below the buff/cream/magnolia etc etc that was still present.....

Steering Wheel remains red as produced. Why would it change to black??? These wheels were presented at Brooklands and available in the colour to match that of the car. Not all drivers had them but it is suggested that they were awarded by Blumels for publicity purposes to a driver who won at Brooklands, now whether that is a class win or outright win I am not clear on. However it is striking how this is the only red wheel on an Austin Seven Ulster.

Twin fillers?? If you are referring to the twin filler necks on the bulkhead tank of the BRDC 500 car then you will be well aware that that tank was mounted on the bulkhead and as such did not require twin filler holes to be drilled through the front unlike the 1929 cars which had their tanks mounted from underneath the scuttle. 1929 Cars will have holes in the scuttle for twin filler necks to come through. 1930 Cars will not.

What do you want to see under the shroud?

Scott

Thanks for your lengthy explanation.

I'd perhaps take odds with the comparison of the practices by Scuderia Ferrari in selling off old cars to that practiced at Longbridge. When there's a production line throwing ut tens of thousands of essentially similar cars a year the motivation to sell off old works cars as "new" is very different from that of a sub-contracted race department dealing with specialist cars produced in miniscule numbers where selling off the old cars was probably a key component of income.

The records that Graham Harris identified show the car as early 1931, not 1930. That's clear from the chassis number and the car number. Therefore either the records are wrong, Graham was mistaken or the numbers have been changed (by over-stamping etc). Until that's resolved to the statifaction of an established marque expert like Martin Eyre or Chris Gould, along with the other evidence that you've found then I'm sorry to say that I'm a doubter.

Good luck

Charles

Without reading all the previous comments I think we all realise that in most cases the surviving 'TT Austins' are not necessarily the composed of all the bit originally assembled on that particular car. It is almost certain that the works swapped bits around and with regards to the BRDC 500 car, it was probably composed out of bits. The body certainly apears not to have been new, thought the twin filler caps were not the fuel tank, but a blower and an engine oil reserve tank(modified petrol tank. I suspect bits and pieces were swapped around as and when, possibly even bodies. It is highly likely that if a new chasis was required etc they would simply have taken a chassis and stamped over the number, left the production number or left blank as MGs were known to have done on at least one Q Type.