lol who is this MrJamesBrown

seems to know all the answers here .

Article in today's echo about train trams for the Cardiff and valleys metro area. Welsh government has said electrification to Swansea is more important. I would have thought biggest bang for buck would have been to spend the money on the valley lines and Cardiff metro.

It is indicative of the way policy seems to be defined in Wales. Shame really

I haven't seen the Echo article but technicaly it's not really possible to electrify the valley lines unless the main line is electrified as far as Bridgend.

Since having to use hybrid trains for Swansea-London services due to a non-electrified Bridgend-Swansea section would be ludicrous, electrification to Swnsea is more or less a prerequiste for electrification of the valley lines and any tram/light rail projects.

It's about developing a proper Metro network rather than doing 'one-offs' like the disasterous Edinburgh tram project.

Ash

Mark (IIRC) posted a paper on here a while back (or linked to the IFAs website)...it was a good paper and it discussed electrification of the valley lines. it itemised the cost as well.

Thanks, I'll dig it out.

Just thought I'd post the link to the echo article you've been referring to:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/03/21/wales-accused-of-snubbing-cost-effective-german-tram-trains-plan-for-valley-lines-91466-30581366/#sitelife-commentsWidget-bottom

In my opinion, electrification of the valley lines is extremely important

Here here!

I just hope we get some proper joined up thinking on this one. It seems odd that they have not created a huge Park and Ride at Taffs Well or even made a new stop with parking opposite Pughs Garden Centre in Morganstown. As a regular car and bus user on the A470 I would imagine at peak times it is well over capacity.

I've done a little digging, there are 4 lines between Glasgow and Edinburgh, two of which were electrified before devolution. They are looking to electrify a third line, via Falkirk, by 2016. This just gets harder to understand. If lowland Scotland had all this electrification investment before devolution, why was no-one in either the tory or labour party lobbying for even a teeny bit of leccy rail prior to 2008?

jantra - happy to be corrected, but I thought the SRA was broken up in 2006 with part of Welsh infrastructure passed over to WG (hence the reopening on the Ebbw Vale line).

i do like correcting you, as you are wrong here, the Wales and Borders Franchise was devolved in 2006, infrastructure was not until last year. Ebbw line and VoG were directly funded by WG.

the rest odf what you say i concur with, quite upsetting, in terms of comparing Cardiff to the rest of the uk, the WG City regions report is intere4sting in those comparisons, Cardiff is more a Preston! would put the link eher, but its quite intersting so may add it as a new topic in its own right.

M - thanks foir that blindin information.
No matter what political allegiance one has, it is high time that Infrastructure was devolved to Cardiff Bay.
Westminster is ripping us off heavy.
Over 3,000 miles of track and not a single mile of it in Wales.
No trams, no underground, just one motorway.
Bristol Airport is in a ten mile radius of 4 Motorways, no wonder it is attracting more airlines than Cardiff.
We are continually being neglected by the English Government.
Wake up Wales.

That's probably an accusation that could be labelled at the welsh government too

I bet if Bristol had the M4, M48 and A48(M) you'd count that as three?

It's not Westminster that stopped a new motorway to the south of Newport from being built is it?

Wales being ripped off by Westminster...

Based on 2006/2007 figures this is per capita government spending:
- UK average £7,362
- England £7,121 (the one who are ripping Wales off)
- Scotland £8,623
- Wales £8,139
- Northern Ireland £9,385

South West England gets £6,677 per capita (not subject to Barnett).

obviously a man of simple pleasures., whatevr floats your boat. as always, its not really the point being made but if you like oneupmanship then fair enough.



so now the dog is off the leash so to speak, what significant infrastructure projects have WG committed to funding 100% as a Wales only solution?

That is, have WG committed to developing anything themselves rather than go cap in hand as well as a begging bowl?

Or are they still saying WG will give us the Ice trains and the Shinkansen but only if its paid for by Westminster. That way, it is quite correct to say only WG have the vision for Wales but as always we are being held back by Westminster

The reason that spending is higher in Wales than England is largely down to ESA, DLA, JSA and pension payments being paid to a greater proportion of the population. It really is that simple. We are poorer here and need higher levels of welfare and benefits.

that is correct, our economy is structured in such a way that we will always be reliant on benefits and state work unless we become more pro business. given some peoples hatred of any party that is pro business whose aim is to create a culture of opportunity rather than a culture on entitlement, this structural problem won't be changing any time soon.

i do find it absurd that we continually criticise the English yes it is their munificence that allows a large part of our populace to enjoy the benefits they do. without English productivity there would not bbe the tax receipts to provide us with the standard of living we enjoy here in Wales.

Not sure if this story has been linked here, and a little off topic, but what do you make of this report Jantra?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardiffonline/cardiff-news/2012/03/31/cardiff-bay-is-on-the-right-track-says-economist-brian-morgan-91466-30663016/

In the Western Mail too! If you ask me it doesn't really say much, and it's quite amusing that it's a relatively short piece, probably about a fifth of the length of the average rugby article... but just wondering what you thoughts are...

so what we are saying is that:-

WG must stop focussing on populist policies and start focussing on infrastructure
WG must reduce red tape and needless bureaucracy
WG must create an environment that encourages businesses
WG must do more to encourage indigenous entreprenuers
Welsh entrepreneurs need access to start up and development capital

have I got the above wrong? it seems to me as if the above has been said by many (ok one - me) one this board for the past 5 years.

I would not say that Cardiff Bay/WG have got it right, but they are changing focus from death by paperwork - employ as many as possible in the public sector to ensure funds flow in to the Welsh economy. however, Rome most certainly was not built in a day and as the article suggests, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If WG previous performance is anything to go by, what will happen is we will see additional funding spent on bolstering the Welsh economy by creating more non jobs in the Welsh public sector.

You flatter yourself by suggesting that you are the only one on here calling for more investment in infrastucture, a pro business enviroment, reducing bureaucracy and encouraging indigenous entrepeneaurs. I'd say pretty much everyone who has posted on here calls for one, more or all of the above on a regular basis. It's just you tend to repeat yourself.......

strange that when i call for all of the above in my own imitable way some others descend into apoplexy. it seems we are not allowed to criticse Wales, its poor performance and the fact that England is powering ahead of us in all socio-economic areas. Whilst it may be true that most if not all want the above, few are prepared to accept that the left wing trotskyist ideology has failed Wales and as such it is now time to perhaps consider a right of centre approach to business development and reducing the influence of the state on our every day lives.

more importantly than all this nonsense about making Wales a better place for everyone, what do you think of Gavin Henson's latest indcident?

clearly a misunderstood man and as a great welsh rugby player I think it is criminal that FlyBe are treating him like an ordinary joe - do they not know who he is and what he is capable of?

I have to say I am very disappointed that only 16 pages were devoted to this story in todays papers. We need to know more.

I suppose the fact that the six nations are over and no one really gives a shit about rugby now means our rugby loving media have to fill up their papers somehow.

I don't think thats right. Off the top of my head I think Wizard, Hypercelt, Mustrum ridcully, Ash, me and others have all had a moan about the WG, the Labour party, the poor economic performance of wales etc in the last few days (apologies if I have wrongly attributed posts to anyone).

I think what you complain about is not that no-one recognises that Labour have served Wales poorly but that none of us accord exactly with your world view and that we don't all post replies saying things like 'exactly' and 'nail, head, hit' and 'you read my mind Jantra'..........



I'm being a bit tongue in cheek there but not much. You should read what other people post more closely.

I do read what other people post Karl, there are comments from people such as 'sick of jantra', or the ad hominem attacks from the likes or Eric, George and Mr Appeasement (although these have abated somewhat lately). Hypercelt and his comments that he sees my name and just doesn't read them anymore. thats his prerogative but such comments hardly add to the debate.

I do listen - just recently we discussed public sector pay differential across the UK regions and you articulated very well why it would be bad for Wales. I listened and took on board and cetainly did not discard what you said.

I have no problem listening to alternate points of view if they are articulated, but quite often posters on this forum add no analysis or critique and just revert to left wing labour shite as a standard response. I will never accept responses such as those although will listen to reasoned argument. my background is astro physics and the training is one of reasoned logical argument and not just saying it is so.

I always attempt to try and explain my position and whilst I don't expect everyone to agree, I would expect if people disagree they could at least attempt (as you have done) to explain the rationale for their own viewpoint. If explanation is beyond some people then there is no real debate.

the issue is - at least I think it is - that I am moderately right wing economically and this is a contentious issue for some as I happen to believe Wales path would be better served following the capitalist mantra than some pseduo chomskysit dogma. certainly capitalism provides a better standard of living on average.

i wonder if we can have a new branch of political thinking called hartism?

RE valleys electrification. Watch this space, a lot of people are working very hard to ensure Wales gets a slice of the next HLOS pie. As I said a very professional job done on business cases.

two points:

1 - no one doubts they work hard
2 - how does the business case stack up against all other business cases vying for the same funding? Does the GIB business case give you confidence that WG have the best credentials for drafting business cases compared to others who will also be vying for electrification?

perhaps where WG are concerned i'm a glass half empty kind of guy

Errrrrrrrm, it's obvious Jantra. The network of lines, tunnels, cuttings, embankments and stations is already there and has been for getting on for two centuries. There has been some investment on new signalling for the existing network. With,as M claims, half a £bil of investment we could have a 100+ station ultramodern metro serving over a million people. To build it from scratch would be many £billions. It's a no brainer (and I am going to pre-empt your dig at the lack of brains at WG so don't bother)

Over 3,000 miles of electrified track not a single mile in Wales.
How are we getting a good return from Westminster?
We are paying 1.5 billion for a railline that no one wants, especially in the Chilterns.
Infrastructure should be devoloved, surely this should be the concenus across the Welsh political Spectrum.
The impact it would have across the valleys, south Wales and the capital is immense.
Scotland is moving forward as they have devolved Transport, we are paying for English Schemes.
Look at all the Motorways that stop just before the border.
We are not on a level playing field.
Their are four motorways in Bristol alone.
The same number of more in Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, we have one stretch for the whole of Wales.
Westminster will always look after England.
We need a capital with balls the same size as Belfast, Edinbourgh or Dublin.

I'm not going to argue about the blueprint being there already/. My only concern is that if it is a no brainer, how come it hasn't happened during the boom years of 2003-2008 when the country was awash with tax receipts...where is this money going to come from now when we are in the midst of a famine?

WG have no money, they cannot fund the PDR, they cannot fund a fast road link from the M4 to CWL, they cannot fund....and on it goes...

so where is this magical £1bn going to come from? I reckon I know WG's answer and you'll find it just to the left of the city of London on a map.

whilst what you say makes sense, it is not the aspiration I am critical of, its the lack of ability to deliver. where do you think the funding for such development is going to come from...and no, the fairies at the bottom of your garden is not a correct answer

attacks?? attacks?? just correcting your erros old boy and they are aplenty.
Quite like some of your arguments and its not just you criticising WG, but some have slightly more open views perhaps and give a bit more credit where its due?
I give WG a bit more slack as I don't see westminister as the panacea you see - olympics planned for what was it 2.4 billion and now coming in under budget at 9.3 billion?? the ministry of defence funding diasters costing billions?? what was the recent audit report on the shared service centres?? the various IT overspends?? need I go on?
WG is a fledgling organisation, should it have time, maybe, maybe not and that depends on your ideology - but if your not going to get involved - see city regions page - then what do you expect.

Eric

I am not looking to Westminster. I only reference Westminster because some see them as the root of all our ills. I have asked the question before...when does the Welsh economic malaise cease being the responsibility of Westminster and start being the responsibility of the Senedd?

FWIW I care not for Westminster for they have devolved running certain aspects of my every day life. I dislike Westminster for it, they really should not have handed the lunatics the keys to the asylum but that's another argument. I wish we could have more grown up politics here in Wales rather than ever mention what we do/do not get from Westminster. We get a bunch of cash, it is up to us on how we use it.

if we elect baboons to office then we cannot get upset when all they show us is their arse.

so you are looking to europe for governance then???

can no longer tell what you are for!!

I happen to share many of your views re the performance of WG over the last 10+ yrs. However, I know as regards major rail infrastructure, Wales has been poorly served for 20+ years by Westminster (and rail infrastructure is still a non-devolved matter).

I also understand that BCRs calculated for valley lines wires and GWML to Swansea are well in excess of the that calculated for HS2 (which is defined as a UK scheme as was Crossrail).

Can’t comment on GIB stuff...however the business cases for Valley lines wires & GWML wires to Swansea are thorough and I suspect more detailed than some of the other schemes competing for DfT ££ from around England. As I said a lot of people from WG and the business community are working hard with the DfT to make this happen. Given the benefits that can be realised (operational and economic) I am optimistic of a +ve outcome.

I meant that given we have some degree of autonomy I don't think it correct to always blame Westminster when things go wrong. We need to take more responsibility here in Wales for when things go wrong.

For example, Welsh Labour and their rhetoric of protecting Wales from the Westminster cuts....what utter nonsense. Even with the cuts we are getting more than we put in. I'd just like to see Welsh Labour focus on Wales and making the place better rather than looking to gain political points by looking at what Westminster is not doing for Wales. it achieves nothing.

Snoop lives further down the mainline in San Portablo.
Visited Cardiff today had to go to Ikea.
Some of youse are knocking the Assembly Government that has been here since 97.
Being as this is a development forum may I remind you that
The Millenium Stadium,
The Millenium Centre,
St David's Hotel,
St David's Shopping Centre,
Alto Lusso
Riga rossa,
Century Wharf,
Sleeperz, The Cafe Quarter,
Cardiff City Stadium
the Senedd
3 Grand Slam's
Five FA Cup Finals
and you know the rest
none of it was here in 97.
Devolve Transport - demand a fair budget,
lets not pay for the Westcoast line, the east coast line, and everything else in England
let us sort out the infrastructure here in Wales and watch buisness in south Wales thrive.
Cardiff needs to get some of Swansea's swagger, pass and move and bamboozle.
A strong Capital with the grace of Bellamy, the Speed of Calzaghe, the voice of Church, the diva of Bassey, the stories of Dahl, the Swagger of Bale, the Slam of Welsh rugby, the flavour of brains, the growth of Admiral, the creativity of the boiler House.
Wake up Caerdydd - its time tp lead the way.
Cymru am byth, dyma hyd

other than the bit in bold, nothing, I repeat nothing, has anything to do with devolution. if you think Cardiff has done well since 1997 then I suggest you have a look at other cities around the UK and see how much they have changed in that time. It is on a much greater scale than we have seen here.



transport is devolved. the IWJ was the nats minister for transport and he was as much use as a second belly button


these lines are in the UK context going from London to Glasgow/Edinburgh, so it is correct that all members of the UK pay for infrastructure. If the St Athan military academy would have gone ahead, would you have expected Wales to pay for it in full? Perhaps we should pay for the running of the DVLA in Swansea. As always, whining about what we get with no reference to what we can give back.


you need more than infrastructure, you need a business friendly regime otherwise capital will stay away. Have either Welsh Labour or The Nats shown any sort of understanding as what constitutes business friendly. Endless crapulent bureaucracy, paperwork and needless processes providing work for the Welsh public sector is not creating a business friendly environment.

We have 1.5m workers in Wales, of which 0.5m are in the public sector. Germany has 40m workers of which 5m are in their public sector. Thats 1 in 8 compared to our 1 in 3. If you have been to Germany you'll understand their public services are on a far superior level than our own. Yet they do this with less tax receipts and fewer people. That is what we need to be aiming for. Less state intervention provides more competition and increases productivity.

If we were to achieve German levels of efficiency we would need less than 200k in our public sector here in Wales. Of course, being left wing, both Labour and the nats could never cope with having a smaller, more efficient, more productive state that is there to serve the people rather than be there to provide endless processes that add no value to anybody other than provide someone with a job.

Just out of interest, is the healthcare system in Germany public or private? The NHS in the UK is a public sector employer, with 1.7 million staff, (apparently the 5th largest employer in the world). Could this account for at least some of the difference in public sector employee ratios between countries?

The Millenium Stadium,
The Millenium Centre,

Funded by the National Lottery that was established by Westminster. Stadium was announced during the Conservative government of John Major.


St David's Hotel,
St David's Shopping Centre,
Alto Lusso
Riga rossa,
Century Wharf,
Sleeperz, The Cafe Quarter,
Cardiff City Stadium

Built by private enterprise, during a massive property boom (perhaps helped by government policy at Westminster).


3 Grand Slam's

What?


Five FA Cup Finals

Thanks to the National Lottery funded stadium...

Another report on fracking on WalesOnline.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/04/04/revealed-the-government-fracking-plans-that-will-hit-half-of-wales-91466-30686629/

Even if just a small fraction of the projected £70 billion was actually realised, this would pay for a fair few of our hit list of infrastructure projects and tax relief for business.

Surely this should be given serious consideration and not just discarded because of environmental concerns. Obviously we need assurances regarding safety and environmental impact, but I really think Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, RSPB etc etc blow everything out of proportion. I think if it were up to them we'd all still live in caves and there would have been a ban on the invention of the wheel and fire.

Seem to remember John Major's government controversialy pulling the plug on the opera house.
Think you will find that the Assembly more than patched the Lottery for the funding of the Millenium Centre.
Over 40% of network's Rail's infrastructure in Great britain is electrified.
0% of Network Rail's infrastructure is electrified in Wales.
HELLO! HELLO! SUT MAE? HOLA! BONJOUR! YASSOU!
Smell the coffee, taste the kippers, take of the blinkers, we are being stiched

As for the Millenium Stadium the lottery awarded a higher grant to the At Bristol project than it did to the Millenium Stadium.
Shall I list all the other English projects that have had higher funding. it will not be hard.
This is about rail and the lack of investment in Wales from Westminster.
Scandalous

The NHS is not the worlds fifth biggest employer.

Will answer fully later

I wouldn't bother Jantra, I'll take the researched article by the BBC rather than your opinion thanks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17429786

Regardless, you have focused on an aside, my real point was does the NHS inflate our public sector employment figures when these are private services in other countries.

Millennium Stadium, Millennium Commission contribution £46 million

WMC, Millennium Commission contribution £31.7 million

@Bristol, Millennium Commission contribution £44.3 million

Cardiff LUZ* population 860,000

Bristol LUZ* population 1,000,000

*Large Urban Zones, as defined by the Eurostat service of the European Commission.

I think the Capitalised bit is just one of the concerns

Eric

i'm not so sure....as much as I'd love this sort of windfall to come to Wales, I was speaking to an industry expert who has said that fracking is not safe at all.

I'd say more research needs to be done to show it can be extracted safely. At no point should we compromise future generations quality of life so we can have a decent infrastructure.



Ci Snoop
Wales is 5% of the UK. Rail electrificiation will be undertaken on a 'biggest bang for buck' basis. That is - what will deliver payback in the shortest time. It follows the busiest most profitable routes were/will be electrified first. It goes back to what some in Wales/Cardiff perceive - the reality is that Cardiff really is a provincial city like Bournemouth - who are probably not on the electric network either.

Since Wales gets more benefits than every other part of the UK but pays less in tax receipts, surely the rest of the UK should 'wake up and smell the coffee, eat the kippers etc etc' and emand our benefits are reduced conmmensurate with what we put in.

also, Wales has a block grant. It is up to us how we spend it. We elect AMs to spend our money. We elect Welsh Labour. It is a proven fact that they prefer populist policies, waste, unproductive behaviour, ineffeciency and ineffective public sector. you get what you vote for.

If you want WG to spend the block grant on infrastructure, then you need to vote out the existing government and replace them with a more busiens friendly set of nincompoops.

as long as we have Welsh Labour then our block grant will be spent on largesse and pandering to the electorate rather than spending on long term infrastructure development.

mt bad, I read that article a while back and was leading on to the fact that the NHS is si fifth largest employer... for some reason I read your comment as the NHS being the worlds third largest employer. apologies.

[/quote=George]
Regardless, you have focused on an aside, my real point was does the NHS inflate our public sector employment figures when these are private services in other countries.[/quote]
you misunderstand what i meant by referring that I will comment later on...I meant in reference to Germany and not whether the NHS was first second or tenth biggest - as you say that was a side point.

Germany's healthcare delivery is undertaken by the private sector. however, it is funded (IIRC) 77% by the state and 23% by private insurance. it is free at the point of use, is single tier (unlike the UK which is two tier), has no waiting times, has more doctors and nurses per capita than the UK, each patient has their own room in hospital and so on.

The cost to the German taxpayer is also less per capita.

however, the real point is that the doctors, nurses and all that work in the German healtcare system are not classed as public sector workers. Even so, if they were the ratio of 1 to 8 becomes nearer 1 to 7, so we still have a long way to go to match the German level of productivity.

Jantra,

Infrastructure is not a devolved matter. As we are 5% of the U.K population, then we should expect 5% of the money available for infrastructure upgrades. This has not happened and we only have 1 motorway and no modern railway.

By calling things such as the Olympics, cross rail and HS2 a U.K rather than an England project, the Westminster Government has knowingly swindled the other Nations out of a Barnet rebate

That's bollocks

How so? Infrastructure is not a devolved issue hence why we have to petition the British Government for the funding. Give examples of modern infrastructure projects in Wales? After the M4 there's nothing, and that's clutching at straws to call the m4 modern

SP

Your responses epitomise everything I dislike about welsh politics. The re opening of the ebbw vale / cwl line, the widening of the m4 and so on are all seen as wg triumphs of devolution. Lack of attention elsewhere always reverts back to indifference by Westminster. To be welsh labour is a job from the gods. Success it's down to you and failure it's down to someone else.

How can you seriously blame a Government that has only had law making powers for not even a year for what has happened to Wales?

You cannot seriously negate Westminster's responsibility towards the Welsh people?

Your responses epitomise everything I dislike about welsh politics. The re opening of the ebbw vale / cwl line, the widening of the m4 and so on are all seen as wg triumphs of devolution. Lack of attention elsewhere always reverts back to indifference by Westminster. To be welsh labour is a job from the gods. Success it's down to you and failure it's down to someone else.[/quote]

I'm not welsh labour or uk copnservative, i'm indifferent, but who do you give credit to for anything. The ebbw line and the vog line are a success, an unmitigated success and driven and funded by the welsh government. Lets ridicule everything else fine, but why can't you say yep, those two projects have done ok?