OK, now when it comes to false dawns the history of this development has plenty!! HOWEVER as I walked past the site this afternoon, to my amazement the hoardings are being covered with SEREN coming soon register your interest type glossy placards!!! They'd only just made a start but I imagine they could be all the way around by tomorrow - Mind you a bit like Cardiff City strikers, I'll believe it when it's a fact!! and in glass needle terms that won't be until they've got past the stage that the central hotel has and are significantly building upwards!! Still this is the most positive sign of progress at the actual site for a long long time!!! potentially I'm well appy!!

Sit down Paul before you pass out mate !

I think it will start this autumn. The announcement of a hotel operator makes it more positive to me...but then they did that for the Central Hotel didn't they ?!

I saw the signs too!!!!!i'm more optimistic than ever that this thing shall be built!! also i envisage a crane sprouting from the site of the central hotel in a matter of weeks!

the heartbreaking thing is i'm going to plymouth university this september! which is just my luck...

but for crying outloud, just build them now!

Not sure about the Central Hotel...Urbano has gone very quiet on it (which I don't blame him if he's involved) and the end of May start has been missed by two months now so perhaps they have been affected by the housing market. i know there are only 25 apartments in it, but the market is bad and maybe Staybridge Suites are dragging their heels or maybe they can't find an occupier for the bar (didn't Sports Cafe fold as well ?)

It would be great if either or both could start. If I had to choose it would the Glass Needle due to the size of the project (3 towers above 2 storeys is a big deal for Cardiff)...although my personal favourite is the Central Hotel site for some odd reason !

I think the centralhotel site is a moreobvious 'hole' in the buildingscape of the city. It looks like something is missing, where as the Seren site doesnt shout 'BIG GAP' to passers by as much. Unless they read this forum of course...

2-0 Paul? Great news though!

Wait..stop..Huh? Did i just read right? ITS ACUTALLY HAPPENING?? ABOUT TIME!! lol

I wonder if there's a website for Seren yet ?

Is sleeperz to be finished soon or is it at a go slow??

Well they've taken the crane down on Sleeperz so I'm assuming they are just finishing off the external work that doesn't need a crane and starting on all the internal stuff now. Why do you ask ? Has it all gone quiet on site or something ?

Paul, did you take any photos of the Glass Needle / Seren new hoardings ? I don't suppose that there was any mention of a web address ?

creeper alert!!!!...... now it's bound to happen!!!

Cripes Creepers!
What influence we have.

brilliant stuff!! very nice picture! the only way is up!!

best thing of all, they've got virginia creeper growing up the back of the bottom bit!!

Not wishing to throw cold water on the celebrations, but don't forget we have been here before. Remember a few years ago when the planning offices came down, the big 'Coming Soon' banners with the nice CGI and the never-appearing website?

I'm excited about the latest developments - especially as it appears Knight-Frank are still on board, and that's one better than last time - but let's not get carried away. A couple of banners are no indication that the thing is ever going actually get built...

(Although I'm sure it will, because I am fundamentally an optimist!)

I followed the website address shown on one of the pictures posted by "Me" (www.seren-cardiff.co.uk) and it just showed a holding page saying that the domain had been purchased.

blimey dai your brand of optimism is a little pessimistic!!! the trouble is that I share your concerns!! it's just a bit of a thrill to see that it is still in the pipeline I know what we'll do.. we'll wait and see!! AGAIN

and another thing, I hate this business of advertising a web site that doesn't exist!! and they haven't even bothered to put up a holding page!!!

I was kind of hoping the shortest two towers would be different...particularly with one of them being a hotel.

Still, they are post 20 storeys and if the main tower looks anything like it does in that picture I'll be very very happy.

Fingers crossed for an autumn start eh ?!

with a bit of luck this development may (i) actually get going and (ii) be worth the wait.

the taller block is very elegant and makes a statement whilst I think the shorter of the two is more architecturally interesting.

If this goes ahead then it will be a real boon for Cardiff. What with Bay Pointe imminent (Atkins are the primary funders of the development and are financially sound) and Cambrian Marine's 30+ development in the pipeline, we could have three 30+ residential/hotel towers in the city by 2010...

oh how the skyline would have changed since 2000 if that actually happens...

where did the above picture come from? Is there any more info??? ??? ???

I think it is taken from the new hoardings around the site that Paul took a few photos of. The website www.seren-cardiff.co.uk is just a reserved address without even a holding page at the moment.

Autumn start HOPEFULLY.

Yep that's where the pics are from - but around the other side of the site by the entrance to the car park. Haven't been past the site today but I'm hoping that the seren advertising will go around the whole site.

Jantra - how do you know Bay Pointe is 'imminent'? I'd be gutted if you aren't right now! Is a start really that certain? I'm only asking because I've always had the gut feeling that BP is somewhat further into the future than GN, more fanciful, perhaps!

Ian

Atkins are the primary developer and are a global player with many different strings to their bow, so are less prone to the oft used excuse of a credit crunch. City Lofts maybe in adminsitration but any joint ventures (such as BP) are not.

The JV has already spent £30m on the purchase of the land from the council. Now most of the analysts I've been speaking to at the banks reckon we'll see the housing makret stablilse over the next few months with growth actually expected towards the start of next year. Bancassuers are starting to decrease the cost of mortgages (albeit to a more realistic level) with a pore prudent risk based lending policy. HBoS (the UK's biggest lender) has decreased the cost of 119 mortgages this month alone. Shares in banks are beginning to climb thus improving their credit ratigns with each other.

We'll start to see the clearing houses extending their settlelement account credit lines in the next month or so (the intra bank day accounts banks have with each other).

The banks aer also takign a leadership view this time round. They realise they ahve a role to play in the disciplined kickstarting of the economy. By allowign lending but on much more risk based terms than previous, we will see cash/monetary value starting to flow through the economy again. The housebuilders are still in the woods, so to speak but the banks know they are sat on some serious land banks/unfinished stock and as such need to provide support to allow the builders to release the value held on the balance sheets.

It is for this reason that I reckon Atkins/city Lofts will guess that by the time the first blocks are finshed, say early 2010, the market will have picked up enough to see steady movement of new stock.

Bear in mind we have had smaller developments looking imminent, such as Cambrian Marine, and tehse investors are not so foolish as to tie up their capital in projects for any serious lengthy period.

please note this is all conjencture - if it wasn't I'd be selling bank stock short today and retiring tomorrow.

Jantra - where did you find out that Atkins were developers? I thought they were just the architects / engineers. There seems to be a company called Allied Developments (Europe) promoting the scheme - with offices registered in Cardiff.

Cardiff Ian you are corect although I have read in certain periodicals that in relation to this JV they are the primary backer, at least they have provided teh primary security as they have a stronger credit rating.

I thought city lofts were developers and not construction. That is, they actually led the project but did not do the actual donkmey work...a bit like the developers of Seren (Urban ???) and the use (or not) of Laing.

Atkins, with the better credit rating of the two in this JV, are more likely ensure that the funding is in place to see through construction. I may be wrong but given certain subsidiaries of City Lofts are now in administration this is most likely.

BP has already spent £30m on this project and I don't see that investment returning anything until such time as the thing is built - I dobut they'd recopu anything like that in the curernt market so they have two options...either build in the hope that the market picks up thus (hopefully) releasing (some) value sooner or wait until the market does pick up then build on stronger foundations.

I reckon that given their strong credit, the JV will see the £30m as sunk cost and look at the NPV (net present value is the expected value in todays terms) of completing this project.

There are lots of thnigs to consider but I reckon a start now could se the project well underway by the time of recovery. it is all about where the parents of the JV can best utilise their funds...

Thanks for the explanations, Jantra. I'm afraid I find trouble with the economics of the piggy-bank but I appreciate the time you've taken over the reply!

Yep that makes things a bit clearer thanks. Lets hope that when it does start they don't build the smaller blocks first as has been discussed previously about Celestia, Prospect Place, etc.

i dont like the red on the smaller blocks, i think they should just keep the whole thing glass...in my opinion the red looks hideous.

Thought I'd let you all know that Seren/glass needle has gone back infront of planning in the september docs, now on the council website. I'm still reading it, but you might be interested to read this:

"DESCRIPTION OF PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT
1.1 A detailed planning application for the development of 186 residential units,
159 bed serviced apartments/hotel, 228 sqm of retail/food and drink/leisure
floorspace located within the glass needle, a ground floor restaurant/bar area
within the hotel of approximately 380 sqm, 137 car parking spaces, 187 cycle
spaces and public realm works on the site of the former Wood Street offices.
1.2 The scheme comprises a 32 storey (plus ground), residential glass tower and
a 21/23 storey (plus ground) block accommodating the serviced
apartments/hotel and flats, annotated as Block A on the submitted plans.
Associated commercial uses are proposed at ground and first floor level.
1.3 Several detailed planning permissions have been granted on the site, most
recently under planning permission 07/02111/C for 220 residential units, 105
bed serviced apartments/hotel, 1343m2 of retail, food and drink, and leisure
floorspace, 200 car parking spaces and public realm works.
1.4 The current proposal differs from the previous approval (07/02111/C) by
increasing the number of serviced apartments/hotel rooms by 54no. and
reducing the number of residential units by 34no. The number of floors in the
block adjoining the glass needle devoted to the serviced apartments/hotel use
has increased from 7no. to 10no. The glass needle tower remains at 32
storeys whilst the adjacent block is staggered to create a 21/23 storey form.
Parking provision has been reduced by 63no. spaces. The amount of
commercial floorspace has also been reduced in scale, by over 1,000 sqm.
1.5 The glass needle remains at approx. 98 metres high and the staggered block
rises to a maximum of approx. 76 metres; the development incorporates a
landscaped roof garden area at 3rd storey level, and active commercial
frontages on the ground and first floors, to Central Square. Pedestrian access
to the ‘needle’ remains from Wood Street, with access to the hotel and
apartments/flats from Central Square. Vehicular access remains as in
previous schemes from the existing Central Square access point."


Docs:

http://www.cardiff.gov.uk/content.asp?nav=2872,3250,3251,4892&parent_directory_id=2865&id=1509

Yeah I noticed that too.

I think they'll rue the day they cut back the "commercial/leisure" space. It seems like an extreme case of short-termist value engineering. For these apartments and apart-hotels to be "luxury" they need onsite leisure facilities. I still find it rediculous that theres no gym in the city centre or bay given the number of workers who may wish to use it at lunch time, or before or after work. I mean there are LOADS in central London. Are Cardiffians just that lazy (or too poor to afford it?)?

Real geeks should print out p343-347 of the planning document for some very detailed plans that just dont show up on the screen at all. Too much detail even for me! (on a friday at home time anyway...)

It seems, in terms of names, the Glass Needle still refers to the taller tower, and maybe Seren is the whole development?

Looks good at ground level doesnt it? Great start for the central square area...

No doubt this latest application will be passed and with any luck, will be the very last one they put forward! anyone know when the council intends to see it?
One of the hording posters showes a pretty detailed diagram of the needle tower, with some proper jargon with arrows pointing at different sections of it! its as if it was taken from an actual application! lol.

i like the sketch of the base, showes a much more detailed plan of what it'll look like, as until now, we've just bin guessing.

The office is empty so I'm printing them out to have a look before I get home...what a geek eh ?!

They'd better approve this and start bloody working on it soon. I agree it would be a great start to a Central Square redevelopment. As has been said on another thread they badly need a masterplan though forthe whole area. Other than Seren I think they should put it out to tender and come up with something really grand...chance would be a fine thing though.

I want to know what is happening to the proposed Jury's hotel near the stadium. It would be great to have Seren's two/three towers, the Jury's and Central Hotel all on the go in 2009 wouldn't it ?!

We can but hope.

For those that aren't/can't going to look at the plans there is a decent amount of public space facing Millenium Plaza. As well as new paving there are going to be new trees and space for some public artwork within a new plaza.

In the needle at ground floor level there is a curved retail unit facing the river and wood street on the west side of the building. This is next to the road that leads to the car park behind the site.

There is then a restaurant facing wood street that is in the lower levels that join the needle to the 22/23 storey hotel/serviced apartments. There is then another restaurant facing the entrance into central square which seems to be part of the 22/23 storey blocks that are I guess part of the hotel.

Look forward to them getting to the stage when they have to do this:::::

"29. An aviation warning light be installed on the glass needle tower prior to beneficial use of the development.
Reason: In the interests of safety."

David - There is one (!) gym in the city centre called Vitality opposite the Parc Hotel (above Henry's Bar). But you're right, the inner city core of Cardiff is crap for gyms.

I think the main reason that you get more in London (as well as many other reasons) is because it is a less car-centric city than Cardiff.

The 'market' has determined that in Cardiff we shall have large gymnasiums in out of town areas, just like the supermarkets, and you will drive to them or go without - and so that is what we have.

It is rather a similar situation with regard to shopping for groceries in the City/the Bay area.

There are also gyms in the Hilton Hotel, Park Plaza Hotel (that is about to double its size by taking a floor of existing hotel rooms overlooking Greyfriars Road), and a few other nearby hotels.

For me a prime location would be, at least some of, the massive unit that TX Maxx used to have. No one really wants to put a shop up there, but a gym above the JJB could be really good.

JJB used to run gyms in their out of town stores - do they still do this? If so it would be perfect!

jjb have just opened a new store in the retail park in llanishen, next to the government buildings. inside jjb theyve also opened a gym called MiFit. i went in there the other day to take a look, it looked nice and a monthly membership only cost £9.99.

It is indeed very nice... I've just joined although havn't got round to training yet. They're opening a JJB Fitness Club in their new Leckwith store too, and that'll be the full health club costing £30 a month.

Can anyone else see the upper floors of Queens West being converted into offices before long? The old TK Maxx unit's been empty for over a year (hardly surprising given it's far awayt location) and the JJB isn't exactly obvious or big enough for current use. Once that goes into a new unit in SD2 (which I don't know but I think is likely), the entire upper floor will be empty. Prime redevelopment opportunity if you ask me.

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