ardiff council has submitted a multi-million bid to purchase a swathe of empty land next the capital’s bus and railway stations.

It’s understood the Welsh Government also considered submitting a bid, but were not prepared to compete with the price being offered by the council.

The one-acre site – thought to be worth between £2m and £3m – was put up for sale after an ambitious plan for a £50m, 32-storey tower was the victim of the economic downturn.

Neither the council nor the Welsh Government, which are both controlled by Labour, would confirm whether they had submitted offers.

The land – currently surrounded by hoardings – is bound by Wood Street to the north, an access road to a pay-and-display car park to the west and the road leading to the Cardiff Central railway station’s main entrance to the east.

Potential buyers, which are also understood to include the hotel arm of Swedish furniture giant Ikea, had until February 22 to submit their “best and final offers”.

The land was previously the site of council office buildings which were demolished in 2003. It’s understood that if the council successfully buys back the site, it will consider reconfiguring the road entrance to Cardiff Central.

The entrance, off Wood Street, has long been the cause of complaint, with buses, taxis and rail passengers being picked up or dropped off competing for space.

It’s not known what the Welsh Government had planned for the site, however it is located within its new Cardiff enterprise zone, which is aimed at boosting the financial services sector by creating Grade A office space.

A statement posted on the Welsh Government website last Tuesday said the Business Minister Edwina Hart had been asked to approve the submission of an offer to purchase development land within the zone.

Asked to specify the location of the land, a Welsh Government spokeswoman said the information was “commercial and in confidence”.

Property agents Knight Frank, which marketed the site, also declined to comment on the bidders’ identities, only saying it was pleased with the amount of interest in the land.

Partner Stephen Widnall said the deal would not be completed until the end of the month.

Conservative councillor Craig Williams, chairman of the Economy and Culture Scrutiny Committee, said any major land deal by the council should be open to scrutiny.

“I can understand why they are doing commercial engagement sensitively, but we have made the point that the scrutiny committee can meet in private sessions,” he said. “If you are making purchases of this size with public money there should be some level of scrutiny.”

It is also understood the council is also in talks to buy the Marland House office block, which is located on the other side of the bus station.

The previous Liberal Democrat/Plaid Cymru administration, ousted from power last May, had wanted to buy and then demolish the building as part of its proposal to redevelop the bus station and Central Square.

After coming to power, Labour dismissed that scheme as a “pre-election gimmick” and six months later announced plans to buy 4.3 acres of vacant land at Callaghan Square.

But the authority suddenly dropped plans for the £7.25m purchase, only saying they were no longer “expedient”.

At the time, Councillor Russell Goodway, cabinet member for economy, denied it was because the Welsh Government had refused to waive an “overage clause” which entitled it to a proportion of the profits from the sale.

Shortly after, the Welsh Government subsequently purchased the site for a price believed to be between £7m and £7.5m.

A Welsh Government spokeswoman said it hoped to start construction of 90,000sq ft of Grade A offices at Callaghan Square this year.

“There is also an outline planning consent for a further 410,000 sq ft of offices and ancillary uses, so the whole site could accommodate up to 5,000 new jobs,” she said.

“Discussions regarding the development of the site are on-going and remain confidential at this stage.”



Read more: Wales Online http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardiffonline/cardiff-news/2013/03/05/cardiff-council-submits-multi-million-pound-bid-to-buy-an-acre-91466-32920073/#ixzz2MjnHml1B

yet more evidence that Cardiff and Wales struggles to attract the private sector to prime city centre development spots.

this is good news on one hand but bad news on the other

I'm sure the article is saying that the land had large private sector interest aswell as WAG. Knight Frank saying they were pleased with the level of interest and the fact that ikea hotels were trying a bid in.

If the Council are able to purchase Marland House then all the land between Gt Western Lane and the river and central station and Wood St will be in the hands of one owner.

That may be good news in that the area can be properly master planned/reconfigured as necessary. It may be bad news in that the Council are subject to political pressures and budget constraints whereas a private developer isn't. This looks like another chapter in a long running saga.

Interesting news about Ikea though. If they are looking for a prime city centre site what about Adam St? Possibly Capital Quarter or even the Rapport site in Bridge St?

Seems strange to me that the council would bid for the site if there was the opportunity of private sector development. Other parties may have been interested but would they have paid the price the owners wanted? Would it be a surprise if someone has sat on this land for a decade, done nothing with it and hoping to sell at a profit back to the council. I hope not but it wouldn't surprise me. I was only thinking yesterday that this could be another option for the new bus station, providing a clear open space in front of central, but who knows?

The new Ikea hotel chain is in collaboration with Marriot and is called Moxy, and it is a budget chain. Info on it here:

http://www.news.marriott.com/2013/03/moxy-hotels-unlocks-style-4-less.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/mar/05/ikea-to-open-budget-hotel-chain

According to the Guardian: "Moxy openings likely in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff, Liverpool, York, Inverness and Cardiff."

We get two of them! No, I suspect a typo...

The plan is to open 150 hotels across Europe, 50 in the next five years. I guess they are bidding on lots of sites across Europe right now looking for good prices. It could probably go in one of many places in Cardiff, so Central Square is not the only option for them.

Equally possible that the council might purcahse the land but still allow hotel construction there to part fund other elements of the scheme.

Can you name another UK city that has two large office buildings (Admiral and Capital Quarter) being constructed right now? Excluding London, of course. I'm just off to Skyscrapercity to have a look.

Birmingham has had snow hill recently completed and Manchester 1 angel square which are both much larger and higher quality development, as for under construction Manchester has the large office building under construction oposit their library thats bigger than Admiral. Cardiff has a long way to go on this side of things.

I've been on Skyscrapercity. The Co-op HQ in Mcr seems to be the only major office building listed as being under construction in the UK, outside of London. I asked Jantra about office buildings. Nothing seems to be going up in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield,Liverpool, Birmingham, Nottingham or Bristol.
Only the one building in Manchester.
So, unless someone can point out a large office building being constructed somewhere in the UK (excluding London) it seems that Cardiff has twice as many as the rest of the UK combined. They are both private-sector projects and the Admiral HQ is large (220,000 sq feet). By comparison 1 Canada square is 1,100,000 sq feet, but that is probably the largest office building in the UK.
I haven't seen anything being built in the English provinces while on my travels.
If someone can prove me wrong, please do so. Otherwise it seems that Jantra is Wales-bashing and talking utter rubbish, again.

Admiral is the once in a lifetime build. The last time we had an office development like this was in the 1960s. This is cardiffs first ftse 100 office building.

Capital quarter is de facto mothballed as jr smart can't find a tenant.

Manchester has plenty of office space being built. I know I go their regularly. The co op new build is a great addition, what about the developments in the quays and around deansgate?

It's not Wales bashing at all, it is saying that Cardiff doesn't gave a strong private sector. This is evident by capital quarter remaining unfinished, the fact that 20 years after starting capital waterside is less than half complete and ditto with Callaghan square.

The only way these projects near any sort of completion is through public sector purchase - as we are seeing

What is currently being built at Salford Quays and on Deansgate? I think what has been built at Callaghan Square is pretty substantial if you include Black Horse, Fusion point and the AA. Nothing is being built of any consequence anywhere in the UK outside of London. By the way Capital Quarter IS being built speculatively by the private sector, which means they have faith in Cardiff.
Many people do.
So by extension, using your logic, the UK outside of London is crap at attracting Private sector investment to prime city-centre sites? Excepting Cardiff of course where we have two currently going up.
Wish we had a Homer or facepalm smiley Paul.

spinningfields (off Deansgate) trumps anything we have in Cardiff.

Media City is Salford Quays.

M/cr has lots of new office developments, they may not be 30 storeys but they are there. You mention fusion point et al, well compare that to Salford Quays proper...

Cardiff is great in a Welsh context, but really, in a UK context it is not that great at all

There are no office buildings currently under construction in Spinningfields. 1 Hardman Square has been waiting to start for years. I just checked on Skyscrapercity,see.
It just shows what utter doylems the Mancs are at attracting private-sector investment for office building construction on prime city centre sites.
FACEPALM

They are also building a new spar in Newport with an office out the back!!

I never said there was anything under construction. I merely pointed out that Spinningfields - a recent development - was better than anything we have in Cardiff. The lifecycle of the development is a lot shorter than say Callaghan Square or Capital Waterside.

My point is that Cardiff doesn't really do well in private sector led development - no matter what you like to think

Jantra - Manchester is a much bigger city for goodness sake. You can't really compare the two. The private sector is weak everywhere outside the south east and to some extent Scotland. You say you go to Manchester regularly, it's a city with a lot of economic problems, but like all major cities it has its economic positives.

Your opening gambit/trolling fixed for you.
THUMBS-UP smiley

I didn't mention Manchester first - b leeding obvious did

Like i said Birmingham has the huge snow hill offices

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ypswj2DzKKA/UPXv-REBKoI/AAAAAAAAO00/4G20xKHNFdk/s1600/12Jan12SH2n.jpg

There is the matalan HQ in Liverpool

11 storey office block under construction in Glasgow

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/TheeBoards/propDetailLarge_PERSPECTIVEwithArtDecoBuilding_14183_zpscb55c2b3.jpg

Nottingham has this mixed use office development

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8p-K_y0Pj68/URwXzlieedI/AAAAAAAAN5Q/OApBHPiefXc/s1600/Nottingham-one-low-res.jpg

Also the aeon office scheme is nearing complettion in nottingham (which has surprisingly similar developments compared to Cardiff outside vanity projexts like the senedd and millennium center etc.

No1 St peters square 14 storey office block in manchester

Surely there is office construction in Bristols harbourside development?

yes to Harbourside in Bristol. I past the place yesterday and its a rather decent looking development about 7/6 storeys - which is in keeping with Bristol's low/mid rise style.

NB the district has Hargreaves Landsdown, HBoS Financial Services and Lloyds Banking Group - all divisional headquarters rather than the contact centres that we have in Cardiff

Fair enough. Matalan HQ is actually in Knowsley,which is a different Local Authority to Liverpool, but I accept that there are a handful of private sector office buildings going up in the UK core cities.
The broad point that I was making was that Cardiff is doing at least as well as those other UK core cities in terms of private sector investment in new buildings. All of them are larger (excepting Nottingham) in terms of the population living in the Local Authority, and all of them are part of much bigger conurbations/Metro areas/LUZs.
Jantra's assertion that the failure to develop the Glass Needle site is more evidence of Cardiff's/Wales' inability to attract private-sector investment to prime sites just doesn't stand up to scrutiny when Cardiff is compared to other UK core cities.
We are demonstrably doing rather better right now as we have two large buildings going up,despite being a much smaller city.
FACT

rubbish!

Peel holdings have just achieved planning in Liverpools docks for a multi billion pound scheme. Peel don't mess around, they hold huge tracts of land in the NorthWest, they built the trafford centre (and they own Barton Airport) along with a whole host of other developments.

NB the above is only one example, i'm pretty sure that M/cr, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Bristol all have similar blueprints and outline planning with funds flowing inwards to finance.

I can't believe that you think the once in a lifetime build by admiral and a mothballed development at Capital Quarter is a sign that Cardiff's private sector is doing as well as the rest of the UK. What utter madness. The simple truth is that we cannot get any sort of development next to the train station which in almost every city in the UK sees prime office development (Consider Reading as an example) We have the council buying up land to the north of the station and WG buying up land to the south. no one else is interested. Now what will happen is the public sector will not spend the money on developing anything like Bristol Templemeads or M/cr piccadilly/victoria and instead we will end up with a very poor gateway to Cardiff. That sums up our aspirations and ability to atttract inward investment. The core CBD of Cardiff is primarily owned by the state along with its only major airport. Yet you think we are doing as well as the rest of the UK?

The scheme in Liverpool is not under construction though , is it? Christopher is drilling in Cardiff, not Liverpool. Once in a lifetime? Callaghan square and Helmont House have been built in the past twenty years. They are very substantial private sector investments.
A problem with the Seren site is that it is next to Riverside, where the value of flats in the only large new build has plummeted; Millennium View showed developers that there isn't a lot of demand for luxury apartments in this location. Being from Riverside myself i always thought the plan for apartments on this site was folly. Given the number of apartment blocks that have gone up elsewhere in Cardiff it seems that the developers agreed with me. It just isn't a very nice area.
The site would be much better suited to offices.
Jantra, you appear to have a very low opinion of Cardiff. I don't know why.Our city centre has had billions invested in it recently and hundreds of millions of pounds are being invested right now. Compare it to Hull, Bradford, Stoke or Plymouth and we are outperforming them. Manchester and Birmingham, which.are in Met counties with almost as large populations as Wales, don't have any more construction currently ongoing than Cardiff.
Ask yourself, why do you have such a poor opinion of Cardiff and Wales?

Neither of you are right (or, in another sense, both are right).

In terms of current speculative development, Cardiff is doing pretty well in comparison to even significantly larger cities like Birmingham and Manchester. But thats against a background of really very low levels of spec development outside of London and Aberdeen (oil!).

However, on the other hand, Cardiff saw significantly less space built during the boom years than the bigger cities. I'm not sure it punched below its weight on a population basis, but did on an absolute basis compared to Leeds, Manchester, Bristol, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow. And Im not sure whether total space increased given the relatively small amount of new build and the large numbers of conversions.

This is a silly debate anyway.

I never said it was, I mentioned it as its an indication of what and where developers think they will make a return.


primarily resi certainly not a major office development that will get large corporates to relocate


so in the biggest property boom this country has ever known we manage to build one half of a windswept square and you laud that as an achievement. Bristol has templemeads, harbourside and aztec west in the same timeframe - all much larger developments with much better office quality. I won't even go on about Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds or Manchester as the developments in just one of those cities over the same period would dwarf the whole of Wales.


not going to disagree except that other apartments have gone up in similar places across the UK


sadly, we have no private sector developer who would agree with you and that is why the council have bought the land


no I don't, I think our city has a lot to offer and has come on in leaps and bounds. I'm a realist though and see that Cardiff has many failings, certainly the strength of the private sector. We are meant to be the capital and yet we have to have the council or WG buy up prime city centre land as no developer thinks they can turn a profit. That to me says an awful lot. You seem to think that having a mothballed Capital Quarter is good - it isn't. It is dreadful. I don't see any other developments being mothballed across the UK. In fact, you drive to Harbourside in Bristol and the new office development there is nearly finished and it was started 6 months after Capital Quarter.

ask yourself why I want a strong private sector? So we in Wales can stand on our own two feet and not have to rely on subsidy from Westminster. You seem to think that is not a worthy cause whereas I do. You don't stop the reliance by increasing the size of the public sector vis a vis Westminster subsidy


billions on a shopping centre. What good is that if we don't have any quality work so we can afford to pay for things.

incidentally, what hundreds of millions are being spent at present?


seems you set the bar really low - it is no wonder you think we're doing really well. Perhaps that is where we differ in that I set the bar high and appreciate if we can get our act together then we can achieve a whole lot more.



that is plain bollocks. M/cr has the co-op, there is plenty of development in M/Cr - they are laying track for another 100 miles of metrolink. There is always new build at Salford Quays and M/cr city centre around Ancoats is undergoing a major facelift.

Anyway, why are you continuously referring to other cities - this is about Cardiff and I would like to talk about how we can make this city better. I just happen to think that having the council and WG having to buy up land indicates that developers don't see our city as being particularly strong for commerce.


I don't, I just look at the reality and don't see fairies living at the bottom of my garden



@Cambo
it is not about being right or wrong. I never mentioned any other city and want to talk about Cardiff. I find it incredulous that people cannot see that Cardiff lacks any sort of commercial gravitas if it has to rely on the council and WG to buy up prime city centre real estate. Clearly you disagree.

As I've said, when I come on this forum I want to talk about Cardiff and its positives and its negatives. Pretending that all is rosy in the garden because we are having Admiral build a new HO is papering over the cracks. Cardiff has a weak private sector and something needs to be done to improve it. Having the council and WG buy up the land they have just reinforces the view that developers don't see Cardiff as worthy of their investment

Well answered old chap.

an interesting thing from the green paper shows that Manchester is the best city in the UK for private investment outside of London whilst Cardiff is 27th. So hopefully we can start to see an improvement to Cardiff which will make it even better than it already is. Hopefully in the top 10 for developments in the future seeing as we are about the 10th biggest city in the UK.

You haven't really selected a very representative statistic from the Green Paper. The ranking you quote is for the number of inward investment projects over a two year period, 2009-2011. There are many other tables and charts in the document showing how well Cardiff has performed over the past 25 years.
For instance we rank highly in terms of competitiveness.
http://www.askcardiff.com/ObjView.asp?Object_ID=25540&Language=
on pages 10-11 of the document.
I just didn't agree with Jantra's assertion that:
" yet more evidence that Cardiff and Wales struggles to attract the private sector to prime city centre development spots."

Besides, he's been proved wrong as the Council has pulled out of the bidding for this plot and it's being sold to a PRIVATE SECTOR INVESTOR!
Can't wait to see what the self-hating welshmen will come up with in response to that news

you are citing an article from Cardiff City Council - they are hardly going to paint an unbiased picture are they. They will pick and choose the stats that tell the best story.

page 10 - Cardiffs unemployment has doubled in ten years whereas it's population has not. How is that showing Cardiff's competitiveness?

page 11 - Cardiff is about the UK average in terms of competitiveness - I reckon what makes us so competitive is the fact that we have wages/salaries a lot lower than anywhere else. just a hunch.

if a private sector investor has purchased the Seren site then great - that is good news. I've not looked that hard but can't find anything about it on the wunderweb

as for your last comment - sticks and stones. I have my opinion that Cardiff ha a weak private sector. Clearly you think we are an economic powerhouse. Perhaps then you can explain why Capital Quarter is in the state its in?

The news about the Seren site is in WalesOnline . It hasn't been sold yet as it is up for auction. I quote:

"Russell Goodway has confirmed Cardiff council had withdrawn from bidding for an acre of vacant land next to Cardiff Central station.He said publicity of the council's interest had driven up the asking price, adding: 'You end up in a competition and I'm not prepared to do that.'I'm not prepared to overpay council taxpayers' money for a piece of land. Council taxpayers' money is important to me and I want to make sure I get the best value I possibly can.'The Wood Street site - previously proposed for a 50-storey, £32m 'glass needle' tower - was valued at between £2m and £3m.Coun Goodway confirmed he had hoped to create a new road running in front of the station, running from Wood Street to Saunders Road, but said: 'That's not going to be possible now.'A local developer is believed to be the front runner to complete the purchase and an announcement is expected shortly. Coun Goodway said he hoped to sit down with 'partner organisations' to discuss the future of the area north of the station."

I don't think that Cardiff is an economic powerhouse. I think that in UK terms we are a fairly affluent,successful city which has seen a great deal of private and public sector investment recently.
This Rebuilding Momentum paper is Goodway's baby and attempts to show the 8 years of LibDem rule (the latter 4 years in coalition with Plaid) in a negative light. Labour are riven with conflict over the LDP and Goodway,Cook,Michael,Thomas,Gouvier and Joyce are desperately trying to regain credibility. The Westminster and Senedd groups generally hate Goodwage and an imminent reshuffle will see Carwyn marginalise the Labour group on the Council further.
As to Capital Quarter, just look at the last two "Today's Picture" on this site.

first you say this

then you say this



which are not the same thing. The fact is the site is up for auction and it may not be sold at all. Now the council have pulled out I imagine the price will fall.

anyway, the sale (or otherwise) or the Seren site is moot. The point i am making is that Cardiff is not doing well in UK terms. If we compare (as you have done) to say Hull, Bradford, Stoke or Plymouth then you will see we have another layer of government over us that they do not have. Without which Cardiff's economy would lose something like 5,000 (or whatever the number is) WG jobs. This would have a serious impact as it accounts for 1-2% or so of the total workforce in Cardiff (maybe more). Take that away and all the largesse that goes with it and you'll see that actually, we're not performing anywhere near as well.

I appreciate you need a public sector but to say we are doing just as well because we are a de jeure capital with all the bureaucracy that goes with it does not mean we are competing or doing as well as others. They don't have the capital and cash inflows to their local economies from Westminster to pay for the Senedd, WG and NAW and all the civil servants that go with it. This has a significant impact on the economy and you cannot ignore it. Without it then i'm pretty sure Cardiff's economy would not do so well.

finally, I don't get your point about pic of the day - Capital Quarter has been like that for weeks - a point I have already made. Little progress is being made on the building as we all know. so I ask again, if Cardiff's private sector is doing so well, why have JR Smart all but stopped working on Capital Quarter?