Ref a Government petition, would somebody like to come up with appropriate wording?
All I can come up with at the moment is -slightly re-worded :-

''We request the Government to direct the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) to treat the registering of Historic vehicles originally built with a separate chassis (ie non unitary construction / non monocoque)and subsequently fitted with replacement bodywork due to irretrievable loss or damage of the original bodywork, on an equal basis to vehicles still retaining the original bodywork when issuing or reissuing age related registration numbers, thereby recognizing and confirming the re-registered vehicles historic status.''

Please feel free to offer alternative wording - don't see much in the way of maybe's above?
-not totally convinced on Change.org - but am having a look.
Q:showing my ignorance here but:- how does the Government know you've put a petition on Change.Org.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Sorry Steve, I meant that there are too many ‘maybe’s’ in the government’s petition site.
I'm probably a little sceptical but, if you start a petition on a government run site, who is controlling it?

And not to pour cold water on your idea, after thinking about starting one myself, I considered the following:

1. In 2009 there were approximately 178,000 registered classic and historic vehicles in the UK.

2. In 2009 approximately 68,000 were presented for an MoT test.

3. In response to the government’s consultation on the lifting of the requirement for pre-1960 vehicles to be tested, there were 447 responses (0.66% of those presented, 0.25% of the total!).

I realise that some of these responses were collective but I would consider the show of hands pathetic considering that it was clearly an act of blatant chicanery (the removal of officially sanctioned roadworthiness) paving the way for the sort of problems we’re experiencing at the moment.

In other words, I concluded that I couldn’t rely on the support of enough people to get a petition off the ground. Apathy and the fact that most people wouldn’t put their heads above the parapet or say boo to a goose, are our biggest enemies and we hand these most effective weapons to the DVLA on a plate.
I think there’s no substitute for our individual efforts and that’s why I continue to write letters to people who I hope can make a difference if pushed hard enough.
As I say, I may be completely wrong.

Sir Greg Knight’s closing sentence in his last reply was ‘I’m doing what I can!’ The exclamation mark suggests that I’m hitting the spot :)
Good. But not yet good enough.

Steve

I have a few concerns about how such a petition might be interpreted later on (assuming successful number of signatories!).

Mainly that "due to irretrievable loss or damage of the original bodywork" could place a burden on the applicant that the body was beyond economical repair. The owner of a barn find car missing a body altogether would struggle to prove that the body was not simply removed for the purpose of building a replica sports.

Secondly "equal basis" is concerning because this may still cause problems for special builders. Even if the body were permitted as a replica, the rest of the components are from a number of different cars and would still fall into the kit car section of the rules.

I would like to see an extension of the existing rules. Replacement bodies are already permitted from the original manufacturer. If this were extended to "marque experts" then those professionals such as Roach, Yates, etc... would be able to supply bodies for replacement purposes.

The problem with my proposal is that the home special builder doesn't really meet the requirements for a marque expert - and worse, what if there is no expert for your make of car.

I'm not sure that there is a way of satisfying everybody.

Peter

Is not the special builder, be they professional or home, part of the culture of the Austin 7 that has is existed since the very early days and certainly more than 40 years? I thought the historic vehicle movement was all about protecting the living culture, which includes the special, of historical vehicles and allowing them to continue to be maintained and driven on public roads not withstanding the modern regulations that might exclude them if applied.

If individuals are to lobby then who do they direct their representations to? Just who are the key stakeholders, how can they be contacted, and what are their objectives and how can they be influenced?

I am not a special builder just a RP owner who wants to be able to continue driving on the roads without undue restriction, but I also do think the special side of A7s is worth sticking up for.

Location: NE Peak Corner

Thank you gentlemen,
It just goes to show that 'getting it right' is crucial and what is stated and how it is phrased is of great import.
I wouldn't want for example to disenfranchise those who create their own bodywork which is part of the great british tradition of special building.

A friend of mine Ernie Randall who is now sadly too old to actively take part, was building his own bodies from the early 1950's through to the mid to late 1990's.
They were all 2 seaters as far as I can recall, none were highly tuned as his enjoyment was rebuilding standard mechanics with the creative element of thinking up and building the body.

He said to me a good few years ago, ''I think I've had the best days of the old car world''.

Reluctantly I feel he may be right but I sincerely hope we haven't seen the end of them.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Does any one remember the Dave Gorman show, he did a piece on government petitions and it would appear that they are vetted before being presented and are not guaranteed in any way to get approval.

As it seems the FBHVC are the only people to whom the DVLA will listen too should we not be telling them exactly what clubs expect from them, and get them to present a case that will cover all angles. If the organisation that is supposed to represent us does not work for us, then its time to get a new one that will.

Location: Pembrokeshire

David,

I've directed all my correspondence to Sir Greg Knight, Chairman of the All Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Group. Both he and the FBHVC's representatives meet with the relevant Ministers from time to time.

As you demonstrate, we're all stakeholders in this regardless of our views on Special building.

Our objective generally might be to rein in the DVLA's enthusiasm for changing the rules to suit its straitened circumstances.

My more specific objective is to have reinstated the 8-point system as was applied to my Special in 2009 in which the nature and construction of its new body was considered irrelevant for the retention of its identity.

Phil,

I couldn't agree more.

I'm totally with you on that Nigel.
It would be a major step back to normality.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Nigel thanks, I was more thinking about what were the objectives of the "other" side. If one of the objectives of the DVLA is to live within a reduced budget, not unreasonable, then the A7 community needs to help them find alternative ways of doing this without compromising the ability to register or re-register historic vehicles. Unfortunately abuses in the past, not A7s in the main part, have, in the eyes of the DVLA and the general public, made this more difficult to achieve through a certification system relying on the various clubs.

Location: NE Peak Corner

As someone who is trying to rebuild/restore a 1925 car
This topic is causing a great deal of uncertainty to the Aysti 7
Community . The re-invention of Austin Sevens has been as much a part of the heritage
left by Herbert, for example all the period coach builders and the all the "special" builders
Who kept so many of these cars on the road, often on a budget in the 1950's and 60's for us and the general public to enjoy now.

How can folk who are restoring ancient buses and trucks, all with their coach built bodies,
Cope with any new draconian regime. So if you make a cab from scratch, then you cannot get a V5C.

In period many coach built cars had their bodies exchanged
Given that A7 bodies cost only £7? New at the factory And many Rolls Royce cars
Were regularly given new bodies in the 1930's and 40's.

Anyone know how the Commercisl Clubs view this Saga?

Regards

Bill

Location: Scottish Borders

I agree Bill, At one time Rolls Royce only sold a rolling chassis, so there is no defined type of body for them, as with many commercial vehicles, in fact many company's made rolling chassis available to coachbuilders. The only important part of a vehicle like this is the driving chassis, that is the bit that is drivable and the part that is registered. If we take a newly made body and stick a box section chassis under it and fit a draw bar is not a motor car its trailer put it on an original chassis and it a motor vehicle and subject to all the relevant laws that go with it.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Stephen Voller
Dec 13, 2015 - 2:43PM
Quote Reply Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all
Is your friend trying to get the cars original number officially reissued to his vehicle or trying to get a new age related number allocated ?
Certainly seems to be a lengthy process, I dread to think how many vehicles currently involved and that's without those of us still waiting to register.
Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

My friend just received a letter from DVLA requesting him to make an appointment with SGS for the car to be examined.
A good start I think. but took a year to get this letter.
Liam

Location: East Sussex

Hopefully things will progress more quickly now Liam.
Sure am glad you friend wasn't holding his breath!

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

not at all he bought a spare V5 just in case.
The DVLA reference is : Kits and Rebuilds

Location: East Sussex

Perhaps an update, such as it is, is required.
The latest FBHVC News carries an article on Registration Matters. Firstly it would appear that the DVLA negotiator moved on and it took some time to establish with whom to deal with (!)
As we know the major issue concerns bodies on vehicles with a chassis. The DVLA has on numerous occasions rejected applications on the basis of the body not being original or consistent with the original body style - often based on the body style described in the old VE60 logbooks. The DVLA's own publication, viz INF 26 and V765/3 appear to preclude that bodies on chassis should be considered in the case of a genuine vehicle. However the DVLA continue to maintain that local authorities always had considered bodies in the past and thus would continue to do so.
Much research has unearthed a Ministry of Transport document regarding licensing, taxation and registration which clearly states that the chassis constitutes the vehicle and that it not only forms the frame but both of the axles, gears, steering and transmission. A change of body by itself does not constitute a change in identity.
A further search appears to show that this policy remains unchanged.
Thus this information has been conveyed to the DVLA in a Policy Paper and a response is awaited.

Chris Garner, VC- A7CA

Location: Melton Mowbray

At first reading this would seem to be a step in the right direction. Let's hope that common sense prevails in the face of red tape.

THIS MORNING THE INSPECTOR ON BEHALF OF DVLA CAME TO INSPECT THE AUSTIN 7. HE CHECKED ALL AROUND AND TOOK NOTE OF THE CHASSIS AND ENGINE NUMBERS AND TOOK SOME PHOTOS. IN ALL 20 MINUTES.
HOPEFULLY THAT WILL SETTLE THE MATTER.

Location: East Sussex

So it's taken nearly seven months for the inspection to happen? Unbelieveable!

Let's hope a suitable V5C arrives within the next few days, as it did for the case of the Renault Dauphine that I mentioned last year.

At this rate I will be in my woodland wicker casket before any progress is made on registering my special.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Sadly I was not able to retain the number from my 1925 barn find trials special unearthed after a 40 year slumber, despite sending DVLA both a 40 year old, MOT and Tax Disc, receipt of Reg file transfer from "home" authority to the final one . Plus I had the usual dating letter and inspection report from the local club.

Despite all this a a full set of photos DVLA reject my application to retain the 1925 reg number and sent all my documentation back.

When I phoned to discuss the situation the official was as helpful as they could be but said they were "powerless"
As they had a strict protocol to follow and as I had not proved a direct link between the chassis no and the registration no they had to decline my application for a V5. However the official said I had enough evidence to get an age related number, which after about two months they finally issued one , in the correct format 2 letters 4 digits.

Always try to get a personal contact at DVLA in the K& R section ( there are 14 of them!) being able to phone enabled me to negotiate this maze caused by the Govt cutting civil service jobs in LOcal licensing offices

Now need to complete the Cup Rep body and change the colour!

Happy motoring!

Having a set of original Chummy wings and a 50 year old rough trials body possibly helped , but not to retain its own number even though I had loads of data but not the crucial logbook or Licensing Office records many of which were destroyed across the country.

I must try and research the age related no!

Regards

Bill

Location: Scottish Border

After a month he received a letter from DVLA

FURTHER TO THE INSPECTION OF YOUR VEHICLE, I AM CONSIDERING YOUR CASE AND WILL SEND YOU A FULL REPLY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Really Scandalous, Does not look very good

Location: East Sussex

Has your friend been in touch with the FBHVC? - if not he should - they keep saying they need examples of whats going on.

Location: Kent

Please don't throw things at me, but having been involved in the whole process several times myself and also taking an interest in genuine cars, I really feel for the DVLA bods because the lengths some of the fakers have gone to, in order to create desirable vintage and post vintage cars is extraordinary.

What's more, a lot of them have got away with it. There are heaven knows how many Riley Imps, Brooklands, MPH's that all started out as perfectly restorable saloons, but have now inherited some sort of "history"...the same goes for whole range of other cars including six cylinder MGs, Singer LeMans, Wolseley Hornets, Bentleys and Bugattis, where there are more around now than were actually built in the first place!

Sadly the big money cars are being used to shift large amounts of money around the globe by rich businessmen and investors, which means a) the real thing is out of a lot of people's reach now and b)Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs has tightened up the rules to the point that the DVLA are looking very, very closely at every application, virtually regardless of the value of the car, knowing that a correct registration considerably adds to the value of the vehicle, particularly where "history" is concerned...did you know Tazio Nuvolari raced my Box saloon?

I really feel for the owners of specials like Hamblins and Speedex who are trying to retain a bit of history to their cars, even though they were built in the 50's and 60's and if you are building a special today, you really do have to have all your ducks in a row.

The FBHVC is a hopeless case they only provide lip service and are not really interested in fighting DVLA. They wrote few articles about it and met with officials from DVLA when it all started but we never heard from them on this subject for a very long time.

Location: East Sussex

Perhaps you should read their newsletters! Bob Owen's report in their most recent (2016 Issue 3) explains some of the difficulties they have been having with their negotiations with the DVLA. Whilst I agree that the FBHVC may have been slow to appreciate our problems, there's not much they can do when the DVLA keeps changing their negotiators.

Another route to try to make progress with this business could be to write to the following:-
The Rt Hon Sir Greg Knight MP,
House of Commons,
London,SW1AOAA.
He is the Chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group.

,

Location: Sheffield

A record breaking 355000 car registration "private numbers" issued by the DVLA this year according to recent media reports. Has this any bearing on the sluggish progress of allowing age-related plates for old vehicles? There will not be any age related plates left soon.Plenty pennies earned by DVLA flogging "private numbers" and no money to be earned by them sorting out age-related.
Could this be the DVLA's hidden agenda or am I just a cynical old......?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

I don't think that there's any risk of the supply of age-related registrations.

Many authorities issued few, if any, four-digit, two-letter or three-digit, three letter registrations.

I rather fancy making a pair - the current rebuild project having 4985 VJ, alongside VJ 4985 on my existing RP would look quite cool!

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E" not a "T".

Only in as much as that's where the money is, so that's presumably where the resource goes. Old cars cost DVLA resource with zero income.

No representation without taxation perhaps?

C

Sir Philip Greed seems to have done ok by having quite a large amount of influence on the UK and his UK ex employees without contributing much into HM's coffers. I have a cold so I can't do "n's"
Sorry, just a miserable old.......
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

DVLA GAVE IT AN AGE RELATED NUMBER THEN CANCEL IT 2 YEARS LATER SAYING IT NEED TO HAVE A Q NUMBER.

Austin 8 open top tourer.. rebuilt and drives well For Sale (1946)£3500 OR OFFER

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C783930
This vehicle is a real eye catcher and a fun car in good running order. Built from a 1946 year four door saloon using all the original chassis,engine,gearbox,steering box and axles. DVLA originally gave it an age related plate as it was registered for two years as a tourer, now they have decided that it should be a Q plate. Converted to 12 volt with an old fashioned type claxon fitted. Old tax discs and correspondence plus spares included in the sale....Quick sale, Space required.

Location: Eaqst Sussex

I wonder what triggered the DVLA to re-classify this vehicle?

I rather assumed that once you were on the road and registered, that was the end of it.

Simon

Location: On a hill in Wiltshire

[quote="Slack Alice" Simon]I wonder what triggered the DVLA to re-classify this vehicle?

I rather assumed that once you were on the road and registered, that was the end of it.

Simon[/quote]

That's what the Bugatti people thought!

Location: Derby

That's what the Bugatti people thought! [/quote]

Bugatti people make a very small percentage of the DVLA clamp down, They have a lot of Classic 60' and 70' to deal with.

Location: East Sussex

[quote="Slack Alice" Simon]I wonder what triggered the DVLA to re-classify this vehicle?

I rather assumed that once you were on the road and registered, that was the end of it.

Simon[/quote]

Seems that most cars that have their V5C cancelled as a result of the owner wanting to sell the registration. Wanting to do this triggers an inspection of the car, anything not quite right 8 points wise means that not only can you not transfer the plate, but that you lose the right to the existing registration too.

If that was the case with this car, the inspector may have judged that the Austin Eight is a monocoque vehicle, so cutting the roof off means it has a modified chassis which equals a Q plate -usually only granted after passing a BIVA test.

Location: N W Kent

But if the DVLA had issued an age-related number two years ago, this would have been done on a non-transferable basis ...

I have heard this stated before, and it may be DVLA policy. However, I have two cars with age related plates, nothing on either V5C saying that the registrations are non-transferable.

Location: N W Kent

Interesting ... Perhaps yours have somehow slipped the net! Over the years I have had numerous cars with re-issued age-related numbers - a quick count makes it eight, but I think I have missed a couple! - and they have all been issued on a non-transferable basis(the earliest I can recall dates back to the mid-1980s). So perhaps this Austin Eight may have also slipped through with a transferable number, in which case the owner should have left well alone ...

Like a few other Austin owners trying to retain their original registration numbers( in my case HU xxxx) I was fobbed off by DVLA and given an BF xxxx number ., supposedly an age related number , but further research has revealed that BF was last issued in 1904 and was withdrawn as the county set in Dorsetshire objected to having a number plate that inferred they were Bloody fools!

I've seen lots of other BF xxxx numbers recently now on Austin 7's and wonder if DVLA have decided Austin enthusiasts are all Bloody Fools!

"Under the Motor Car Act, 1903 the Local Government Board allocated BF to Dorsetshire. These letters did not find favour with some local motorists( ed : as BF was regarded as a short version of Bloody Fool!) and representations were made by the Dorset Automobile Association in 1903, the County Council applied for a change, which was permitted and by an LGB Order of 27/12/04 the mark FX was assigned.

The order did not require existing marks to be changed, but it provided that the owner could have the mark FX substituted for BF on giving notice to the county council.The last BF registration originally alloted was BF 162 on 20Dec 1994.

42 car owners and 41 motorcycle owners did not change their registration letters, but any remaining on the roads on 1/1/1921 were re-registered with FX numbers, since BF was not allocated under the Roads Act 1920 "

The above information quoted from Philip Riden's useful booklet "How to trace the History of Your Car" published in 1991.

I think I might write again to DVLA and claim my "legal" right to get an FX number, quoting the Dorsetshire precedent!

No doubt the HU xxxx I should have been allocated will now be sold for £1500? In the regular DVLA auction?as they say follow the money.

Bill G

Sent from my iPhone

Location: ScottishBorder

They only sell previously unallocated numbers

HU was a Bristol registration .

Location: Bristol

Has anyone been through the re-registration process recently with a standard car/project that has no paper evidence?

Location: Fife

Hi Ian

I knew it was an early Bristol number and wrote to the City Museums who hold some incomplete registration records.
They kindly supplied me with a copy of a receipt showing the HUxxxx vehicle record being transferred to Argyllshire , where the car was purchased/taxed by the owner I bought it from, Along with a 1976 Tax disc and MOT. But DVLA said I had not linked the 1925registration to the 1925 chassis no!

I asked them how many 1925 HU cars were transferred from Bristol to Argyll in 1976!!!!!!!! There seems to be no way to appeal either , so I gave up and accepted an age related BF( aka Dorsetshire Bloody Fool) number which now appear regularly on Austins and even on Bugatti's . What irony!

If it had been a BG number then I would have been happy!

Regards

Bill G

Location: Scottish Border

Classic Car Weekly

DVLA 'SWAMPED' BY
BARN FIND ENQUIRIES
Barn finds are increasingly common - but some might hide sinister pasts

leading group of experts are calling on the DVLA to do more about barn find-related car crime.
The IAATI says it's currently too easy for criminals to steal cars, and have them re-registered as barn finds with the DVLA.
The institute reports that criminals are stealing classics and with minimal questioning from the DVLA, can get the car re-registered.
Communications director Dr Ken German says: 'There's been a lot of barn finds being pumped through the DVLA's enquiry office lately. Unfortunately, the system is being abused by thieves. It's becoming far too easy to have stolen cars reregistered as barn finds. Most of the time, if you have a registration for it you will probably get an age-related numberplate for the car. 'All the things the DVLA are supposed to check seemingly aren't getting checked. It appears as long as someone has an old buff log book, they can get the forms through.

The DVLA has fought back against the criticisms, stating that although situations like this may happen, it's not a common occurrence. David Whitbread, media relations officer for the DVLA, says: 'We've not seen any rise in these situations - in fact, we haven't seen much change in tlie number of registration of barn finds.

Auction analyst Richard Hudson Evans thinks it's common sense that some barn finds aren't legitimate. He says: I am amazed they keep coming out the woodwork. Where do they all keep coming from? Interestingly, many so-called barn finds end up making serious money because they're popular at the moment. A lot of people like the idea of themselves being the first people to restore a car.
Silverstone auctions have had big success with barn finds, even selling £1 million-worth of them at its sale at the 2014 Lancaster Insurance Classic Motor Show.
Bosses from the company insist
that these types of cars go through stringent checks to ensure they don't have a chequered past. A spokesperson says: "All of our cars go through vigorous vetting
including HPI checks.

HOW TO REGISTER A BARN FIND

It must be built from genuine
period components from more
than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification.

The appropriate vehicle owners' club for the vehicle must inspect the vehicle and confirm in writing that it has been inspected, is a true reflection of the marque, and is comprised of genuine period components all over 25 years old.

They must also give manufacture dates for the major components.

The DVLA will assign an agerelated registration number to
the vehf'de based on the youngest component used.

It must be a true reflection of
the marque.

Location: South London

September the 23rd, now the first anniversary of the DVLA/FBHVC meeting concerning age related registration etc. No progress reported from either concern apparently. Anyone know otherwise?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Two months has passed since inspection and one month since receiving DVLA letter of confirmation of inspection.
Nothing at all yet.

Very very fustrating

Location: East Sussex

According to issue 4/2016 of the FBHVC newsletter,progress relating to new bodies on original chassis in order to obtain an age related registration number has been zero. We are advised by FBHVC to remain patient (again).
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Classic Car Weekly 26/10/16

FBHVC AT WAR WITH DVLA
Our roving newshound takes the pulse of a Federation battling to get the best for classic owners

The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs is at loggerheads with the DVLA over registration plates. So much so, it has called for an emergency discussion with Minister of State for Transport John Hayes. Dealing with the DVLA has proved immensely difficult over the past year/ FBHVC director of legislation, Bob Owen told the Federation's annual meeting at the British Motor Museum on 15 October.
One particular problem, CCW understands, is the V765 scheme, under which vehicles not on the DVLA database can be reunited with their original registrations. This is not working as intended.
Owen said a meeting with Hayes,whose responsibilities include looking at historic vehicle policy is on the cards 'imminently*.
Other serious concerns to be discussed will be the Government's consultation document on the proposed exemption of further classics from MoT testing. Owen emphasised that the problem was not with»the people at the DVLA but the systems it now worked under. We really do get on well with them and we really do believe they are trying to do their best for the classic movement but we are pretty uncomfortable with their policies/ says Owen.
The situation has worsened since the closure of local offices when a revisiting of the DVLA's policies had taken place.
The DVLA thinks it has merely tightened up existing processes but we strongly disagree and believe what in certain respects what has been introduced is new policy.
There were a lot more "yes" or "no" decisions rather than careful consideration of issues/ adds Owen.
The Agency also came under fire after it was revealed that various classic marques were not included on the DVLA database. The problem, which affected applications for vehicle tax, had not been resolved.

Location: Berkshire

OVER 3 MONTHS SINCE THE INSPECTION, HAVE NOT HEARD FROM DVLA.

Location: Esst Sussex

I suggest you start getting the big guns firing - contact your local MP, and also write direct to John Hayes MP (Minister responsible for DVLA): three months and failing to react to an inspection of their own instigation is totally unacceptable. If that was a commercial organisation they would be out of business by now!

I understand and respect DVLA's wish to tighten up Historic registrations - I think some of the vehicles which have been given Historic status should, indeed, be reclassified. But DVLA's handling of the situation has been appalling, and it's about time someone was taken to task ...