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Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

An interesting suggestion, Nigel. I doubt the DVLA would voluntarily hand over control to anyone because it would be seen as an admission of failure. If the Government directed them to do so, I wonder how it would be paid for? I can't see the FBHVC taking this on - it would probably be too much for them. I imagine the Government would just set up another quango with a whole raft of charges and fees. That way, they keep control and rake in the cash while protesting that they "are doing something".

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Ray White
Perhaps it's on a Q plate?


My understanding of DVLA's convoluted rules on this stuff is the vehicle would come under "kit conversion" rules in that It would be able to keep its original registration if it has kept the donor vehicle's structure(i.e. the monocoque unmodified) along with its running gear, and has just changed appearance -in these circumstances, the vehicle make model in the V5C would have to change from whatever the the original manufacturer called it. Some (incomplete and ambiguous) DVLA info here https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/kitconverted-vehicles

Location: N W Kent

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

As I understand things, the DVLA 'is a Quango'
Maybe the Government should allow the DVLA to have dedicated staff to deal with things properly... oh wait, that's what we used to have before Local Vehicle Licensing Offices were scrapped and successive cutbacks brought in!

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Before we do any thing, we need to have a list of what the old vehicle movement actually want from the DVLA. There are a lot of issues to be covered here, the current DVLA system seems to have covered most points but is left to unqualified individual staff members to make decisions about a vehicles future. This must not and cannot be allowed to continue.

Appointed club officials ( at least two )would seem to be the only people qualified to do such assessments, but now with a certified legally binding responsibility to be accurate.

We also need to establish what actually defines a motor vehicle in the first place,fortunately the law has all ready been done this for us. Any self propelled vehicle that can be used on a public road. So technically a drivable chassis is self propelled vehicle or a pile of components that can be assembled into a drivable vehicle and there for needs to be registered regardless of any body type fitted to it.The same applies to a drivable body shell. Remember you cannot tow a motor vehicle with or without an engine on a public road without it being road legal with the exception of it being taken to be scrapped.
Next, how much original equipment is required for it to get an age related / Q plate or new registration. This should be established if possible before any restoration work is carried out to assess what will need to be replaced with new or replica components. ( 8 point rule )

As above a barn find car with all the correct components and numbers should be no trouble to get a V5C issued before restoration, regardless of weather or not records exist for it. The vehicle exists as a whole and the numbers are correct for the year and type.( Standard issue V5C age related or original registration number issued )

Vehicle or chassis with some traceable numbers ( V5C date of original manufacture unknown believed to be ? and age related number. )

Component parts with no ID needs to be assessed on its originality and age 8 point system( V5C states made from period component parts, age related plate )

Component parts off or vehicle with no ID does not meet 8 points but old components ( Q plate SVA exempted but MOT and road fund payable )

A vehicle / chassis constructed from mainly new major components,with some original components fitted but does not meet 8 points ( Q plate replica, SVA exempted but MOT and road fund payable )

With this type of system and re-registering a vehicle before it is restored would show how much of it is original and the BOC officials that handed out the chassis numbers would be liable to prosecution, because not enough of the car qualifies as original and the vehicles would become both taxable and MOT compliant but would not be liable to an modern car SVA test that it could not pass.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel has come up with the best suggestion I've heard to date. I have an ex commercial pilot pal who now does inspections of things like old Tiger Moths for the CAA under the light aircraft banner. The existing points system which applies to new build kit cars and restored vehicles could be used as it stands with club officers doing what they already do with added training and responsibility,
Unfortunately this is probably too sensible to be put into practice but if FBHVA were to produce a suitable online or postable standard letter to be completed by members who knows what might transpire...

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Phil Kingdom
.....and the BOC officials that handed out the chassis numbers would be liable to prosecution, because not enough of the car qualifies as original.......


Remember, those 'officials' you refer to were/are Club volunteers just like many of us are with the various Clubs we belong to. Seems a sure fire way to ensure nobody ever volunteers to be involved with running a Club ever again!!

Location: North Yorkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Stephen Voller
As I understand things, the DVLA 'is a Quango'
Maybe the Government should allow the DVLA to have dedicated staff to deal with things properly... oh wait, that's what we used to have before Local Vehicle Licensing Offices were scrapped and successive cutbacks brought in!


The cutbacks should represent an opportunity for vehicle clubs to offer to take control of classic, vintage etc. vehicle registration issues.

We have an odd "half way house" situation at the moment with people (who know about the particular genre of vehicle) on the V765 list are advising people at DVLA who are completely ignorant as regards old vehicles, but who are the ones who are making binding (and occasionally perverse) decisions.

If clubs and individuals who are on the V765 list were able to charge a reasonable fee to the owner for a legally binding authentication (or not) of a vehicle, this would both lower the administration cost to DVLA and would deliver a more transparent and equitable system to enthusiasts than we have now. IMO, this is what the FBHVC could usefully be arguing for with the government to permanently fix this issue.

Location: N W Kent

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Steve Jones
Phil Kingdom
.....and the BOC officials that handed out the chassis numbers would be liable to prosecution, because not enough of the car qualifies as original.......


Remember, those 'officials' you refer to were/are Club volunteers just like many of us are with the various Clubs we belong to. Seems a sure fire way to ensure nobody ever volunteers to be involved with running a Club ever again!!


That is part of the problem,a club official is a volunteer and as such has no real binding responsibility for their actions and maybe a bit over enthusiastic. If the post was made as a voluntary DVLA officials / advisor's with a legal responsibility for their actions with at least two volunteers per club in agreement, working along current DVLA guidelines. There would seem to be no consequences at the present time for a single volunteer to deliberately misinterpret a vehicles status, and that is what has caused this problem in the first place. Even as a single club volunteer a fraud has been committed if they get it wrong, and if the club expert can get it wrong how can we expect the pen pushers at the DVLA to get it right.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

There is also the question of a "conflict of interest". Even District Councillors are reluctant to do much to help with issues that occur near to where they live because if the problem is on their doorstep, so to speak, it is seen in some quarters as a conflict of interest. Political correctness?Anything that is seen to be beneficial to vested interests will soon get stamped on.

You need to be playing with the big boys to get away with it.

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I wonder if it might be better to explore the positive side of such a devolution and examine ways of structuring an organisation that was fit for purpose, rather than focus on the reasons for its possible failure.

In answer to the question, ‘who will pay?’ - we will. It’s our hobby and if we could put forward a proposal that preserves our privileges for all time and that might cost each of us annually what road tax used to cost, it’s hardly going to kill us is it?

To kick off with a few thoughts, I would hesitate to pick inspectors exclusively from within car clubs for obvious reasons – petty internal conflicts and so forth that can influence judgements. Rather, as I envisage an entirely voluntary system of inspectors, those would-be inspectors might apply for the position independently and give references to be taken up by the authorising body.

It would be made clear from the outset that the responsibilities associated with an inspector’s recommendations would be binding and falsifying the results of an inspection would result in prosecution (obviously, if the inspector’s been hood-winked then that’s different).

There would be a set number of inspectors for each area in the UK and applications for the post of inspector would be looked on favourably if the applicant could demonstrate some relevant experience – the motor trade, engineering, a history of involvement in the Historic Vehicle world etc. and if these factors were backed up by letters of recommendation.

The inspectors would view applications for visits on a database run from a small central office that might be attached to an existing set-up in the movement – for instance, The National Motor Museum might like to get involved. The owner seeking an approval would pay a small fee for the inspection and the inspector could ask beforehand for reasonable travel expenses to be paid directly by the owner.

Following an inspection, the application would signed by the owner (whether successful or not) and the authorising office would submit the application to the DVLA. It would necessarily go through ‘on the nod’ although occasional checks might be made to verify the details and that nobody’s cheating.

We could ask for a grant to get things going and a small government subsidy to run the office until such time – like the CAA – the Historic Vehicle Association (or whatever it’s called) becomes self-funding.

I’m sure I haven’t thought of half of it but it’s a start?

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I like it!

Nigel, please let me know if if there is any way in which I might be of assistance.

If we can break ground with this idea I think it will quickly be accepted by old car enthusiasts Nationwide, as the way forward. There are bound to be problems ahead but with perseverance they can be overcome.

I would be keen to put my name forward as an Inspector for Derbyshire. A steep learning curve I expect but no one said it would be easy.

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Whilst I believe the DVLA is being unreasonably strict in their interpretation of what is acceptable as a 'reconstructed classic', there is no doubt something needs to be done when a car like this is let loose on the roads:



Believe it or not, this is an MOT-exempt 'Historic' 1925 Singer - I have been unable to find any Vintage Singer specification which includes transverse-leaf springs and a supercharged V-8 engine!

Things seem to have gone strangely quiet on this topic - how long is it going to take for DVLA to come up with suitable guidelines so that the special-building community cane recommence their activities?

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I came across this the other day, http://www.sammio.co.uk/register.aspx it would seem to be quite simple to register a historic special, assuming one has the correct paper work for the chassis, but what is involved in the inspection?

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Mike,
It doesn't appear to have a body. Could this be a loophole that's allowed it back on the road?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Motor Trike??

Location: Wessex

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Dave: No the Singer has no bodywork, wings, lights, windscreen, not even any protection of the external rotating bits of the engine! I think I suggested a few pages earlier that one solution to the DVLA problem would be to stick a verifiably over-25-year-old household chair onto a running chassis.

Ian: No, not a trike; it looks like it's got a mid-thirties Ford front axle and solid disc alloy wheels which the builder claims as Austin Seven style!

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I heard today from Sir Greg Knight regarding the idea of devolving the remit of the DVLA:

'I understand that there are certain changes taking place at the moment with regard to the DVLA and how they view historic vehicles which, hopefully, should lead to an ironing out of recent problems.

I will bear your comments in mind should the situation not improve'.

Firstly, I wonder who the DVLA are consulting to effect these 'certain changes' and if that party has our interests at heart (certainly not if it's an internal departmental exercise and definitely not if it's the FBHVC).

Secondly, the 'ironing out of recent problems' will be to who's advantage?
As recent events have demonstrated, the DVLA's idea of ironing out problems is somewhat at odds with the spirit of the historic vehicle movement.

If anyone hears anything of these 'certain changes', let us know.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

The VSCC newsletter contains a progress report which on first reading appears positive and hopeful

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

care to elaborate Duncan ?
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Well the way I read it, it seemed to be a statement of how things were last September, and nothing much has changed since

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Thanks Alan,
so nothing new really - shame, I was getting my hopes up. :O(
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

"Positive and hopeful" or "nothing has changed". I am confused.
Dave.

Location: "Sheffield, call centre city"

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Have a read through:
http://www.vscc-newsletter.co.uk/02-16-Newsletter/02-16-Newsletter.pdf

Location: Ripon

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

VSCC members only isn't it?

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I didn't realise there was a block on it, sorry. The same info is available elsewhere on t'interweb,I'll see if I can find a link...

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

The link works fine for me so I don't think it's "blocked"

Location: NE Peak Corner

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

At this stage I can see nothing that helps those who say, have complete set of mechanicals I.E complete vehicle minus the body, but with no registration who intend to restore said vehicle remains to original condition and who also intend to add a body constructed using traditional body making skills.
That is unless you go down the reconstructed classics route - it is unclear how your application would be treated or whether you could get a period registration number.

''15. Rebodied(P) Q:Where a replacement body (under 25 years old) is used, can a vehicle still be considered under the scheme?

answer: A reconstructed classic must be built from a collection of all genuine period parts, over 25 years old.
This includes the body, which must be appropriate to the vehicle.

A vehicle built from a mix of old and new parts is not acceptable.

DVLA comment: Initial discussions underway with the Federation of British
Historic Vehicle Clubs.''



DVLA were also asked to give a list of definitions:

''16 Definitions(P) -Could definitions be provided for rebuilt, restored and repaired vehicles?

-Clubs asked for definitions of each of the terms in order to ensure correct
terminology is used on the applications.

DVLA answer: This will be considered, however, it should be noted that there is difficulty in providing definitions as they depend on the nature of the work carried out.''

Surely without some sort of guidance/definitions then it's impossible to judge or make an application?

So while it is being discussed, there is nothing confirmed and nothing new since 23/09/15.
Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

This business could go on longer than the Dilnot Report.

Location: Sheffield

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

'This business could go on longer than the Dilnot Report.'

At that rate I may have to down the two bare seats and no bodywork route....
Yikes!
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

“DVLA answer: This will be considered, however, it should be noted that there is difficulty in providing definitions as they depend on the nature of the work carried out.''

In the spring of 1986, Miss Whizzlong and I found ourselves in the foyer of the Department of Trade’s headquarters in Victoria St, London, as part of a planning committee.
The bicentennial of The Board of Trade was just round the corner and a bit of a beano was on the cards; HM was to unveil a plaque, Paul Channon (then Secretary of State for Trade & Industry) would say a few words following which we’d all fall on the crisps and pop.
There were 7 people arranged in a semi-circle in the foyer with Channon at one end and me at the other. The question was asked, ‘What colour should the foyer’s celebratory curtains be?’ and in a scene worthy of ‘Yes Minister’, Paul Channon consulted briefly with his aide, his aide turned to the Head of Management, the Head of Management turned to his secretary who turned to the commissioning architect, who looked at Miss Whizzlong and she turned to me.
‘Gold’.
A murmur of approval rippled its way back to the Minister.

If the DVLA would just admit that they’re out of their depth and devolve the responsibility of historic vehicles to an independent body, then things will move forward.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel


If the DVLA would just admit that they’re out of their depth and devolve the responsibility of historic vehicles to an independent body, then things will move forward.


They did devolve a chunk of oversight and some very dubious and some entirely new cars turned up on the road.

You can't blame them for being mistrusting,

Charles

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Spot on Charles.
It would be interesting to know if that ‘chunk of oversight’ was officially sanctioned and if so, how? Such a mechanism could be cited as a precedent for change.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Chris Garner writes:

R,

Further to the on going discussions on the Friends' Forum if you think pertinent could / would you place the enclosed attachments on there please? It may fill in a few gaps and of course keep the readers informed.

Regards

Chris


https://gordonenglandregister.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/progress-report-9-11-15.pdf

https://gordonenglandregister.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/information-attachment.pdf

https://gordonenglandregister.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/rc-built-up-vehicle-report-hve.pdf

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Thanks for posting that Ruairidh, most helpful.

Location: Ripon

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Chris is the one to thank Duncan, I am just the messenger...

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Thank you Chris for the documents.

Chilling reading; the DVLA are going all out to kill off Special building.

I'm sure some people will be clapping their hands with glee but I think most would recognise the wider implications of the DVLA’s new posture regarding historic and classic vehicles.
I have written yet again to Sir Greg Knight with some comments on the Progress Report.

The All Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group is next meeting on the 10th February and, if you have some thoughts on the contents of these documents, it might be worthwhile contacting the Group by email at thomasml@parliament.uk

If we don’t make a noise about this, we can blame only ourselves for whatever constraints are put on our enjoyments in the future.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

"Legally registered 1927 Bugatti" http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121887307337?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Note the charming sales patter! I am now awaiting the arrival of the constabulary.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Comments from the sales blurb:-"I DO NOT NEED ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE VEHICLE FROM HISTORIANS . UNWANTED MESSAGES ARE NOW ILLEGAL AND WILL BE FORWARDED TO THE POLICE AS I'M SICK OF EBAY ANORAKS AND RATHER THAN PUNCH YOU IN YOUR TEENAGE HEAD I WILL JUST LET YOU RING YOUR MUM WHEN EBAY BAN YOU AND THE COPS PLAY WITH YOU IN A CELL."
Quite unpleasant.
Dave.

Location: "Sheffield, call centre city"

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Dave Wortley
AND THE COPS PLAY WITH YOU IN A CELL."
Quite unpleasant.
Dave.


cops play with you in a cell dave? i didnt think they were allowed to do that any more.

or do you mean cards?

tony

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Tony,
I think he/she is trying to be amusing but to me it sounds crass.Not a nice way to sell anything.
Dave.

Location: "Sheffield, call centre city"

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

The vendor sounds like a real charmer!
Registered as 1927 Bugatti on a V5c!
What I want to know is how the hell can it get a V5 as a period car when the DVLA are giving us such a hard time over registering legitimate original or rebodied vehicles?

Nigel, I've emailed the Historic Vehicle Group as you suggested re our current problems with the DVLA - hopefully it will do some good somehow.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I think it’s worth mentioning...

FBHVC Newsletter 2013. Re: The Charter of Turin.

‘Some, who have failed to grasp the political significance of this important development have sought to portray the charter as an example of officialdom constraining the use and preservation of historic vehicles. Nothing could be further from the truth’.

Re: FBHVC Newsletter 2015. Re: DVLA Policy Changes.

‘Discussions on our unhappiness at what is happening have continued without much success until now. […] If we get anywhere with this approach we will clearly be asking what public interest is served by this new obsession with originality where it was previously not required’.

Who failed to grasp what, couldn’t be clearer.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Stephen Voller
What I want to know is how the hell can it get a V5 as a period car when the DVLA are giving us such a hard time over registering legitimate original or re-bodied vehicles?


The car will have been imported into the UK with documents from the USA saying it is a 1927 Bugatti. The DVLA accept whatever is included on documentation issued in another country without question and, thus, issued the V5. The owner has benefited from this loophole but has, probably, done nothing wrong at all having followed DVLA procedure to the letter.

Steve

Location: North Yorkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Steve Jones
Stephen Voller
What I want to know is how the hell can it get a V5 as a period car when the DVLA are giving us such a hard time over registering legitimate original or re-bodied vehicles?


The car will have been imported into the UK with documents from the USA saying it is a 1927 Bugatti. The DVLA accept whatever is included on documentation issued in another country without question and, thus, issued the V5. The owner has benefited from this loophole but has, probably, done nothing wrong at all having followed DVLA procedure to the letter.

Steve



I contacted the seller and this appears to be exactly what has happened.

The authorities in California are, apparently, quite happy to register a re-bodied 1967 VW Beetle as a 1927 Bugatti. On import to the UK it appears that DVLA accept the US paperwork with no further questions asked.

All perfectly legit, but an absolutely crazy loophole given what now seems to be demanded of a "native" special!

Perhaps a return trip to the US with a large container is in order!

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Hi Steve,
that's pretty much what I surmised.
Doesn't help that DVLA no longer have adequately trained and knoweledgable staff.
Having worked for another government Quango involving rules and regulations, the making thereof and implementation of same, -seeing the current DVLA half ars*d we'll make it up as we go along approach doesn't inspire me with confidence.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Martin Prior


I contacted the seller and this appears to be exactly what has happened.

The authorities in California are, apparently, quite happy to register a re-bodied 1967 VW Beetle as a 1927 Bugatti. On import to the UK it appears that DVLA accept the US paperwork with no further questions asked.

All perfectly legit, but an absolutely crazy loophole given what now seems to be demanded of a "native" special!

Perhaps a return trip to the US with a large container is in order!


Martin, I trust you won't get a visit from 'da boys' as a result!
- wonder how many you could get in a container!!
Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

In a reverse to a recent situation, we colonials sit in startled wonder at the UK's historic car groups ongoing discussions with the DVLA (and I thought VicRoads was a weird name)

Look at the length of this series of Forum postings !

This rather bizarre story-

"The car will have been imported into the UK with documents from the USA saying it is a 1927 Bugatti. The DVLA accept whatever is included on documentation issued in another country without question and, thus, issued the V5. The owner has benefited from this loophole but has, probably, done nothing wrong at all having followed DVLA procedure to the letter."

must surely give some ammunition to point up the stupidity in the DVLA's approach to the recent decisions regarding rebuilt Austin Sevens.

But what would a colonial know

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

before all you guys start booking your shipping containers, remember all those 'Pur Sangs' that were imported into the UK and accepted to be registered as Bugattis, are now getting letters. Our tasty mate with the VW will likely get one as well!

Location: oz

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

squeak
before all you guys start booking your shipping containers, remember all those 'Pur Sangs' that were imported into the UK and accepted to be registered as Bugattis, are now getting letters. Our tasty mate with the VW will likely get one as well!


SQUEAK Your facts are wrong there is only 4 yes 4 Pur Sang Bugatti's registered in the UK the other Bugatti's who received letters from DVLA (170 in total) are UK manufactured and registered with a BC number issued by the BOC.
There is more Pur Sang cars officially registered in Australia than in the UK.

Location: East Sussex

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Liam McDermott
squeak
before all you guys start booking your shipping containers, remember all those 'Pur Sangs' that were imported into the UK and accepted to be registered as Bugattis, are now getting letters. Our tasty mate with the VW will likely get one as well!


SQUEAK Your facts are wrong there is only 4 yes 4 Pur Sang Bugatti's registered in the UK the other Bugatti's who received letters from DVLA (170 in total) are UK manufactured and registered with a BC number issued by the BOC.
There is more Pur Sang cars officially registered in Australia than in the UK.



But Liam, those are the ones that we know about. How many "Bugattis" (and others) have been imported into the UK without questions being asked, on the strength of paperwork generated by a foreign licensing authority? We simply don't and probably can't know.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

You could try an FOI (Freedom of Inforamtion) request from DVLA. They should be able to extract that detail from their database.

Location: NE Peak Corner

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