After seeing the total lack of a means of providing such to the bearings, I posted a question on the Model Engineering Forum concerning that fact, and it has generated an interesting response that I hope will be of interest to others.

I posed the question on that Forum, not as a snub to all who use this Forum, but as a means to get thoughts from those unassociated with 'Ours'.

Geoff - iOS9 Can you tell how I feel about this release?

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk

Hello Geoff, I am one of those persons who is associated with both and I found that the ME answers were very interesting.
Personally, I would not modify the original design much, maybe add a couple of grease nipples and use a modern grease but otherwise, it has worked for 80 years or so it cannot be that bad.
I can see that you are less than impressed with Apple, hope you get it sorted soon and get back to your car.

Location: Near M1 Jtn 28

Geoff,
father and I modified the cross shaft on our RN saloon 25 years ago. The car has done 70,000 miles since and the only adjustment needed has been with the two wing nuts as Herbert intended. We then did the same to the RP with a similar cross shaft to yours and also my reproduction Ulster.
All cars brake exceedingly well. A friend even modified his in the same manner back from hydraulics.

The spherical bearings in the chassis were designed to allow for discrepancies when they were riveted.

So this is what is done :- the spherical bearings are filled up with Araldite and all aligned with the shaft fitted along with new brass bushes pushed in.
When the Araldite has cured, stick the new bushes in, again with Araldite this time oiling the shaft so it doesn't stick.
Next drill four 1/16" holes in each end of the shaft where the journal is and four 3/32" holes for the centre bearing.
Place a piece of nylon rod inside the shaft to fill up some of the space, or in your case a piece from each end.
Then plug each end with a steel insert drilled for a grease nipple.
Assemble shaft and lubricate with a grease gun from each end.
The photos below show the cross shaft for my latest project, note this is a earlier coupled brake cross shaft.

Location: Deepest darkest Kent.

Nice, I like the thinking Robert, the Araldite may not be entirely necessary on a unit with the carriers in good order

Location: NZ

Thanks Ian,
the Araldite takes up any play in the spherical bearings and holds them in line. The brass bushes are also Araldited because they are a slip fit.
With the RN it is still on the same soft linings after 70,000
miles.

Location: Deepest darkest Kent.

Robert,
Thanks for details of your modification.
It's been well thought out and best of all, easy to do!
Have the brass bushes been machined from the solid?
Wonder if I can use the existing zinc ones, as they are really tight in the bearings.
How are the tube end inserts prevented from popping out, due to grease gun pressure?

Brian,
I made the cardinal sin of 'updating' before reading the feedback on the Apple Forums. STUPID STUPID STUPID!

Geoff - Top of chassis painted.

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk

Geoff,
the bushes are from one of our cherished suppliers. The zinc ones are made out of strip,to remove them note the split on the flange and drive either side inwards. Then you can wind them up and remove them.
On the earlier cross shaft one end is already plugged so just needs drilling and tapping for a nipple.
The other end or both ends in your case make up a plug with a few thou clearance and stick it in with Loctite. You may need to bore the tube to clean first.
Our friend who converted one of his cars back from hydraulics said that when tested on the rolling road for the MOT both the hydraulically braked car and the cable braked car gave the same readings.

Location: Deepest darkest Kent.

I know not germane to the discussion but I am fascinated to hear someone complain about an Apple Computer update after all these years of most Apple users telling me how much better it is than a poor old PC.

Sorry for the digression - Tony.

Tony,
I switched from MS to Apple in 2008 following my experience with a 2007/8 iPod.

Computer updates have been a pleasure, BUT iOS9 has locked me out of connecting to my MacBook as I cannot install the latest iTunes, so has to all intense and purpose lost all my backups and that includes cancer treatment details.

I wrote to Tim Cook in desperatation but got the usual 'cannot downgrade' bulls1t from their techie who phoned me.
I'm going to have one more try then it will be a YouTube video of me venting my spleen at Cook and Ive, who has taken over software development.

iOS9 still hasn't been fixed even after two updates, and I'm ****ed if I will install the 9.1 update just released and find more things broken.
Rant over, for now that is

Geoff - Now everyone knows.

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk

Thanks Robert.
One more question:
I thought that the spherical bearings where meant to accomodate chassis twist?
The centre and OS ones on mine are free to move, so not good?

Geoff - Still learning about Seven behaviour

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk

They should be stiff enough so as not to rotate as the shaft rotates, but not to stiff that they do not accommodate the chassis flex.

If they are loose, find a pair of socket that just fits over the ball part bearing onto the pressed bit of steel on each side (the carrier). Either squeeze with a vice or use a hammer to tighten up.

Personally I always take these off, split them and start from scratch. I bore the centres out and fit a new properly turned bush. Last one I did in Nylon.

when the whole thing is assembled, you should aim that the return spring will return the shaft to the rest state after you have rotated it with the brake pedal, or handbrake. This takes a bit of doing.

In terms of lubrication, all I do is weld the ends of the shaft up, and fit a nipple in each end, then make a small hole at each bearing. Once the shaft is full of grease, theoretically it should lub the bearings, however logic would dictate that the grease will come out of the easiest route, so probably one or the other, but not both (or indeed three). Not ideal, but I've never had trouble with a shaft after being through it.

With respect to the later shaft with the external sleeve. With both levers on the sleeved end you can tell if they are rusted solid by using a tyre lever between both, you should be able to see some movement. If not put the whole lot in a roaring fire, and when cooled belt the outer gently with a hammer against something hard, moving about here and there. Drilling out the pin is 100% ball ache.

With regards what difference the sleeve makes? My RL does not have it, just a simple shaft with a lever at each end and in the middle. If I set the rear brakes even on light braking on the pedal, when I have to stop in a hurry the car is pulled into oncoming traffic (but pulls up squareish on the handbrake). If I set them to pull up square under heavy foot braking, it pulls to the nearside under light braking, and worse on the handbrake. This is all due to the shaft twisting. I set them up to the latter method.

Fathers RP with the sleeve can be set up easily so that it doesn't pull either way, on both the foot or handbrake.

I have dramatically improved the footbrake on my 1929 RK saloon by modifying the way the cross shaft is braced.
It is very instructive to look underneath while someone else presses the brake pedal hard. The offside of the shaft moves forward and the nearside of the shaft back in reaction to the braking forces.
The shaft bearings offer very little resistance to fore and aft movement but are very sturdy in the vertical plane which only takes the weight of the shaft.

At the offside end I've simply drilled a hole on the chassis cross-member directly in front of the shaft bearing and fitted a bolt (3/8 BSF) so that the head presses against the bearing. This reduces the forward movement at that end.
The other end is a bit more complicated. As an interim solution (Bodge?) I've modified an exhaust pipe 'U' clamp to be a close fit round the shaft. The threaded portion then goes into a heavy steel plate which has a 5/16 BSF thread tapped in the centre. A hole is then drilled through the cross-member and a stud passed through into the plate. It's locked both ends with nuts. This prevents the shaft moving back under braking. The whole thing is liberally coated with grease.

It works, there is no need for the compromise adjustment of the brakes whereby the N/S comes on first and the O/S later causing the brakes to pull first one way then the other as the pedal pressure increases. I have a small dash-mounted Tapley meter and it is easy the get the first reading which is 35%, about all one can expect from back brakes only.
I bedded it in on the 350 mile Borders Raid. Every time we stopped I felt the temperature of the back brakes and altered the bias until they were about the same temperature.
The next step is to use a third cross-shaft bearing in a housing bolted to the cross-member in place of the 'prototype'.

Location: Melrose, Roxburghshire

Geoff,
all the cars that we have done have had the bushes Araldited up solid with no ill effects whatsoever.
The four holes drilled in each journal lubricate the whole of the bush as the shaft only rotates a small amount. Note the two different sizes.
When it is greased from each end you can see the grease come out of each bush on both sides, this also stops water ingress.

Location: Deepest darkest Kent.

You could probably also arrange things such that lubrication gets forced between the inner and outer tube of the shaft.

Location: NZ

But how do you get the grease to come out into the middle bearing?

Jim,

In the 50's I fitted the bolt between the cross member and the off side bearing bracket as yours, but for the near side I made a little 45 degree angled strut between the bracket and the chassis. From memory around 4" long bolted at the chassis with a twist and the other end concave to fit the bearing. Seemed to work.

Tony.

Hedd,
1/16" holes at each end and 3/32" in the middle, grease from each end an et voila!

Location: Deepest darkest Kent.

Tony,
L.M. Williams in his book Austin Seven Specials, page 104, suggests a similar mod to yours, except he says weld a strip of steel to underside of bearing carrier and bolting t'other end to the chassis, but doesn't say on which side of bearing housing.

Thanks again to all for their input!

Geoff - Hope this thread helps others as it has me.

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk

Tony Betts sells solid cross shafts for the uncoupled brakes.
It would be easy to modify these for lubricating the bearings. Drill a hole in from each end as far as the centre of the bearings and tap 5/16 BSF for a grease nipple. Then two cross drillings at 90º to each other within the bearings.

Location: Melrose, Roxburghshire

Hi Ruairidh

Re the red chassis, with the kinks so far separated from the attachment points, the straps would seem to contribute little.
I presume it is a mod. If rivetted would suggest long ago.
Was it to assist a trials car over obstacles?

Bob Culver

Location: Auckland, NZ

Hi Ruairidh,

Does the photo below illustrate the type of thing you had in mind. The tube is fitted to a 1928 chassis of mine but only on one side in an effort to stop the uncoupled cross shaft bracket moving under braking loads.



This chassis has had a number of mods made to it including welding strips on the inside of the chassis rails for most of their length.

Cheers

Marcus

Ian,
I have been mulling over the following two possible approaches:

1) Drill right through then plug the outer hole, thus getting grease from the nipples added to the ends of the shaft,

2) Drill the outer tube only and fit a nipple.
Not sure, however, of practicality due to thickness of tube to take a thread, and the gap between the tubes is only a b*** hair at best.


Geoff - Paint dry, so ready to do mods to prevent the shaft moving horizontally.

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk

Marcus,

Missed your post - apologies.

It is different looking but a similar principle.

There is at the thickness of the zinc shim between the tubes, I have one somewhere that a previous owner "dismantled" ,I can search it out and photograph if you like.

Location: NZ

Thanks Ian, much appreciated.

❗️ wind❗️

Geoff - Photos when it's light.

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk

Another decision made.
Will do what Robert did for lubrication, it being the easiest - thanks.

One last question please:
Are my bearing housings strong enough to resist twist, or should I beef them up with suitable bracing?

Geoff - Cheese sarnie next.

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk

Hi Geoff, here are the pictures, I have photographed an inner shaft which has been removed next to an assembled unit. You can see the plug welds and the location pin on the dismantled shaft, and I have highlighted them on the complete one. There is a machined step of 35 thou on the inner shaft to allow for clearance, and for the zinc bearing to go in the end of the outer shaft. It is possible to dismantle these cross shafts by VERY carefully drilling out the plug welds and driving out the pin, be warned though it is also very easy to stuff them up, as a previous owner of the dismantled shaft will attest.

Location: NZ

Ian,
Thanks for the interesting photos.

Will post how I get on as and when.

Geoff - Too cold to work in the Carport, wimp I am

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk

Hi Bob. I have a '32 box saloon, and am attempting to remove the brake crosshaft to replace the bushes and a broken return spring. Any idea how the shaft is released on the passenger side, it turns and also moves a quarter of an inch sideways but can't be slid sideways . Is there a circlip retaining it ,do you know, please? Y ou seem genned up on crosshafts.
Mike

Location: nantwich, cheshire

Hi Mike

Assuming by Bob you meant me.

As stated in the other post it is (the?) one component I have not had apart. Until a few years ago the constructionn of mine was entirely hidden in caked goo. All the bolts seemed immoveable and I did not fancy a week of work on my back so left alone!

Ian, Robert, or Hedd are your men.

If the tubes are seized I would be wary of a lot of heat. 2 cwt on the pedal is not unusual and it has about a 7:1 leverage. The shafts have to stand a fair torque; important do not lose their springiness.

From Ians photos the locating pin seems somewaht superfluos and a weakness, and the second one ditto.

As about the only published picture of the early somewhatv obscure concentric shaft version the photos should ideally be repeated under the other related post.

Bob Culver

Location: Auckland, NZ

Having re-bushed the cross shaft on my RP about 30 years ago it's not a job I'd want to tackle again if I can avoid it. What I have done is use motor cycle drive chain grease. It is an aerosol based product I used in my trialling days and is intended for use on bikes that don't have 'O' ring chains. When sprayed on the chain the carrier fluid is a very thin foam which enables the dissolved grease to get into all the nooks and crannies in the rollers. The carrier then evaporates leaving the chain fully lubricated. Such a product would be ideal for an application such as the brake cross shaft bushes.
Just a thought.

Not pricey either: HERE (for example)

Location: Gard, France 30960

Hello Mike,
as Bob couldn't answer your question, I presume you were referring to me.
The nearside arm should be held on with a cotter.
Remove this and you should be able to take off the arm. Next remove the cotter where the front brake drop arm is and also the retaining screw for the return spring, then you can withdraw the shaft.
Note, it is almost impossible to do the above without removing the body.
Hope this helps,
Robert.

Location: Deepest darkest Kent.

Photos for reference only and more on Photobucket







Still applying PlusGas to see if I can free the tubes.
Since heating the outer tube, the PlusGas disappears between the two pretty smartly, so I live in hope.

Geoff - Another go at painting the chassis today.

Location: South Norfolk - Next to Suffolk