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I think it’s worth mentioning...
FBHVC Newsletter 2013. Re: The Charter of Turin.
‘Some, who have failed to grasp the political significance of this important development have sought to portray the charter as an example of officialdom constraining the use and preservation of historic vehicles. Nothing could be further from the truth’.
Re: FBHVC Newsletter 2015. Re: DVLA Policy Changes.
‘Discussions on our unhappiness at what is happening have continued without much success until now. […] If we get anywhere with this approach we will clearly be asking what public interest is served by this new obsession with originality where it was previously not required’.
Who failed to grasp what, couldn’t be clearer.
Location: North Yorkshire
Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".
Hi Steve,
that's pretty much what I surmised.
Doesn't help that DVLA no longer have adequately trained and knoweledgable staff.
Having worked for another government Quango involving rules and regulations, the making thereof and implementation of same, -seeing the current DVLA half ars*d we'll make it up as we go along approach doesn't inspire me with confidence.
Steve V.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
In a reverse to a recent situation, we colonials sit in startled wonder at the UK's historic car groups ongoing discussions with the DVLA (and I thought VicRoads was a weird name)
Look at the length of this series of Forum postings !
This rather bizarre story-
"The car will have been imported into the UK with documents from the USA saying it is a 1927 Bugatti. The DVLA accept whatever is included on documentation issued in another country without question and, thus, issued the V5. The owner has benefited from this loophole but has, probably, done nothing wrong at all having followed DVLA procedure to the letter."
must surely give some ammunition to point up the stupidity in the DVLA's approach to the recent decisions regarding rebuilt Austin Sevens.
But what would a colonial know
Tony.
Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
before all you guys start booking your shipping containers, remember all those 'Pur Sangs' that were imported into the UK and accepted to be registered as Bugattis, are now getting letters. Our tasty mate with the VW will likely get one as well!
Location: oz
Location: East Sussex
Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".
You could try an FOI (Freedom of Inforamtion) request from DVLA. They should be able to extract that detail from their database.
Location: NE Peak Corner
Location: Eye on the Norfolk / Suffolk border
Fascinating that with all the hoo haa going on with the DVLA, the latest edition of the FBHVC News carries a four page article on the British Motor Heritage - manufacturers of replace bodies for makes such as the Mini, MGB etc.
Location: Melton Mowbray
Location: Auckland NZ
'If it's true that we are witnessing the death of special building then it's a very sad day'.
It's even sadder if we just stand by and watch it happen!
Location: North Yorkshire
I could be wrong here, but as I understand it at under the rules at the present time, if you have a vehicle that has a current V5C you are able to fit a replacement body different from the original to the unmodified chassis. The DVLA are informed by using the V627/1 form, the vehicles name must be changed as it no longer resembles the original, but it will retain its original registration number and historic status and will have to be inspected.
This information comes from Ribble Kits http://www.sammio.co.uk/images/Ribble.pdf
Who supply glass fibre bodies for Triumph Herald type chassis and class it as a classic re-body and not a kit rebuild. If this information is correct it should be fairly easy to register an A7 special with a current V5C.
Location: Pembrokeshire
As far as I can interpret the DVLA's policy,there is no problem whatsoever in creating a special from a complete vehicle with a current registration; equally there should be no problem in obtaining an age-related plate for an unrecorded vehicle, as long as you can supply suitable evidence of the vehicle's original identity in the form of the buff or green Registration Document.
The problem we now have is the resurrection or reconstruction from an original chassis frame and components from other origins which the DVLA term as a reconstructed classic. Even though the chassis has always been considered the basic unit of the vehicle, and in the case of the Austin Seven the frame can be readily dated from its number, DVLA are now no longer accepting that as being evidence of the age of the special.
Unless I’m missing some fundamental point, parts of the Progress Report posted by Chris Garner headed ‘V765 Scheme’ and ‘Reconstructed Classics’, seem to me to be contrary to Phil’s and Mike’s interpretations of the maybe/maybe not, rules.
In particular, sections 8, 9 and 15 together are something that Joseph Heller might have been proud of and, equally imaginative, under the heading of Progress, ‘Initial discussions underway with the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs’!
In 2006, I finished my A7 Special and took it to the local DVLA offices for inspection. The 8-point system was applied and a tax disc awarded. I have written to Sir Greg Knight urging him to argue with the utmost vigour for the system’s ‘complete, unaltered and unambiguous reinstatement’.
Only then will Special builders know where we stand.
I saw this Big Seven looking sorry for itself and on reading the advert it would seem that we are returning to the problems that we used to have in that even given the evidence, the DVLA are refusing to play ball. If we can't even return genuine original cars to the road then we really do have a big problem. Effectively, our hobby could be frozen in time with no more old cars being rescued and restored. Is that a fair assessment?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1937-Austin-Big-Seven-Original-Restoration-or-Pre-War-Racer-Project-RARE-/111902058518?hash=item1a0de1e816:g:s9cAAOSwHQ9Wbttz
Location: Derby
They don't say if they went through the procedure of having an appropriate club official verify the authenticity of the car which would be necessary under the current rules, since the demise of the Local Vehicle Licensing Offices who would have done the inspection previously.
I suspect they didn't and tried to do it solo.
Steve V.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
With reference to the Big Seven mentioned by Ray, has it not always been the case that an MOT was required before a "lost" registration could be re-activated, or an age-related one issued? This particular car is highly unlikely to ever get one!
Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".
Location: Derby
'has it not always been the case that an MOT was required before a "lost" registration could be re-activated'
Nope, when I got my Austin 10 Lichfield's original registration re-issued to me circa 1980, I had the car inspected by on officer from Brighton LVLO and had to hand over the old buff logbook and once verified the original reg was was re-issued on a V5.
Things aren't the same now obviously.
Steve V.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
I went into my local DVLA office before they all shut to try to get my car's number back. I found them very helpful, took my Norfolk club dating cert, period pics and buff log book, they photocopied them and sent them off. Two weeks later V5c drops through the door, ahh the good ol days. No need for an mot to apply for the V5 but once issued it stays dormant until the car is mot'd.
Location: Eye on the Norfolk / Suffolk border
From one of the Facebook Austin 7 special groups.
interesting one today my friends special had ruby on log book so as he heard new rules that if body type is not the same as what the car is he decided to chat to them and find out what to do ,there straight away took original old number of car and has to be q plate ,mot and taxed really bad but seems no special will be save unless it has tourer specail or two seater on log book
Location: Buxted
I missed reading this bit in FBHVC News issue 1,2016 until just now.
"I have to report that the first approach by the All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group (APPHVG) to Government has not achieved very positive results. Following the presentation of our arguments in a meeting with the Minister, Mr Andrew Jones MP by the APPHVG chairman, Sir Greg Knight, and our chairman David Whale, the only response has been that: “The policy has not changed”. While this comment was made during a speech and so was accompanied by no detail, we understand Mr Jones is writing to Sir Greg, which might mean we get more clarity on the reasons why DVLA consider this to be the case. We do not doubt that Sir Greg will wish to take the matter further and we will be working out how best to support him.
Meanwhile we can only say to those with projects which now appear to be at risk because of changed bodywork styles that they ought not to despair, but on the other hand would probably be best to be patient and not to put forward applications for the next little while, as things might well get a little better."
This was published a number of weeks ago now.
So what's the latest?
Can we expect a happy conclusion to this fiasco soon or will it carry on interminably?
Dave.
Location: Sheffield
We can expect nothing if we do nothing.
Hi Nigel,
do we know when we will hear what happened as a result of the 'All Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group' meeting held on the 10th February?
I seem to remember around the end of Feb was mentioned somewhere or is my memory playing tricks?!
Steve V.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Hello Steve, I'm still waiting for a reply to my last letter to Sir Greg. I've no idea what the agenda was for their last meeting but I would hope that ours and anyone else's comments would have been discussed. As soon as I hear, you'll hear.
I’ve heard today from Sir Greg who writes,
‘I am having a number of discussions with Ministers about the current attitude of the DVLA […]
Ministers do appear to be both interested and willing to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion […]
I will do what I can!’
Here’s something from Martin Luther King Jr (perhaps a shade melodramatic but nevertheless topical):
‘The saving of our world from pending doom will come not from the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority but from the creative maladjustment of a non-conforming minority.'
Special builders and Ministers take note.
'creative maladjustment of a non-conforming minority' - that must be us!
I hate built in obsolescence and the brain washing of ''if it's new it must be better'' - don't get me wrong if somethings good then it's good - whatever the age.
However I like things that can be repaired and given renewed life, which is in part why we like our old cars.
Also if it's old, repairable and still as good or better than it's modern counterpart then I like that even better still.
Which is why I play vinyl records on a 1970's turntable played through late 1950's valve amplifiers all of which I have rebuilt.
Ironically they compete very well for sound quality and don't seem to display the muddy sound that can be associated with some vintage systems.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Look more appropriate in here
Jeff Taylor
Feb 24, 2016 - 1:57PM
Quote Reply FIVA Press Release 11am Feb 24th
See 'Practical Classics' Facebook page for the full discussion - needless to say they're not too happy with the FIVA press release:
https://www.facebook.com/PracticalClassics/posts/1121395297878756
https://www.facebook.com/PracticalClassics/photos/a.268875403130754.70714.225407620810866/1121407311210888/?type=3&theater
Also mentioned in the left hand column of their web page - scroll down the page.
http://www.practicalclassics.co.uk
DH: FIVA says: “By ‘historic vehicle’, we mean a mechanically
propelled road vehicle at least 30 years old, preserved and maintained in a historically correct condition and not used as a means of daily transport. These vehicles are part of our
technical and cultural heritage and, in our opinion, should not be lumped together with old, badly maintained cars.”
FIVA.... you have a fight on your hands. I have started by asking an official question - how will they define and police 'historically correct'. We need to mobilise around this. This is a picture of my daily.... which according to FIVA is not historic because I use it regularly.
Jeff.
Location: Almost but not quite, the far North East of England
Location: East Sussex
just to repeat what I said in Jeffs thread.
I don't like the idea of being told when I can and cannot drive my vehicle.
Being historic and a daily driver shouldn't be totally mutually exclusive.
I don't want old, well maintained cars to become glorified museum pieces otherwise what's the point of having one.
Also if there are no affordable newer old cars permitted, how will we get younger people into the old car world?
Steve V.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".
As predicted here and elsewhere, we are being led by the nose into a situation where the definition of "historic vehicle" is laid down by the E.U. in accordance with the Charter of Turin.
Location: Derby
Would someone who has precise knowledge of these matters care to explain the route that a "rank and file" club member needs to traverse to elicit information from high level discussions/decisions being made on our behalf. For example the PWA7C has a committee and officers who one would expect to be kept informed by the FBHVC (or are there others as well as FBHVC?)regularly of all matters of concern to the old vehicle movement. This is then passed down to the r and f member. Since this DVLA business started about a year ago there have been many rumours,much speculation,especially on our "Friends" website but very few facts and from what I have seen this is not the fault of said committee and officers. I realise that all the above committee and officers do this job for no payment and entirely out of enthusiasm for old cars.
So do clubs pay the FBHVC and if so how much and wouldn't that entitle us to a decent level of service from them as far as reporting back or am I being too naive?
Dave.
Location: Sheffield
I think I'm right that the rate paid by a club for membership is about 40p per member. That doesn't sound a lot until you work out that for a large club like PWA7C that's almost 500 quid a year. All the more reason that we should be demanding better consideration than we get. Personally I think FBHVC take us for a ride.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
We could soon find ourselves being restricted by EU regulations on old and historic vehicles, and they would appear to be more concerned about air quality than history as well as any thing the DVLA may wish to introduce on top.
The thing that does not get mentioned anywhere is that an old or historic vehicle may pollute the air more than a modern but when you take into account the pollution caused by manufacturing,shipping, scrapping and recycling several new cars to replace that vehicle over the years the older vehicle becomes quite environmentally friendly.
Location: Pembrokeshire
Too many regulations, too many jobsworths.
Location: The Centre of the Universe
Location: Buxted
Location: Derby
In my capacity as VC of the A7CA and Chair of the PWA7C, I think a brief response to the comments made by Dave Wortley and Stephen Voller is in order.
We agree, and sympathise with, many of these views and comments; our Committees being as concerned as everyone is and trying our best to liaise and lobby the necessary bodies. I personally have communicated with the two MPs mentioned previously but was directed back to the DVLA. As you are aware I published the latest " edict " from the DVLA recently but have heard nothing more officially, despite trying. There are many comments floating about, many of which I would describe as spurious, and I am loathe to pass these on. Our Pre War Authentication Officer, Peter Rowlands, is working hard but is very frustrated and embarrassed at having to be the bearer of bad news to our members. We are seeing changes in the DVLA but these only seem to be increased questions and paperwork.
The Association did its best to attend the meeting at Swansea last year as the official body representing the thousands of owners, but were not selected. The whole situation seems to have stalled but we are being proactive as far as we can and monitoring the whole sorry saga constantly. Personally, and maybe pessimistically, I think our Masters will have other things on their minds leading up to the referendum, to bother about us and our plight!
Chris Garner
Location: Melton Mowbray
Chris,
Thanks for putting forward your thoughts. We special builders are going to be in limbo for a while yet possibly.
Cheers,
Dave.
Location: Sheffield
Hi Chris,
May I also thank you for your response.
I do appreciate that club officials are doing what they can and that they are having an embarrassing time dealing with faceless officialdom.
I don't think the DVLA are giving club officials the level of respect that they deserve.
If you've managed to wade through this whole thread you will have seen that I worked for a government QUANGO in the NHS and have seen how these things work behind the scenes.
I think this means I'm taking the whole situation rather personally as I've seen how a major arms length government body can ride roughshod over those they seek to legislate over, in my then employers case it was NHS dentists and all in the name of cutting costs.
Whilst I agree that Whitehall will be busy with the In/Out vote, the DVLA will still be pushing on with their agenda regardless, as this is how these departments work.
My Austin 2 seater doesn't have a registration as lack of funds, life, health and a mortgage got in the way and it's only since last October that I was able to resume working on my dream car.
It was only then that I discovered the current debacle.
I partially console myself that if the worst comes to the worst, because the project was so long term (beginning 1983) I can recoup most of my outlays by selling it off piecemeal, but that will still leave my goal of restoration and driving the finished vehicle unfulfilled - but such is life.
Steve V.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Make no mistake, our historic vehicle world is being lured onto the rocks.
In 2013, The Charter of Turin was ratified by a bunch of people most of us have never heard of and the FBHVC hailed this as a triumph of good sense.
Well, as Senior Vice-President of FIVA at the time and latterly, Head of the FIA’s Commission Historique Internationale Legislation Working Party happened to be no other than David Whale, current Chairman of the FBHVC, the Federation’s rather nebulous position in the present crisis comes as no surprise.
David Whale’s ‘holistic’ approach to the ‘wider ranging global status of historic vehicles’ (in other words a ‘fits-all’ solution) dovetails neatly with the DVLA's new position and is precisely what the historic vehicle movement in this country doesn’t need.
We are being hood-winked by the FBHVC; their support for the Charter of Turin and its restrictive formula for historic vehicles is unequivocal and their complaint about the DVLA’s ‘obsession with originality’ is a complete smoke-screen.
Follow the wrecker’s lights at your peril.
I understand that if the E.U. referendum results in Britain leaving, it will take a minimum of two years - and probably a lot longer - for this country to extract itself from the numerous treaties that we are signed up to. Plenty of time for the DVLA to adopt the E.U. formula as a permanent policy.
...or am I being pessimistic again?
Location: Derby
As there seems to be quite wide variations in the regulations in France, Germany, Belgium and Holland I cannot see how anyone can believe we are to be subjected to "EU rules". If we are, how come no EU member country has the same identical regulations rather than individual nations doing their own thing based on their historic national traffic regulations?
It would appear that much of this "discussion" forms part of the constant drip-feed of poison as has been stock "straight bananas, ban 8 year-olds from inflating balloons " propaganda from the likes of the Daily Mail.
If people are prepared to make their decisions on such an ill-informed basis, heaven help us!
Location: Ripon
Re the issue with DVLA has anyone / club thought of raising an e petition to have the issue raised in the Westminster it appears to be a straight forward process, 6 signatures to start the process get over 100,000 and it should be debated. Clearly there would need to be a clear issue and resolution required and not just a moan against DVLA. More info in the link below.
http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/sign-a-petition/e-petitions/
Just a though as I am sure there are enough people to sign the petition and we may get some resolution before we get bogged down in the EU debate.
Location: Dorset