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Anyone has any info about this car
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170948500276&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:GB:1123
I was just getting to grips with the link thingy to try it out when you beat me to it Ruairidh!!
Location: Farnham
What is it about these cars???
Is this another the 'real genuine original copy' similar to that which has been for sale a number of times recently in UK. It doesn't seem to have a magneto motor with a three bearing crank though.
Being very picky, why does such a good looking car(from the pictures it is anyway) have a knobbly top hose and strange red plug leads and ends. Is the cut out right for an early car?
Still it seems to have sold - or has it, like the 'other' GE which keeps re-appearing?
Tony.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
There is something a little strange in the appearance of this car - I think it is because the head lamps are mounted too high up. I believe also that the radiator shell should be nickel plated, and the wing mounted sidelamps are incorrect - they should be much smaller, and be combined side and tail lamps.
Being even more "picky" , the upholstery is incorrectly pleated, and I'm not sure about the bonnet fastening arrangements...........!
Regards,
Ashley
Location: Bracing east Lincs, United Kingdom
The head lights are incorrectly mounted. A Gordon England 'hallmark' is that the headlights are fixed to the radiator cowl rather than the wings. The rad cowl should be nickelled and the sidelights are similar with facetted lenses.
Looks a decent enough car but I don't think Gordon England ever had much to do with it!
Okay, I've learnt my lesson, so I'm not going to shout fake! However, I would like to make one point.
It appears that a pretty reasonable job has been done of the body, but why have so many silly little mistakes been made that could otherwise have made the car look a lot more like the genuine article?
Nevertheless, it would be great fun to loon around in!
Location: Near Bicester
Heres's a couple of anomalies to add into the discussion.
1926 GE Cup (photographed in 1926) with what appears to be a painted rad shell, no sidelights and a bonnet strap (looks to be a very early body by the shape of the doors and the bonnet side hinge line)...
And another period shot taken in Brazil around 1929 showing large wing mounted headlamps (and a fully opening windscreen) ...
Ruairidh, If you look carefully , i think P&H type side lights are mounted on the scuttle , just forward of the passengers hand . My 1928 cup had them fitted there.
Location: Oxon
You are Correct Nic, well spotted.
This picture is a good a reference as I have found for the most popular/common style of Cup Model, lovely!
Surely if the buff log book is still with it (as per the Blackbush auction), all will be revealed in 5 mins.
The windscreen on the Brazil photo looks like that fitted to the A7 Gordon England Stadium.
Bryan
Location: Hertfordshire
Yes, I think you are quite correct Bryan,
Ruairidh,
Possibly the headlights on the Brazil Cup are the same as your Stadium photo thus explaining the absence of sidelights on the Brazil Cup.
Bryan
Location: Hertfordshire
There is a bit of a mixture, I reckon the Rad Shell is the same style as the one shown on the Stadium as well.
Export modifications? Last of the Cup Models??
All very interesting! I think the 1926 Cup being an early model used the same painted radiator as used on factory 7's of that date. The scuttle mounted side lamps also appear to be an early feature. Some of the Brooklands had them also. I wonder if the position was altered for legal reasons?
As for the wing mounted headlamps, I suspect that these were fitted to the last models only. It would be easier to use the standard Austin wing brackets than mess about altering the rad cowl etc?
Judging by the front tyre on the 1926 photo, either the car was being cornered a bit enthusiastically or it needed some more wind in it!
What's the verdict on the Brazilian car? Later style Radiator shell?
Also, is the bonnet painted with crackle-style paint or is it covered with the same leather-cloth as the body?
The 'most common' style seems to have a 'dull' finish bonnet?
Tony.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
When is a Gordon England cup Genuine or not? The Cup is made of wood and I would suggest very few exist, in the condition they left the factory, the example of the cup seen at beaulie which had never been touched,modified,restored from new, although a wreck was a rare piece of motoring history. My question is this when is a Austin genuine, it would appear from the discussion regarding the cup that there were several variations of the cup (thanks Ruairidh )for posting pics several have been reconstructed, modified, and are copies, so what is wrong with that? I have the original engine to my cup in the garage the cup now has a racing engine under the bonnet carandclassic.co.uk/classic_cars.php?category=3&make=3®ion=&country=&era=&advert_type=1&price=&keyword=gordon+england+&S.x=59&S.y=11>does it make it any the less genuine.
I ask the question how many owners have tweaked their cars, replaced wings, fettled parts, and added extra lights, mascots ect,
As to the price of parts Some are stupid, a gear lever extension £70 plus a pile of rusty bits For £££ remember the market will pay what it sees fit when some banks are paying 1% or less why not buy something that might appreciate!
I suggest we should not be so critical of owners cars who in the end are just trying to keep the mark alive.
Discuss!!
Location: Near water
Rather than getting drawn into this one, I will quote (one of my favourite quotes) the famous Jenks on the subject:
Denis Jenkinson said:
"Original"
Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have to
have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the
Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes as close to an
original racing car as it is possible to get.
The “old-car” industry frequently uses degrees of originality, such as
“nearly original”, “almost original”, even “completely original”, but all
such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing
car that has only had a new set of tyres and a change of sparking plugs
since it was completed is no longer “original”. Many components have
remained “original”, such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles and so on,
and reproduction parts are made to “original drawings” and “original
material specification”, but this does not make them “original” parts, nor
does a complete car built from such components qualify as “original”,
regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is
nothing more than a “reproduction” or “facsimile”.
"Genuine"
This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and
can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous
lives, with no occasions when they “disappeared into limbo” or changed
their character in any way. Most E.R.A.s come into this category as they
have been raced continuously, which has meant the replacing of
numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never
been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been
altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A. as “Romulus” is
not “original”, as it has been repainted, reupholstered, new tyres have
been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine;
but it is unquestionably “Genuine”.
"Authentic"
This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered
career, through no fault of its own, but has never disappeared from
view. The “Entity”, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has
always been around in some form or other, but has now been put back
to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some
subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old
Grand Prix car that was converted into a road-going sports car when its
useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine
replaced by a touring version, and eventually being allowed to
deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its
racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank,
new wheels made, new bodywork, instrument panel, seat, upholstery
and so on, all of which were missing. The “Entity” that started life as the
Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the
labours can justifiably be described as “Authentic”. There is no question
of it being “Original”, and to describe it as genuine would be unfair to its
sister cars that remained Grand Prix cars all their lives, even though
such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due
to the ravages of time and use.
"Resurrection"
Some racing cars, when they reached the end of their useful life, were
abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use
on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an
acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still
scattered about. There have been numerous cases where such
components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a
new car; a new chassis frame and new body were required and, from the
bare bones of the ashes or the original, another one appears. It cannot
claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an
authentic car. At best it is a “Resurrection” from the dead, or from the
graveyard.
"Re-construction"
This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of
components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of
the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these
small particles a complete new car is built, its only connection with the
original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left
over when decomposition set in.
"Facsimile"
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an
original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model,
for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only
be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built
by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at
best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars, but such a situation
is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from
sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is
remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of
genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its
value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to
Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from
the originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent
about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real
thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the
constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type
E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built.
The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous
owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car,
and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is
very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the
paying public are gullible.
"Special"
This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain
of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever
been finished! It may be finished sufficiently to allow it to race, but
inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he
is still racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it
will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting on a new one.
The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car,
by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean either that the
car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or
he can continue the process of development where the originator left off.
The nice thing about specials is that they are a law unto themselves and
do not need to be put into any sort of category. A special can be totally
accepted as “Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or facsimile”.
"Duplication"
This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the
lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix
Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an
incomplete car as a “basket case” and with the left hand sold another
incomplete car as a “box of bits”. The two buyers eventually found
suitable second-hand components to replace the missing parts, or had
new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand Prix Bugattis where
there has only been one. Naturally each owner claims “authenticity” for
his complete car. The Bugatti Owners Club – and the majority of its
members – strongly disapprove of this practice.
Unfortunately the disease has spread to many other makes, especially
those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business
borders on fraud.
"Destroyed"
A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved
in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in
recognizable shape or form.
"Scrapped"
This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team
and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful
components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on
the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a
chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap and used to re-create a
new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the
factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, than
that car has gone for ever, and a nebulous collection of old and new
components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number.
"Broken up"
Similarly, if a factory records that a car has been broken up, it should
mean exactly that. It has gone for good.
"Converted"
There have been examples of a Type A model being converted by the
factory into a Type B and then a Type C. The particular car as an entity
never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognize that the Type
C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car
back to a Type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect
example is the E.R.A. that started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to
R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in
1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well-documented continuous
history, and is as genuine as they come but it can never revert back to
R4B."
Location: Shropshire
Cup Model Pinterest site : http://pinterest.com/albaaustins/ge-cup-models/
All photos which would add to this are gratefully received.
Another large head-lamped Cup, bonnet strap and later (??) style rad?
What an excellent reply to a posting very informative and largly puts the subject to rest.
Location: Near water
Location: Shropshire
Gernot,
Well does it- I think the main problem is that many cars which are described as original or genuine are often resurrections, reconstructions or facsimiles.
If the resurrection, reconstruction or facsimle is well done then it is often difficult to know unless given careful examination of all details.
Using just pictures it is very hard to determine originality.
Tony.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Now Ian!
I thought that was your intention when you introduced DJ's very erudite exposure
Tony
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Sorry Tony but, no I was really trying to draw a line under the whole issue.
Ian Mc.
Location: Shropshire
What about the more recent euphemism "evocation" often used by auctioneers and dealers? Jenks would have loved that one.
Location: Stretham, Ely, the Fens.
I'm sorry to drag this out, but de we find an answer to the original question as to whether this one is the real deal or a reconstruction or whatever?
In other words did it actually start out as a GE cup? I checked the chassis register and the chassis number falls amidst a plethora of AD tourers.
I know where the cloakroom is...
Location: Near Bicester