Hi, I own and drive a 1935 Ruby. On getting things ready for the better weather and hopefully a trip to the Netherlands to do the Molentockt Rally in May I have have been perhaps more particular than ever to have things right. When greasing the top of the torque tube from the small removable panel from inside the car I noticed that the adjustment ring (the threaded ring held by two studs in slots) was at an angle and not inline with the prop shaft and torque tube. Is this normal and if not ideas as what can be wrong and how to rectify things please. Can I add the car drives well without any strange noises. I only found it by accident when I saw an exploded diagram in the Doug Woodrow manual. I wasnt aware of the grease point there as a previous owner to me had repaced the grease nipple ith a short stud of the same thread.

Yours John Mason
Robin Hood Country

Location: Nottinghamshire

does a 1935 ruby have the ball on the chassis, or the type with a bush and bolt?. The ball type will allow the whole mounting assembly (the threaded ring and the mating casting) to rotate as its simply a ball joint.

However if the threaded ring is crooked in the mating casting it would sound like the thread is fubared either on the inner ring, or the outer casting (or both). Your symptoms sound like they may be crossthreaded which likely means both parts will be U/S.

You can change the casting if you take the flange off the pinion shaft, but changing the ring is not possible without cutting and welding the torque tube which is quite a lot of work, probably best done during an axle rebuild (actually using another torque tube is the easiest fix)

The ring is buggered on fathers chummy axle, we have chosen to adjust with the locking bolts and see how it goes.

My advice to you would be to leave it alone until it becomes a problem.

If it is like my 37 then it sounds normal. That joint is a ball joint on an arm fixed to the chassis. The fixing to the chassis is via a bush so the whole bracket can tilt forwards and backwards. The end of the torque tube passes through the ball on the other end of the bracket which can also move. The drive shaft attaches to the flange on the end of torque tube via a u-joint. So the propshaft-torque tube can be thought of as a line with a kink in it (at the U-joint). The torque tube bracket can be at a different angle to either of these though because of the ball. The bracket doesn't have to be at 90 degrees to the torque tube.

Errr, maybe this picture helps:



In the pic the bracket (heading off to the left) just happens to be at 90 degrees but it can moved up and down which would then make it look out of alignment.

That pic shows how the ring threads up to the bracket to so you can see what they look like when they aren't cross-threaded!

Simon

This picture shows the whole assembly.



Simon

Simon's explanation is very good. I think the 1935 will not have the rubber bush, but will be like my 1934, with a ball on the chassis. This doesn't really make a difference - Simon's explanation will still apply.

i notice that yours has a grease nipple mine has a bolt screwed in witch is correct

Location: United Kingdom

Richard mine also only has the bolt/stud in the top. I thought this was wrong as all the photographs and diagrams I had seen all had the grease nipple.. Perhaps mine is correct after all.

Location: Nottinghamshire

But how do you grease it then

Location: United Kingdom

Richard

I'm sure this issue has been the cause of many a worry/panic/perplexity. It stems from the simplicity of the rear axle mounting system, inasmuch as any wear between the ball joint and the slotted tube that locates the torque tube will cause the arrangement to deflect. I first encountered it on an RN I previously owned which caused me great consternation. The RP I now own has the same effect, but less extreme and since the neck of the ball joint is not excessively worn, I keep the bits well greased and have long ceased to worry!

Hedd's advice is sound - it's not broken so don't fix it. My Mk2 Ruby had the later Silentbloc bush shown in the photos. It's a great improvement, and eliminates the twist.

Enjoy the Rally in May

Bob

Location: St Tudy 50 miles east of Sandy, 4 miles east of Alastair in N Cornwall

Hi John

On the 1935 and earlier type it should be possible to simply twist the assembly by hand back to being square with the car, but if it has worn itself into a pattern it will return there. (The later type is retained square) No matter, provided the full range of movement available without slackness or significant tightness. This is often difficult to achieve after adjustment, as the soft steel on steel parts wear significantly and unequally, esp if the grease nipple neglected. Not easy to test freedom in place (unless the small ball joint attached to the chassis dismantled). For various angles of the drive shaft it should be possible to twist the 1935 pattern as first sentence without much force. Cannot reasonably simulate the full bump situation without some disassembly.
If on the bench much can be done with a fine file, scraper, or emery paper to remove high spots and restore to a sphere shape to enable full motion with constant resistance.
A common problem is lack of remaining adjustment. The serrated adjustable ring abuts the cup piece which carries the grease nipple. Metal can be removed to bring the parts closer. If necessary to attack also the captured part, will have to resort to filing.

It is easy to adjust too tight, esp at extremes of movement. Must be avoided.

A seriously loose joint will cause a knock or shudder on take off. With small movement it may show as a vibration at high speed on an exactly neutral throttle.
Better to tolerate the latter than to have too tight.

The assembly tightens up considerably when the lock bolts are tightened and must be tested in this state.

I guess this is all covered in various publications but I have few.

Bob Culver

Location: Auckland

John,
As Bob says,don't overtighten either the large torque tube ball joint or the chassis/torque tube anchor ball joint because it's possible to fracture the torque tube at the tube flange end where the tube attaches to the banjo casing.I have had this problem,caused by me making things too tight on the 1931/32 type axle casing which is regarded as one of the stronger types of axle.I was lucky and found the fracture when it was half way across the tube and no damage to the internals was done.Better to have a small amount of slack at both these locations,but keep the slack to a minimum so you don't get too much clonking.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield, the home of Henderson's Relish.

My Sports has the big castelated nut brazed in - obviously many years ago the thread was damaged.
The torque tube ball and big socket seem to wear unevenly over the years and it is is difficult to adjust nicely, so even with the assembly still able to screw in it is dangerous to tighten in one position lest it should lock up under bounce.
The only time there is a problem with looseness is on change of direction and a regular squirt of grease softens the blow

Without checking (always dangerous)the early ball joint had a plug to be replaced by an extension piece for greasing, with a grease nipple fitted from around 1929.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Australia.

Richard to grease the ball etc just get a grease nipple with the same thread as the stud and replace the stud with the nipple.

To everybody else thank you for all your advice. Particularly about leaving well alone if it's working ok. your advice has been taken on board and the seven is remaining in the garage.

Location: Nottinghamshire

Location: Saltdean, Brighton

Hi Gary

Hard chroming would be severe overkill. The awkward part is restoring torque tube to reasonably spherical in the first place with minimum removal of materiaL. With chrome errors would never wear away. Steps on the socket and ring need to be scraped or ground away with delicate use of a Dremel or suchlike. If reducing the face of the socket and the shoulder of the captured ring still does not allow the filed and fitted sphere to be lightly and uniformly clamped, then either hunt out another socket or torque tube, or build up the socket, torque tube etc. All parts are soft and so welding, brazing etc presumably OK, although the heat from latter possibly drastic for the torque tube.
Metal sprying would be less expensive than hard chrome, avoid distortion of the bearing hosuing. Avoid super hard.

it is not cear how much you would do yourself. Anyone with a lathe could turn the socket back a bit. The rest is just patient fiddling. Ideally wish to avoid removing the pinion shaft.

Bob Culver

Location: Auckland, NZ

Thanks Bob, I will look at metal spraying, there is nothing further on the adjustment, so to remove material will make matters worse! I have a spare torque tube (which is in the same condition) and I might experiment with that to see how it goes (depending on the cost), I won't use this part as I will have to re-set the mesh on the CW (which means I have to borrow a setting tool again), so would prefer to keep what is on the car rather than go through the rigmarole of taking the diff apart!

Location: Saltdean, Brighton

Exhaust all possibilities with the socket and ring first. Unless someone has been before, it should be practicable to turn 1/16 or so from the abutting face. The thread on the ring may then be too long but can be filed back. The lugs may need filing on the backs.

I have managed to resurrect this way. But some cars must be very worn, and the operating angle is often changed as with a special. It is surprising more torque tubes do not fracture due jamming. It is unrealistic to regain a full sphere without building up, but improved movement thru the range can be achieved with a bit of fitting. On the bench the effect of inverting the torque tube (requiring another breather) can be tried.

This must now be a common problem? What do the specialists do? Weld or braze the sphere? Press or tack weld on a new sphere? Form tools to finish and reshape the socket and ring?

When you look at the state of, it is surprising most work as well as they do.

The tendency for the pre 1936 to operate off square is probably due to significant adjustment rotating the worn part of the ring so that it is to one side.


Bob Culver

Location: Auckland, NZ

On yet further pondering, the critical distance is the pinion face from the flange. This can be measured to within about .001 with a vernier depth gauge or a sheet metal gauge cut and filed, or a straight edge and nail filed to length, so it would not be difficult to refit and correct with the shims.

Welding could make the ball bearing very tight, and it is difficult to set up to turn to the necessary precision. But this bearing is not critical so the housing could be eased with emery paper etc. I am not sure if the same shrinkage problem occurs with brazing. The sphere could be turned using the shaft as a running centre! Or the ball race left in and a centre wedged into it.
It gets more involved with a small lathe.

Cant help wondering if there is scope for a nylon strip trapped between the two halves etc.Trouble is it is all too awkwrd to work on for experiment. I guess in the day various sale tricks were applied, along with sawdust in the diff. (demise of Arthur Daley reminded me.)

Bob Culver

Location: Auckland, NZ

Location: Saltdean, Brighton

Hi all, I was coming home from the Goodwood Revival yesterday and felt a serious wobble from the rear. On stopping and checking there wasn't a loose wheel etc and I carried on slowly home. Jacked the car up this morning and all I could find was a very loose torque tube socket (as its called in the spares manual). So much so I suspect it was causing the whole rear axle to swing from side to side and possibly accounting for the problem only when driving over 40 or so mph. The main reason for the 'post' is that the adjustment collar seems to be fully tight and I may have to resort to metal spraying or some form of packing to reduce movement. Does anyone have experience of this and the names of any UK firms who can preform such a task ? James

Location: Ferring West Sussex

The function of the torque tube is to resist the torque of driving the wheels.
The rear axle is located fore and aft and side to side by the springs. The pin joint means that the axle should not be able to swing when on a straight road.
When the car rolls on cornering the axle has to swing which is why the spherical joint is needed at the top of the torque tube.
Thus a loose torque tube joint should not cause the axle to swing from side to side. It would however cause quite a lot of clattering when taking up drive or on rough roads.
I would check the rear shock absorbers in case they are allowing the car to roll excessively and the rear springs in case there is a broken leaf.

Location: Melrose, Scottish Borders

This is what mine looks like on my Ruby.
Will be adding the photos to my other thread.



All adjustment taken up:




How easy is it to get a gun to that nipple?

Geoff - I'm now at a total loss on how to proceed.

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk

"How easy is it to get a gun to that nipple?"

Assuming you aren't being sarcastic.

Very easy Geoff. Just lift the little access panel on the top of the torque tube tunnel inside the car.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Even when adjustment remains or the fitting is relieved to restore, the need to avoid wedging at the extremes often prevents use of. Seriously worn torque tube spheres must be a commonn problem.The one on my car was at end of adjustment at just 110,000 miles despite very regular greasing. How do the specialists remedy? Is the sphere built up with bronze and form turned spherical again?
Note the advice about slackening before fitting the lock bolts is important.

Bob Culver

Location: Auckland, NZ

No sarcasm intended Ian, just me having one of my bad days and not thinking of that access panel.
Sorry about that, brain out of gear.

Geoff - Wasted day today, sleeping or sitting on my backside.

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk

There is probably wear in all three components of the spherical joint. It's difficult to do anything about the ball adjusting nut or the torque tube.
I had a similar problem and bought a much better torque tube socket from Tony Leslie. This solved the problem for me.

Location: Melrose, Roxburghshire

Location: Shropshire