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You guys are world beaters.
Mustrum what is with the random population figures.
What we want is 5% of the UK population -5% of the transport budget.
That is fair.
the at centre in Bristol was awarded 47 and two thirds of a million for a 104 million project.
The Millenium Stadium was awarded 46 million for a 141 million project.
At Bristol was awarded another two million for the Ec site.
The Millenium Centre was awarded 31 million for a 108 million project.
Why you distort these figures is strange?
just look on ther Millenoum Commision website.
WMC gets 31 million for a 108 million project
Bristol gets 47 million for a project which cost less.
Still this is about Rail but it look like we get less elsewhere
CiSnoop - be careful with what you are writing about the Millennium Commission contributions. They contributed to TWO massive projects in Cardiff, the sum of which dwarfs what Bristol got.
In the end, Cardiff did EXCEPTIONALLY well out of the Millennium Commission. TWO landmark buildings. That legacy punches head and shoulders above what Bristol (and other cities) were awarded.
On the politics front, I had to raise my eyebrows somewhat earlier today when cycling down Lloyd George Avenue.
In this age of relative apathy towards politics, I noticed that there are TEN election hoarding signs (the kind that are similar to the 'for sale' signs that you see estate agents placing in peoples front gardens) for the forthcoming Butetown council elections.
Each and every one (without a single exception) is a bright red and yellow Labour/LLafur sign, and each and every one is staked in the front garden outside each of the social housing plots on Lloyd George Avenue (the 2 short rows of terraces which flank either side of the Granary building in the middle).
Statistically speaking, it would be astonishing if every resident in two complete rows of housing were ALL ardent Labour supporters to the extent that they were keen to have election signs hammered into their front gardens.
Interesting....
If I remember correctly Labour had a placard placing scandal along with Plaid last year? Can one actually trust the placards that are being put in people's gardens these days?
wiki article on Welsh economy
I appreciate it is a wiki article, so you don't have to read it. however the figures it quotes have been cited from credible sources. It makes quite depressing reading. Howe anyone can suggest devolution or Welsh Labour have been good for Wales is beyond me. We have been falling steadily in terms of GVA and GDP since devoltion, whereas the English regions, with the exact same powers or less that NAW/WAg then WG have all faired better.
What is undeniable for the Nats is that the Welsh economy contributes £20bn or so to HMT but takes back £29bn or so. We rely on the English to subsidise us a further 50% of what we produce. Unbelievable.
Yet some are happy to criticise Westminster at every opportunity.
lets keep the red flag flying as we march to oblivion...
as Billy Bragg once said
we're making the world safe for capitalism...
Whats interesting about that wiki article is that the period 1989 - 1999 (pre devolution) saw the GDP figures drop 6 points compared to the UK average, whereas after devolution it has only dropped 3 points as compared to the UK average. One may deduce from those figures, if one wanted to put a spin on it, that if devolution has not taken place then we would have been a lot worse off.
What do they say about lies, damned lies and statistics etc etc
1989 = 85% of UK average
1997 = 80% (a drop of 5% in Uk average or 5.9% in real terms)
2008 = 74% (a drop of 6% in UK average or 7.5% in real terms)
1989 - 1997 = Conservative government with one major recession
1997 - 2008 = Labour government during a period os sustained economic growth
yet some think Labour do better for Wales. I would really like to understand the thought processes of those who think Labour do better for Wales than the Conservatives. All economic data points to the fact that we fall behind the rest of the UK at a greater rate when Labour are in power.
I suppose its to do with 'man of the people' Tony Blair and his £4m per annum salary leading Labour and not Thatcher.
PAVLOVS DOGS
Erm didn't you just say that economic policies take years before their effect is known. So couldn't you argue that the drop of 5% between 89 and 97 was down to the Tory government in the late 70's/early 80's and the drop of 6% between 1997 and 2008 was down to the government in the late 80s/early 90's which was, I think, Tory until 97?
Just saying, like. You can dress up stats howsoever they please you most. The real issue is that since 1989 Wales has progressively lost ground when compared to the UK average. Politics has a part to play but I think there are more important things to consider - the switch to a service based economy industry from a predominantly manufacturing economy? The huge growth of London and the south east which distorts the figures for all regions? The lack of decent sized urban area's in Wales which mitigates against agglomeration etc etc?
I'm not making excuses but the colour of the government in Westminster/Cardiff Bay or both is only one factor of many when considering Wales' economic performance. I don't know what the figures are before 1989 but I wouldn't be surprised to see Wales' economic performance steadily going downhill from the second world war onwards regardless of who is in No10.
Karl
I did say that and I stick by it. My second post was quite tongue in cheek - along the lines of if we ignore the reality that policies take years to have any real impact, it still shows Labour to be the party that accelerates Wales decline.
I agree with you, Wales has been left behind the rest of the UK no matter what colour of party is in power. With that in mind, can you explain why one party is hated to much more and another has to do no work to get elected? I would say it is a case of the majority of the Welsh not being very well versed in political analysis and as such we'll continually reap what we sow. We'll get the legislature we deserve and we'll continually slide backwards - do you not agree?
Jantra, we have not been left behind the rest of the UK. North-East England has performed similarly over the past 50 years as the decline of the coal and steel industries has hit its economy. I linked to this document:
http://www.oxfordeconomics.com/Free/pdfs/regcont.pdf
a few months back and it shows that Wales and NE England receive very similar levels of funding and contribute roughly similar amounts to HMRC. These levels of funding and contributions are for obvious structural reasons as these two areas are geographically peripheral within the UK and have relatively undiversified economies. The crappy economic performances are due to the changing world economy and to a lesser extent, Westminster. WG are really hardly to blame for this, any undergraduate social scientist could tell you that.
Here is a more recent version of the above doc:
http://www.isitfair.co.uk/Reports/Public/OE%20UKPublicFinance.pdf
This thread is about leccy rail and the fact remains that the North-East has had the investment of GNER being electrified PLUS the Tyne/Wear Metro (which has been upgraded and extended recently) although their population is half a million less than Wales. We have been SKANKED by westminster in the past when it comes to modernised rail, we need to play catch-up and that should be funded by the UK, considering that the UK is funding HS2 and has funded just about every rail project in England.
Here is a treat:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-250308
Download the file for NUTS1 regional gva and you can see that in 1997 Wales was just behind NE Eng in terms of gva per capita, by 2010 we had fallen a little bit further behind, I would argue that is to some extent because we have no electrified rail line to London,or modern Metro system, which certainly affects productivity and inward investment. QED
Looking at the table and doing some maths, Wales gva per head was 75.4% of England's in 1997 and was 72.2% in 2010. If you strip out London, SE England, SW England and the E of England, Wales GVA per head has increased by roughly the same proportion as the remaining half of England!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So maybe we aint the dunderheads that some people suggest we are?! We have out-performed the West Midlands! Jasper Carrott, Noddy Holder, Nigel Kennedy, Benny from Crossroads - your boys took one hell of a beating!
Is it possible to argue that the drop in Wales' share of GDP is because of growth elsewhere? As London and the South East have had astronomical growth whilst, as we have seen in Cardiff, it wasn't so much of a boom here in Wales. Could that explain why we seemed to be going into reverse even in the good times?
Electrification of the valleys lines a done deal according to David Cameron -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17619922
I quote - 'we are also going to be going ahead with the electrification of the valleys line. It's in black and white in the treasury documents. We've got some details to work out with the Welsh assembly government. We've got to determine the exact finance and all of the rest of it but be in no doubt this is something we want to do.'
This sounds very promising.
Mr appeasement
What you are saying is that since we have done as shit as NE england, everything is not as bad as I have suggested.
don't be a burk, we are falling further and further behind. The NE England is part of England and as such do not have a 'them and us' attitude towards the English that we do. What happens if the English decide that rather than subsidise the Welsh to £9bn per annum, they'll divert that to NE england where i) it is needed as much and (ii) they'll be more grateful for it than the moaning minnies over offahs dyke
Being joint last in the shit race is nothing to be proud of. In fact, iut just exacewrbate my point that we in Wales are totally devoid of what is needed. We need a collective good kick up the arse and realise that we are not going to get anywhere by always relying on England.
SP
sounds like more excuses. What you are saying is that it is ok because whilst we were pootling along, everywhere else was having stellar growth which in fairness creates an impression we are going backwards when the reality is the good ship Wales is bumping along, albeit not a quick as everywhere else.
the only issue I have with that is that it is bollocks.
Wales is falling further behind everyone, not just the Uk but the EU too. Are we too assume that Wales were outperformed by Malta, Greece, spain and any other region/country/area within the PIGS? I wouldn't have thought so
For fucks sake take a day off. Take an hour off. This is good news. If electrification hits the skids at some later date (for whatever reason) then it will be bad news.
What I glean from the quote is that Westminster and WG have been working closely and the business case has been accepted. The detail is now being discussed. That takes us much further forward than we were less than a year ago when it was a pie in the sky item on a civil servants wishlist. Thats good news Jantra,how can it be anything else?
Sometimes it seems as though you want everything to get ballsed up just so you can say you were right.
Karl
We have become used to promises aplenty on this forum...glass neeedle and so forth. the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Whilst it is welcome that we are at least talking about it, given Westminster are funding the GWL extension to Cardiff, do you really think that at the same time they'll stump up the finance for the Valleys electrification? I don't. it is that simple.
May elections are upon us, the Conservatives are looking to make inroads in the Valleys. It is hardly a co-incidence of the timing of this announcement. Can you remember the announcement from WG and CCC before last years elections about investing in Cardiff's CBD - has that happened yet? Have you heard anything about it as I haven't.
If the majority of funding is not forthcoming from Westminster, they I am absolutely convinced it will be mothballed as our WG masters have no stomach for making such long term decisions in our best interests (but to their own detriment).
apologies karl, but that is the way I see it. I'll happily be told I was wrong (and I'm sure many will take pleasure in doing so) if this goes ahead. I just can't see it so i'm not going to get excited about it
NB no, I don't take a day off, thats the proplem with this country, lack of productivity
If this Government electrifies the Rail inWales we will start to see the return of Tory MP's in the next elections.
Labour just simply did not deliver it, I doubt the Tories will, the Conservatives in Wales just do not lobby their own party masters in Westminster.
So, I've calculated the figures for GVA per head GROWTH, by region/devolved nation, between 1997 and 2010. These are from the OFFICE FOR NATIONAL STATISTICS data that I've linked to above, so it is IMPOSSIBLE to argue against them. These show how much our economy grew in Wales, compared to other parts of the UK, during that 13 or 14 year period. I will rank them and have the percentage growth over that period, in GVA per head, next to the name of the region, country. Here we go:
1. London 79.4%
2. Scotland 68.2%
3. SE England 64.4%
4. SW England 61.3%
5. NE England 60.7%
6. East of England 57.6%
7. NW England 56.9%
8. East Midlands 55.2%
9. Wales 55.0%
10. Northern Ireland 54.9%
11. Yorkshire & Humbs 50.9%
12. West Midlands 50.8%
Has anyone ever noticed if people in the West Midlands or Yorkshire are crap at business? And before anyone says any more negative stuff about Wales, we have performed just as well as the midlands and north of England during that period, and 23 million people live in England north of the line between the Wash and the Severn estuary. We are just as good at business and economics as the Northern half of England. FACT!
Once again if this Government electrifies the lines in Wales we will see the return of more Welsh Tory MP's.
Seats like Cardiff West, Cardiff North, Bridgend, Swansea West will all be targets.
We had years of labour and they did not deliver.
John Redwood singing the anthem will be just a memory.
Buisness in Wales will have a better chance to flourish.
perhaps if we put this into context it may help. what were the starting points? If Wales was a lot lower then it is easier to make signficant inroads.
notwithstanding that little point, you do not hear of the English bellyaching about their 'block' grant or about how successive Westminster governments have failed them and so on....you see the English will look after themselves....they don't complain about it anywhere near as much as we do.
Jantra,
If you have a look at regions such as Andalusia and Sicily you will find that Wales is in fact doing better than them. I'm not defending what has happened but statistics can be distorted to show what ever people want them to.
If you check the GDP of the European regions which I mentioned against that of Wales, you will find this.
There was also an article on Waleshome.org, which seems to have been shut down recently about where the extra £10 billion or so pounds come from, and in fact Wales gets back roughly what it puts in from everything. Not just taxes but also energy costs, the profits from the Crown estate, etc.
SP / Mr Appeasement
you've convinced me, there is nothing wrong with the economy of Wales. I am angry with myself for not spotting it first. What we need to do is compare Wales (a country) with poorly performing regions of our nearest neighbour England or poorly performing regions of two of the PIGS. There I was thinking better analysis would have been to compare the best performing region of Wales (Cardiff) with London and the worst performing (the Valleys) with NE England.
silly me, Wales is actually a powerhouse economy. All those new motorways, new schools, new hospitals that are being built alongside Cardiff continental's fourth runway to cope with all that inbound traffic.
All this time I've been living in a parallel Wales that has very little economic output whereas the reality as explained by erstwhile members of this forum is somewhat different. I feel silly now - thankfully both of you have woken me up from my nightmare.
It is now wonder England wish to keep hold of us if we contribute to central funds more than we take out. Who would have thought it - Wales the net contributor.
lets face it, Cardiff is way ahead of Bristol, call itself a city, it doesn't even have a light rail / tram network. Talk about no aspiration. Imagine as well that Bristol is not important enough to have any sort of public sector employment there to assist its economy, only being the second largest financial services city after London - its not a number one city like Cardiff. Bristol's pathetic excuse of an airport can only manage 6m pax per annum compared ot Cardiff Continental thats nish. how do they cope. We in Cardiff also have a much better standard of living...this is explained by the very high cost of living in Bristol - there must be a high cost of living - how else would you explain average earnings being about 30% more in Bristol than in Cardiff? It is clear that Bristol is nothing next to Cardiff, its not a capital and doesn't even have a tram. its not even in the top five cities in England. no comparison
Jantra, our economy in Wales has grown at a similar rate since devolution as England's economy has, excluding London and the South East. At a spookily similar rate.
What can you infer from the above information? Do you think that Cardiff, which in 1990 was an insignificant provincial UK city and a depressed former coal port, should be on a par with London, which is one of two Alpha++ World cities?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city#section_2
If so I suggest that you lay off the magic mushrooms, step away from the crack pipe, flush your skunk down the bog and tip your whisky down the drain.
Addendum
Or maybe move to your beloved ENGLAND!
the Welsh economy has not grown at the same rate as the rest of England's. that is just untrue.
Wales is on a part with the worst performing regions of England. That is a fact.
The reason I said compare Cardiff:London and Valleys:NE England is because that would be a like for like comparison. You cannot pick and choose the comparator to suit: either Wales is a region of England (then you'll agree WG/NAW is not needed) or Wales is not a region but a country in its own right and therefore you need to compare the countries as a whole or the regions within those countries, but not country versus region.
Do you think Cardiff has performed better than Bristol since devolution? I don't.
These figures are a simple average of the regional.growth figures I showed above. They aren't weighted to take account of the different populations of the English regions. The average growth rate of the seven English regions (excluding london and se) was 56.2%. The growth rate of the five northern regions (this time excluding the east and sw) was 54.9%. Wales, remember was 55%. Basically Jantra, if you exclude the massively distorting London and South East (one of the richest, if not the richest area in the world for the past 400 years), our growth rate in Wales has been almost exactly the same as the parts of the world to which we are most similar and hence best compared to: the rest of England! Your assertions ad nauseam that we are failing here do not stack up when analysed using the most basic official data. I can't download the final table that compares Nuts3 regions, so I can't answer your question about Bristol v Cardiff. But we all know that Bristol is wealthier than Cardiff. I know that I'd rather live here, though. Furthermore London has a great deal of control over it's own and many other cities' economic performance; London has more control over Cardiff's economy than Cardiff does over its own.
so in a nutshell, we are reliant on England, specifically London, for our £9bn per annum subsidy.
other than that, you are correct, Wales is great and its the nearest thing to utopia. why was I ever worried
Jantra, you seemed more positive about your hometown on a previous Bristol vs Cardiff thread, admittedly this was few years ago now but your opinion has clearly changed somewhat
Your previous comments are as follows and please note your final paragraph which states that Bristol has indeed had a considerable head start over Cardiff:
Originally posted by Jantra :
"I'm Cardiff born and bred and I'm very proud of my city (sometimes too proud). However I do think you do Bristol a dis-service. Yes it's city centre is a bit of a mish mash but then that's what gives centres their unique charm. It is derelict in places but in others, such as Temple Quarter and Bristol Harbour, it is vey modern.
Bristol does attract a lot of private investment from major FS blue chips, whereas Cardiff tends to get public sector funding and investment. Cardiff needs to address this problem to catch up.
Yes Cardiff is growing at a much greater rate than Bristol in terms of population, but does this transfer into GVA??? Cambo Dai over to you?
Retail Bristol is ok, however most worzels I speak to readily admit Cardiff is much better for shopping. Cardiff's retail offering will be on a par with an area similar in size to M/cr, B/ham and Glasgow once SD2 is completed. I'd go so far to say that 60-70% of the city centre blueprint will be retail or commerce in one way or another. In this resepct its a lot livlier...
yes we have the castle(s), all our museums, Cathays Park, Bute Park, the Bay and all its idiosyncratic developments (which give it its own uniqueness) plus a whole lot more.....
and our football team is better than their two combined
We have St Mary Street on a night out, which to some can be daunting, others actually beleive it makes Cardiff a bit like Ibiza...no other UK city centre has a strip of city centre road just like it....
all in all Cardiff is a great place to live and work, we just don't realise it, but then again, I imagine so is Bristol. Both have their plusses and minuses....
I do concur that they do have alevel of arrogance about them in Bristol, certainely in the FS sector. They do beleive they are a centre of importance on a par with say Edinburgh, Leeds or M/cr. The fact is Bristol has had a headstart over Cardiff (it was the 2nd largest city in the Uk at one point) and as such national and internationals tend to locate their Wales and West regional offices their rather than here. This may change in the future...."
you are correct, everything is rosy in the garden. Welsh Labour make it sunny every day and Wales really is the land of milk and honey.
you fail to include Wales only has 1 in 3 working in its public sector without which we'd be a lot worse off. We have a poor productive sector, we are not comparable with any English region and to attempt to look for similarities would indicate you just don't want to see the problem.
I'd like nothing more than for Wales to be self sufficient. However, I see very little which would indicate we have the political class or the correct business culture to do anything significant that could ever temper that reliance.
you obviously think differently.
I'm off to M/cr this weekend, I have my eye on a practice in Ashton. I might be looking at buying. If I do then I'll have options regarding my (and more importantly my sons) future. I doubt it will be in Wales
european gdp by region
Wales is the 4th group of 5. London is in the top group, the rest of England is either in groups 2 or 3. Cornwall, like Wales, is on a par with former soviet bloc economic powerhouses latvia, estonia and lithuania
Jantra,
As much as it hurts me to admit it, Wales isn't an official Country. We like England, Scotland, Cataluna, Sicily ect are regions of bigger countries.
And in any case, that map appears to be based on local authority areas which indicate that Cardiff / Newport and the mid- to East of Wales are in the same category as many areas of England and better than several. Let's not misrepresent the evidence, eh?
CARDIFFWALESMAP
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