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Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

murfilicious
Here it is: (click here for a larger version)
Dashed routes indicate new or reopened lines, accompanied by a little note.
I'm aware I've forgotten to include Llanedeyrn and Pentwyn, and I could probably include another one or two in the city centre - but it's a work in progress




That is a completely different map from the new one produced by the WG task force.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

mustrum_ridcully
Have a look at the google map http://goo.gl/maps/30FMy, the railway line used to run from grangetown station all the way to the ISV site. Now a large portion of the route has been built on.


Interesting, thanks.

The part of the route I was thinking of (the IKEA end of Ferry road) is as I thought it was - but, you're right the corridor has been breached further west. I'm still not sure that it's a huge problem given the delivery yards on the opposite side of the road.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Ash
mustrum_ridcully
Have a look at the google map http://goo.gl/maps/30FMy, the railway line used to run from grangetown station all the way to the ISV site. Now a large portion of the route has been built on.


Interesting, thanks.

The part of the route I was thinking of (the IKEA end of Ferry road) is as I thought it was - but, you're right the corridor has been breached further west. I'm still not sure that it's a huge problem given the delivery yards on the opposite side of the road.


Not a problem, build the track on the road or knock down the houses!

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

george
where do you propose the ferry road/sports village spur would go? some idiot decided to build crappy houses/flats over much of the old track bed...

The service road behind Asda and the retail park is quite wide, with pavements/cycle paths both sides and grassed area between the service areas. Using Google Maps as a rough guess I'd say this is about 27 metres wide - this could easily be reconfigured to a narrower arrangement, with a shared route for the trams and cycle path next to a newly aligned road.

Using the Nottingham Tram Network as an example, a typical pair of tracks (one in each direction) needs a corridor of about 9m, same as a two-lane highway. (9m for the tram route and cycle path and another 9m for the road leaves us about another 9m for pavement, separation zone, grass planters, station platforms etc...

Obviously when you get to the junction with Ikea it would kink slightly and carry on the old embankment between Ikea Car Park and Clive Street up to Grangetown Station.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

TheLordcrow
Thanks for the link. That map in the article is positively titchy, though it does make me wonder, if it ever did happen, where would the stops be?




A zoomable version of the map in the recently released report is on page 40 of this pdf file:

http://www.sewta.gov.uk/uploads/documents/116/original/Board_2013-06-14_COMBINED_withCover.pdf?1370942771

indeed, there is loads and loads of information in the document.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

murfilicious

The service road behind Asda and the retail park is quite wide, with pavements/cycle paths both sides and grassed area between the service areas.


You've lost me!? "Service Road behind ASDA". I see that as Ferry Road (a little more than a 'Service Road') from your 'description'. I can't be right because that doesn't have cycle paths on both sides and you'd have called it Ferry Road. So, which road are you talking about??

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Idunno
murfilicious

The service road behind Asda and the retail park is quite wide, with pavements/cycle paths both sides and grassed area between the service areas.


You've lost me!? "Service Road behind ASDA". I see that as Ferry Road (a little more than a 'Service Road') from your 'description'. I can't be right because that doesn't have cycle paths on both sides and you'd have called it Ferry Road. So, which road are you talking about??


I do mean Ferry Road, my mistake - I thought Ferry Road terminated at the Ikea Roundabout, didn't think that road running behind Asda, Sports Direct etc. had a name.

I didn't make myself clear, there are pavements on both sides (fairly wide ones at 2.5m each when there's nothing around there), the east side has a cycle path (an additional 2m) and the west side has a grassed area (about 9m) between the pavement and the rear of the shops.

When all of this is taken into account you have a corridor running from Ikea south to the Morisons/Watermark roundabout which is about 27m wide. This is more than enough room to implement a carriageway, tram route, cycle path, pavements etc...

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Thanks for that. In any event, as they do in Manchester, there would be no problem running the tracks in the roadway. Cheaper than constructing a separate section I would have thought?.

BTW - Ferry Road (strange road...) continues on down to Watermark apartments but also turns right up side of ASDA and ALDI until traffic lights opposite Frankie and Benny's then it becomes Dunleavy Drive. As I said.....strange road!

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Idunno
Ferry Road (strange road...) continues on down to Watermark apartments but also turns right up side of ASDA and ALDI until traffic lights opposite Frankie and Benny's then it becomes Dunleavy Drive. As I said.....strange road!


It used to be more sensible! It originaly ran along the waterfront to the mouth of the Ely where there was a chain ferry for pedestrians - hence the name.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

@Ash

Thanks for that. When I said 'strange', I didn't mean the name - more the configuration. I can understand it running from Avondale Road down to IKEA then along past what used to be Staples, then ASDA and on to Watermark. It just seems 'strange' to me that it is also that road which runs alongside ASDA and ALDI up to the lights at Frankie & Benny's. It would seem more practical for Dunleavy Drive to continue down past ASDA and ALDI to the roundabout at Ferry Road......if you catch my drift...?

Perhaps I have a need for things to be more straightforward??

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Ash
Idunno
Ferry Road (strange road...) continues on down to Watermark apartments but also turns right up side of ASDA and ALDI until traffic lights opposite Frankie and Benny's then it becomes Dunleavy Drive. As I said.....strange road!


It used to be more sensible! It originaly ran along the waterfront to the mouth of the Ely where there was a chain ferry for pedestrians - hence the name.


I thought the ferry as in Ferry Road crossed the Taff and not the Ely? The 1880 map shows Ferry Road in Grangetown turning where Kent Street is and then crossing the Taff via a swing bridge into Butetown continuing across the canal sea lock and ending in Eleanor Street near the Windsor Esplanade. I am sure I read somewhere that a ferry preceeded this bridge. On the other end of Ferry Road there used to be a foot tunnel under the River Ely coming out near where the marina is now.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Loving this post. It would be so good to see a metro style system in Cardiff as mentioned in the same way as the DLR in London.
Sadly it'll never happen because of the huge cost, although such a system would bring economic development and provide much needed alternatives to the ever congested roads in the City. You may even find that a viable competeter to Cardiff bus would inspire them to reduce costs and improve services.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

If I could, I'd spend all the money in the Welsh treasury on building on, alle £12.34 of it. Maybe one day.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

On the continent it is quite common for cities of Cardiff's size to have a completely integrated travel system. In Spain most 'big' cities have a metro. Malaga is even building one but the money dried up but tgat's a different story. It was very short sighted of the people of the past to get rid of the tram system in Cardiff. We need it and it is now going to cost us a lot of money to upgrade our system.

Even though the Welsh Government can't borrow is there a way that they could get the 10 or so counties which would be effected by these plans to borrow the money together to fulfil their part of the costs whilst WG could back them with the reserves? Or is that illegal under British or European law?

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

This metro should have happened years ago ( of course we still don't know if it will happen ) doesn't take much vision to see our extensive rail network in South Wales as a legacy of the coal era and see that a scheme like this is the natural way to progress. In my view it beggers belief why we didn't start thinking about this the same time as the redevolpment of Cardiff bay, construction of the Millenium stadium and all that "cool Cymru" shit in the 90s. Around here we punch above our weight in so many and in others not so much but we really should not have to put up with such a piss poor transport network considering we are a European capital city.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Is there any way that we could evenly distribute the numbers for metro and bus. We don't want too many people on the metro, and we don't want the buses at overcapacity, like they are now.

Just going on my childhood in South Korea, and my school years in Japan, people rely heavily on the metro, and the other methods of transport have low passenger figures because of it.

Hopefully, if it ever did happen, the inclusion of a metro would force the bus service to cut its prices to stay competitive.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

TheLordcrow
......and we don't want the buses at overcapacity, like they are now.



Whenever I've travelled by bus, it was practically empty - about 10 people at most. If you want people on public transport, you have to take some risks. Reduce fares and ban private traffic in town centres. In one Italian city many years ago, they banned private cars, sacked traffic wardens and gave free 'Park & Ride'. The choices are there if you've got the b***s!

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Probably not that significant (or even relevant) but I did notice a couple of days ago that the disused railway bridge over Llantrisant Road near the old Rhydlafar hospital site (the one which used to carry the line from Creigiau Quarry to the Docks) had scaffolding erected on it and a skip at the bottom.

Today driving past I noticed that the skip has gone and it seems that all the vegetation that has accumulated over the years of inactivity has been removed!

I don't think they're about to reopen the line, but clearing the bridge to carry out structural surveys or repair work? Possibly! Like I say, might be nothing...

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Metro is getting closer...
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/plan-overhaul-welsh-rail-network-5692680

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

all those have been on the books for years, nothing new, just a new call.
all good though.
still cannot see where the money comes from for most of it mind.
no rail service in wales makes money, everything we have is hugely subsidised. more people may bring in some more revenue but heavy rail is hugely costly.
where should the investment be focused, that's the question?

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Can we please be clear about the Creigau line. It won't get built without some compulsory purchase going on and I'm sure they'd be a fair few people unhappy about a railway line suddenly opposite their back garden. Be nice to see though.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

In the news today is 60m being committed by the welsh government over three years to kick start the metro region. I suppose it is better than nothing but what do they hope to achieve with 20m or so per annum. The total cost was estimated at 1.5bn. This is only going to rise over time.

20m per annum, the majority of which will be spent on public sector bureaucracy and waste rather than actual end results, is not going to deliver much at all.

I fully expect public consultations taking years to decide how to allocate the money, committed, sub committees, draft reports, implementation strategies and a whe host of other documentation that eats away at the budget and ends up in the pockets of consultancy firms and not infrastructure contractors pockets. I hope I'm wrong but this left wing state we find ourselves in cannot focus on results and can only work to processes without any thought of what they are doing and why they do it.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

In the news today is 60m being committed by the welsh government over three years to kick start the metro region. I suppose it is better than nothing but what do they hope to achieve with 20m or so per annum. The total cost was estimated at 1.5bn. This is only going to rise over time.

20m per annum, the majority of which will be spent on public sector bureaucracy and waste rather than actual end results, is not going to deliver much at all.

I fully expect public consultations taking years to decide how to allocate the money, committees, sub committees, draft reports, implementation strategies and a whole host of other documentation that eats away at the budget and ends up in the pockets of consultancy firms and not infrastructure contractors who put the actual metro system in place. I hope I'm wrong but this left wing state we find ourselves in cannot focus on results and can only work to processes without any thought of what they are doing and why they do it.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Jantra
In the news today is 60m being committed by the welsh government over three years to kick start the metro region. I suppose it is better than nothing but what do they hope to achieve with 20m or so per annum. The total cost was estimated at 1.5bn. This is only going to rise over time.

20m per annum, the majority of which will be spent on public sector bureaucracy and waste rather than actual end results, is not going to deliver much at all.

I fully expect public consultations taking years to decide how to allocate the money, committed, sub committees, draft reports, implementation strategies and a whe host of other documentation that eats away at the budget and ends up in the pockets of consultancy firms and not infrastructure contractors pockets. I hope I'm wrong but this left wing state we find ourselves in cannot focus on results and can only work to processes without any thought of what they are doing and why they do it.


Came in to post almost exactly this - £60m will rapidly disappear with no apparent progress made in delivering this scheme.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Cardiff Civic Society held a conference on the LDP last night at the RWCMD. Mark Barry was one of five panelists alongside Rhodri Morgan, Kevin Morgan, Dylan Jones-Evans and John Punter (Professor in planning at Cardiff Uni).

Mark mentioned the impending launch of the Metro document.

The overwhelming view of the attendees was that the plan to build thousands of houses on fields in west and north Cardiff shouldn't occur until a Cardiff Metro exists or at the very least is fully funded.
Mark suggested that a Cardiff to Beddau line would be constructed after much of the housing at Waterfall had been constructed. No-one had any firm proposals for connecting the planned suburbs in north Cardiff fo the rail network.

The plan is to have express bus corridors, down either Llantrisant or St Fagans roads until the metro is complete. No proposals as to how the Metro will be funded were announced.

Kevin Morgan and Dylan Jones-Evans were opposed to the current LDP. KM believed the elecrification of the S Wales rail network allowed for revitalizing the Valleys at transport nodes and DJE derided the LDP's total lack of a plan to create 40000 jobs for the people who will live in the 41000 new homes to be employed in.

Prof Punter thought the LDP was great and had no criticism to declare.

Rhodri Morgan behaved very eccentrically and made little sense.

All panelists believed that strategic planning should be at a regional level but Punter and R Morgan had no answer to questions from the floor as to why this hadn't occurred. K Morgan wanted LDPs scrapped and to start again at city-region level.

Kay Powell, the former head of planning at Welsh Government was in the audience and agreed with K Morgan and demanded that we start again, plan for housing and jobs around the electrified rail network.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

B. Lee Dingobvious
Rhodri Morgan behaved very eccentrically and made little sense.





not much different from normal then

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

A £2Bn transport project will take £££ to develop. Nottingham Tram first phases cost £400M capex and took £10M+ to develop before anyone got near a shovel.....

Metro now has a budget line..... so applaud that ? Progress is being made...but it is a 20 yr project...with some "quick" wins

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

£10m spent - on what? that is my point, why can't you just start the project, why do you need all of this background noise that few if any ever read.

if we need to spend £10m on the initial paperwork that will be half of this years budget and one sixth of the overall budget available. shocking.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

M
A £2Bn transport project will take £££ to develop. Nottingham Tram first phases cost £400M capex and took £10M+ to develop before anyone got near a shovel.....

Metro now has a budget line..... so applaud that ? Progress is being made...but it is a 20 yr project...with some "quick" wins


If the Metro becomes a reality then I agree that we should develop along the Metro corridors. The danger is that we will build tens of thousands of houses in places unconnected to the rail network which will remain unconnected because the funding for the Metro is unobtainable.

Looking at London, the major developments have been/will be Isle of Dogs, Greenwich peninsula, Stratford, Nine Elms/Battersea power station and Old Oak Common. In each of these, the rail network (DLR/HS1/LU/Crossrail) were either built or fully funded before development took place.

We are gambling with Cardiff's future. Some very greedy landowners and housebuilders are lobbying to build now. We need to follow London's example and get this Metro built or fully funded.

A Public Bank for Wales would be a great vehicle for this fundraising.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

B. Lee Dingobvious
M
A £2Bn transport project will take £££ to develop. Nottingham Tram first phases cost £400M capex and took £10M+ to develop before anyone got near a shovel.....

Metro now has a budget line..... so applaud that ? Progress is being made...but it is a 20 yr project...with some "quick" wins


If the Metro becomes a reality then I agree that we should develop along the Metro corridors. The danger is that we will build tens of thousands of houses in places unconnected to the rail network which will remain unconnected because the funding for the Metro is unobtainable.

Looking at London, the major developments have been/will be Isle of Dogs, Greenwich peninsula, Stratford, Nine Elms/Battersea power station and Old Oak Common. In each of these, the rail network (DLR/HS1/LU/Crossrail) were either built or fully funded before development took place.

We are gambling with Cardiff's future. Some very greedy landowners and housebuilders are lobbying to build now. We need to follow London's example and get this Metro built or fully funded.

A Public Bank for Wales would be a great vehicle for this fundraising.

why would a public bank be perfect for this? What could a public bank offer that a private bank couldn't?

I've asked the question before but no-one seems capable of answering, how would such a bank be funded? where would its tier 1 capital come from? what levels of tier 2 capital would it look to hold?

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Jantra
£10m spent - on what? that is my point, why can't you just start the project, why do you need all of this background noise that few if any ever read.

if we need to spend £10m on the initial paperwork that will be half of this years budget and one sixth of the overall budget available. shocking.


In my experience with projects, it is better to spend more in the concept and planning stages than diving straight in to the implementation stages.

Things missed early on tend to be very expensive in the long run.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

colour wolf
Jantra
£10m spent - on what? that is my point, why can't you just start the project, why do you need all of this background noise that few if any ever read.

if we need to spend £10m on the initial paperwork that will be half of this years budget and one sixth of the overall budget available. shocking.


In my experience with projects, it is better to spend more in the concept and planning stages than diving straight in to the implementation stages.

Things missed early on tend to be very expensive in the long run.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Jantra
B. Lee Dingobvious
M
A £2Bn transport project will take £££ to develop. Nottingham Tram first phases cost £400M capex and took £10M+ to develop before anyone got near a shovel.....

Metro now has a budget line..... so applaud that ? Progress is being made...but it is a 20 yr project...with some "quick" wins


If the Metro becomes a reality then I agree that we should develop along the Metro corridors. The danger is that we will build tens of thousands of houses in places unconnected to the rail network which will remain unconnected because the funding for the Metro is unobtainable.

Looking at London, the major developments have been/will be Isle of Dogs, Greenwich peninsula, Stratford, Nine Elms/Battersea power station and Old Oak Common. In each of these, the rail network (DLR/HS1/LU/Crossrail) were either built or fully funded before development took place.

We are gambling with Cardiff's future. Some very greedy landowners and housebuilders are lobbying to build now. We need to follow London's example and get this Metro built or fully funded.

A Public Bank for Wales would be a great vehicle for this fundraising.

why would a public bank be perfect for this? What could a public bank offer that a private bank couldn't?

I've asked the question before but no-one seems capable of answering, how would such a bank be funded? where would its tier 1 capital come from? what levels of tier 2 capital would it look to hold?


A public bank would lend at much lower rates than a commercial bank. Tier 1 capital would derive from shares issued to the public sector creators of the bank, the Welsh Government and Local Authorities if they chose to be part of its creation.

Remember that all nations on Earth have successful Public Banks apart from Latvia, Cyprus , UK and Canada. Public banking works well in every country and underpins the German economic system that you love so much, Jantra.
Why don't you just research it yourself? It will happen here too, hopefully, regardless of the opposition of the mighty Jantra.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

colour wolf
Jantra
£10m spent - on what? that is my point, why can't you just start the project, why do you need all of this background noise that few if any ever read.

if we need to spend £10m on the initial paperwork that will be half of this years budget and one sixth of the overall budget available. shocking.


In my experience with projects, it is better to spend more in the concept and planning stages than diving straight in to the implementation stages.

Things missed early on tend to be very expensive in the long run.



Projects tend to duplicate work done. Marks initial report will contain a lot of the groundwork. There won't be any need to reinvent the wheel

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

What public bank of note does the USA have? Do t say the bank of North Dakota as its tiny. This tier 1 capital that the welsh government is investing? Wouldn't it be easier to inject it via loans through finance Wales outside of the regulated banking system that is subject to the fca, prc and Basel accords 1, 2 and 3? Why would you choose a more heavily regulated way to invest into welsh business?

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Jantra
£10m spent - on what? that is my point, why can't you just start the project, why do you need all of this background noise that few if any ever read.

if we need to spend £10m on the initial paperwork that will be half of this years budget and one sixth of the overall budget available. shocking.


Standard DfT and Treasury guidelines, five case business model, full transport and options appraisal, engineering assessments, operational modal determination, TWA, land assembly, EIA, funding strategy (capex and opex) etc. No major transport project anywhere in UK can progress without such.

We have strategic intent - we now need to do the detailed work that is required. Naïve to think we can progress to shovels without this in place.

Looks like the budget is for next two years only....Metro could be a 15/20 year project

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

M
Jantra
£10m spent - on what? that is my point, why can't you just start the project, why do you need all of this background noise that few if any ever read.

if we need to spend £10m on the initial paperwork that will be half of this years budget and one sixth of the overall budget available. shocking.


Standard DfT and Treasury guidelines, five case business model, full transport and options appraisal, engineering assessments, operational modal determination, TWA, land assembly, EIA, funding strategy (capex and opex) etc. No major transport project anywhere in UK can progress without such.

We have strategic intent - we now need to do the detailed work that is required. Naïve to think we can progress to shovels without this in place.

Looks like the budget is for next two years only....Metro could be a 15/20 year project



When you say can't progress do you mean because all the boxes aren't ticked or because every document is absolutely essential to the project and without them those working on it would be in the dark? As an example, what is a transport and options appraisal for? This policy is about implementing a metro region, why do we need to consider options - you've already done the groundwork for that. It seems like typical project requirements of having many documents that all cross over and substantially say the same thing

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Jantra
M
Jantra
£10m spent - on what? that is my point, why can't you just start the project, why do you need all of this background noise that few if any ever read.

if we need to spend £10m on the initial paperwork that will be half of this years budget and one sixth of the overall budget available. shocking.


Standard DfT and Treasury guidelines, five case business model, full transport and options appraisal, engineering assessments, operational modal determination, TWA, land assembly, EIA, funding strategy (capex and opex) etc. No major transport project anywhere in UK can progress without such.

We have strategic intent - we now need to do the detailed work that is required. Naïve to think we can progress to shovels without this in place.

Looks like the budget is for next two years only....Metro could be a 15/20 year project



When you say can't progress do you mean because all the boxes aren't ticked or because every document is absolutely essential to the project and without them those working on it would be in the dark? As an example, what is a transport and options appraisal for? This policy is about implementing a metro region, why do we need to consider options - you've already done the groundwork for that. It seems like typical project requirements of having many documents that all cross over and substantially say the same thing


The USA only has one public bank but virtually every country on Earth funds a great deal of its private and public infrastructure investment using the public banking model.

I really can't believe that you, Jantra, a troll, are arguing with M, Mark Barry, the man behind the most important infrastructure project in our nation for centuries about how to go about his business!
Why didn't you attend the conference on Tuesday night and put your absurd questions to him in person?

Who in the hell do you think you are?

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

I'm not arguing with anyone. I asked mark a question about whether every single piece of documentation was necessary. It was a simple enough question even for you to understand. In my experience of projects there is a significant amount of overlap and repetition between documents and what they try to achieve. At no point did I say planning wasn't necessary, just that we don't seem to do planning very well in the UK, preferring a bureaucratic rather than a results based approach. it is going to take the uk until 2026 to build 100 miles of HS2 railtrack. That's about 8 miles per year. Have a look at how china goes about these projects: 5800 (five thousand eight hundred) miles in five years. That's nearly 1,200 miles per annum.

In Wales we have a project cost of 1.5bn (which will rise over time) and we are spending 20m per annum. That's going to take us 75 years at current prices. Yet you think I'm wrong to question our approach to planning (and funding). Mark clearly understands this project so why doesn't the welsh government say

'mark, we have 20m to spend, which elements will give us biggest bang for buck?'.

Mark will no doubt have his own opinions based on the work done to date so why do we need to reinvent the wheel. Why dant we ask the experts what to do and where to start and crack on with it?* do you think the Victorians had all this rigmarole when they laid down the infrastructure we have today? Mark has said Himself it is the standard public sector model to follow. that doesnt make it the right model to follow.

*I'm assuming of course that similar assessments were undertaken when drafting the report otherwise if they weren't would it be possible to accurately say (in the report) what the benefits, impacts and timescales will be?

The shining example you have given of a public bank is in the USA. It's a tiny piece of the banking system and you think its the model we should follow. If it was so successful why isn't the USA, the world biggest economy, using that model as par for the course? Have you got any examples of where public banks form the backbone of the banking system in a free market liberalised economies such as ours? Even china has dumped the state owned banking model in favour of the private sector model (look at the ownership of the four largest Chinese banks)

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Jantra - I am a construction manager building international mega-projects and it is normal practice everywhere in the world to spend relatively small amounts of money at an earlier stage of a project to make sure that longer term goals are achieved at lower cost.

It is called front-loading or front end engineering and design (FEED).

Nothing to do with politics and everything to do with project management - although I agree with you that it does take too long to get anything built in Britain.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Jantra. It seems that you are jealous of other people's success and ideas and that you want to appear knowledgeable about any given subject. If an idea is proposed and then posted on this forum you are very negative about it. It doesn't really matter because nobody outside of CWM forum will ever take any notice of your views on these very important issues.

The USA, Canada and Uk are controlled by private banking cartels who, through their central banks (which have mysterious ownership) wish to maintain the hegemony of the City and of the dollar as the world's reserve currency. All other countries have different banking models eg Calcutta in W Bengal is building 3 new metro lines funded by the public banks in that state.

The proliferation of metro systems around the world (but not in the US or Canada and to a lesser extent in the UK than in Europe) is largely funded through public banks. The Mittelstand in Germany is funded through their system of public banks, Landesbanke and Sparkasse as is Germany's massive investment in local, small-scale renewable energy projects.

If you think that the Chinese State has relinquished control of its banking system then you are deluded.

Yes you are arguing. You can't help yourself.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Tallsmurf
Jantra - I am a construction manager building international mega-projects and it is normal practice everywhere in the world to spend relatively small amounts of money at an earlier stage of a project to make sure that longer term goals are achieved at lower cost.

It is called front-loading or front end engineering and design (FEED).

Nothing to do with politics and everything to do with project management - although I agree with you that it does take too long to get anything built in Britain.


I'm aware of the upfront cost and planning. My point is you're not going to achieve much with £20m per annum and certainly not with an approach that favours delivering documentation over putting shovels in the ground.

i'll ask again - did the Victorians have all these reports and documents? I'm pretty sure they just got on with it and it makes you wonder how incredibly lucky they were to have everything fall into place without having mountains of paperwork to tell them what to do.

I wonder why China can build 1200 miles per annum but we can only build 8.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

H M Arsée
Jantra. It seems that you are jealous of other people's success and ideas and that you want to appear knowledgeable about any given subject. If an idea is proposed and then posted on this forum you are very negative about it.

I'm certainly not jealous of anyone's success. You'll find that I'm not the one arguing for a triumphant march towards socialism where everyone is the same. as it happens, i'm not sure whose success I am supposed to be jealous of? What exactly has been achieved to date?

I also don't think being realistic is negative. The Welsh government has put £20m per annum in to a project that is costed at £1.5bn. Given the UK public sector is incapable of delivering projects on time and to budget we can probably double that. So at current rates and prices this project would take 150 years to deliver. Yet you suggest I'm negative. i was at least hoping for some news that the project would be finished before my grandchildren wre late of this parish.

H M Arsée

It doesn't really matter because nobody outside of CWM forum will ever take any notice of your views on these very important issues.
good. just as it should be. perhaps you need to take this forum and the views of those who post on it less seriously. I certainly don't pay any attention to what is posted here save for one or two posters who are very lucid in their response and articule in stating their opinions. Just for reference, this doesn't include you.

H M Arsée

The USA, Canada and Uk are controlled by private banking cartels who, through their central banks (which have mysterious ownership) wish to maintain the hegemony of the City and of the dollar as the world's reserve currency.

cartels have a word with yourself please.

H M Arsée

All other countries have different banking models eg Calcutta in W Bengal is building 3 new metro lines funded by the public banks in that state.
all other countries - are you sure? New Zealand, Germany, France, Spain, Greece, Australia, Japan, (you know, around the majority of the worlds economy)

H M Arsée

The proliferation of metro systems around the world (but not in the US or Canada and to a lesser extent in the UK than in Europe) is largely funded through public banks. The Mittelstand in Germany is funded through their system of public banks, Landesbanke and Sparkasse as is Germany's massive investment in local, small-scale renewable energy projects.

the SME's in Germany are funded by some state owned banks, but that does not mean all SME's are funded by state owned banks or that the only funding is from state owned banks. What an absurd thing to say. Germany has a very mature private banking sector that dwarfs its public banking sector. Lets not get carried away with dogma.

H M Arsée

If you think that the Chinese State has relinquished control of its banking system then you are deluded.

I never said any such thing. I said the public owned model has been discarded in China. The four biggest banks are predominantly private owned now. that is not saying the Chinese state doesn't control its own banking system in the same way that the Bank of England (vis a vis the UK government) doesn't control the UK banking system

H M Arsée

Yes you are arguing. You can't help yourself.

it is not arguing. i am doing exactly what you are doing, I am responding to a post giving my opinion or where you are making statements which are incorrect, I am restating them with the facts.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

I don't think it's wrong to ask what needs to be done before work gets underway, why that work needs to be done, how much will that take up of the budget, when will work (the type we can see) begin and what projects are likely to start first. I'd like to know all of that although I recognise that for many reasons those in the know will either not be able to provide answers or will be unwilling. I think Jantra asks some of the questions I would like to know the answers to although regretably for me he frames them in a way that seems to be designed to further his agenda re the public sector/WAG. That's my interpretation anyway.

I know next to nothing about how these projects move from an idea to physically getting built and as someone interested in development and architecture I'd love to know more. I'm very grateful to Mark for taking the time to post updates here(and Christopher on the Bayscape thread) and I don't think we realise just what a coup it is to have those 'in the know' giving us regular information. If the way that government (WG or Westminster) develop these projects involve duplication or waste (again I have no idea if this is the case) that's hardly Mark's fault and I'm not sure he should be asked to justify decisions/processes that are out of his control on here.

Just my two pennorth.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

You could have checked for yourself before posting your normal rubbish:

"Based on OECD studies, the German public banking system had a share of 40% of total banking assets in Germany.This shows the important and significant role of this group of banks in Germany."

Each country has a different banking system. Public Banking plays a larger part in the system in every country than it does in the UK, Canada, Cyprus and Latvia. That is a fact, Feedbore/Jantard/Marshite.

Expect news soon on Public Banking in Wales.

Your cross-messageboard tirade against the Metro project is making you look like a cross between Scrooge and Forest Gump. You aren't hated or loved, Marmite.

You are dismissed by anyone with insight as a narcissistic crank with abandonment issues.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

H M Arsée
You could have checked for yourself before posting your normal rubbish:

"Based on OECD studies, the German public banking system had a share of 40% of total banking assets in Germany.This shows the important and significant role of this group of banks in Germany."

what does this even mean? the amount a bank contributes to the economy is not measured with reference to its asset base (share capital, wholesale loans and deposits) but how much it lends.

H M Arsée

Each country has a different banking system. Public Banking plays a larger part in the system in every country than it does in the UK, Canada, Cyprus and Latvia. That is a fact, Feedbore/Jantard/Marshite.

who is saying it isn't? I'm not. the UK/USA etc has tiny public banking offerings. I'm not surprised everywhere else has public banking sectors that form a larger proportion. 2% is much greater than 0.1% but that doesn't make 2% a significant number.

H M Arsée

Expect news soon on Public Banking in Wales.

proposed by whom? this has to be lead by WG and they haven't said anything of note yet. not only that, considering our governments of all levels have a shortage of cash in Wales, who exactly is going to invest? Are you prepared to see a reduction in services just to set up this public bank?

H M Arsée

Your cross-messageboard tirade against the Metro project is making you look like a cross between Scrooge and Forest Gump. You aren't hated or loved, Marmite.

it is not a tirade, I can't see what £20m per annum is going to achieve. Perhaps you're expecting great things but i reckon we'll end up with a few lines painted on roads for bus lanes and thats about it.

H M Arsée

You are dismissed by anyone with insight as a narcissistic crank with abandonment issues.
you forgot to add, in your opinion. You seem to think it is wrong to ask questions. All I want to know is why, when mark's report must have already included all those things required by the adopted HMT process, do we need to do them again? What value is there to be had?

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

The metro is a medium to long term project but with some short term actions that could be brought forward. But the key will be electrification of GWR then Valley Lines and that is the timescale to follow.

In my opinion the first strategic step should be the splitting of the Arriva Wales franchise into two parts when it is up for renewal in 2017(?) - into a SE Wales network franchise which will form the core of the metro and a ''rest of wales' franchise - both of which should be fully devolved.

A SE Wales passenger transport authority should then be established to run the metro and personally I would establish THREE metro brands -
- Cardiff Metro operating all stations in Cardiff and VoG, operating city line, coryton line and cardiff bay lines, and also Cardiff Buses
- Glamorgan Metro operating all remaining stations in Glamorgan, operating Maesteg, Rhonnda, Aberdare and Merthyr lines
- Gwent Metro operating all stations in Gwent, operating Ebbw and Chepstow lines and Newport buses.
Rhymney Valley lines and stations could be in Gwent or Glamorgan metro?

As new stations and lines are added these would be assigned to one if the Metros and with new key bus services added, especially the cross valley links in Glamorgan.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Jantra
M
Jantra
£10m spent - on what? that is my point, why can't you just start the project, why do you need all of this background noise that few if any ever read.

if we need to spend £10m on the initial paperwork that will be half of this years budget and one sixth of the overall budget available. shocking.


Standard DfT and Treasury guidelines, five case business model, full transport and options appraisal, engineering assessments, operational modal determination, TWA, land assembly, EIA, funding strategy (capex and opex) etc. No major transport project anywhere in UK can progress without such.

We have strategic intent - we now need to do the detailed work that is required. Naïve to think we can progress to shovels without this in place.

Looks like the budget is for next two years only....Metro could be a 15/20 year project



When you say can't progress do you mean because all the boxes aren't ticked or because every document is absolutely essential to the project and without them those working on it would be in the dark? As an example, what is a transport and options appraisal for? This policy is about implementing a metro region, why do we need to consider options - you've already done the groundwork for that. It seems like typical project requirements of having many documents that all cross over and substantially say the same thing


I'd imagine that options appraisal consider detailed options. Where precisely should each new station be built? If new track is laid/proposed, which route should it take?

Brunel didn't just start laying track from London and reach Bristol by luck you know.

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

Wouldn't marks report already include some of that? For the report to be accurate in any way some options would need to be assessed, costed with timescales estimated. Why can't marks report be used as the basis.

Do you really think IKB had to prepare a five case business plan? I don't. Have you had a look at what that template contains. Lots of overlap in itself and with the other reports suggested. Why?

The uk is poor at project delivery. The focus is on processes rather than results. You don't needs thousands of pages telling you what to do.

What I want to know is this:-

How much, if any, of the 1.5bn cost is being used for electrifying the main line?
Ditto with the 350m valleys electrification?
If the answer to both is neither, then what are we getting for the 1.5bn?
Does the report author have a commercial interest in project delivery? (More reports = more consultants fees)
Assuming the 1.5bn is not coming from central government, are we really looking at spending 20m per annum?
How much of the budget will be on project management and how much on actual delivery?
If this is a 20 year project as suggested, why doesn't the WG create a SPV and employ the required people through that vehicle than paying top end fees for external consultants? Get the same people on board but pay them a salary

Re: Cardiff Metro/Subway

My understanding - and I am sure this is in the published reports - is that the 1.5 bn for GWR electrification and 350mn for valleys lines electrification - covers the infrastructure and rolling stock of existing lines. This is the bulk of the expenditure in establishing a metro but clearly does not cover the cost of additional stations (at St Mellons, Crwys Rd, Llanwern etc) which come to around 5-10 million each nor the costs of any new lines to Beddau and/or J33 (100 mn) or cross city trams (200mn), Nor Cross valley bus services. The metro authority will have to make up a shopping list of what it wants and when, and then deliver this phased over a number of years. We are clearly not going to go from nothing to a fully integrated metro overnight- this is not the Middle East!

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