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Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

VSCC members only isn't it?

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Ray White
Perhaps it's on a Q plate?


My understanding of DVLA's convoluted rules on this stuff is the vehicle would come under "kit conversion" rules in that It would be able to keep its original registration if it has kept the donor vehicle's structure(i.e. the monocoque unmodified) along with its running gear, and has just changed appearance -in these circumstances, the vehicle make model in the V5C would have to change from whatever the the original manufacturer called it. Some (incomplete and ambiguous) DVLA info here https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/kitconverted-vehicles

Location: N W Kent

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Stephen Voller
As I understand things, the DVLA 'is a Quango'
Maybe the Government should allow the DVLA to have dedicated staff to deal with things properly... oh wait, that's what we used to have before Local Vehicle Licensing Offices were scrapped and successive cutbacks brought in!


The cutbacks should represent an opportunity for vehicle clubs to offer to take control of classic, vintage etc. vehicle registration issues.

We have an odd "half way house" situation at the moment with people (who know about the particular genre of vehicle) on the V765 list are advising people at DVLA who are completely ignorant as regards old vehicles, but who are the ones who are making binding (and occasionally perverse) decisions.

If clubs and individuals who are on the V765 list were able to charge a reasonable fee to the owner for a legally binding authentication (or not) of a vehicle, this would both lower the administration cost to DVLA and would deliver a more transparent and equitable system to enthusiasts than we have now. IMO, this is what the FBHVC could usefully be arguing for with the government to permanently fix this issue.

Location: N W Kent

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I didn't realise there was a block on it, sorry. The same info is available elsewhere on t'interweb,I'll see if I can find a link...

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

The link works fine for me so I don't think it's "blocked"

Location: NE Peak Corner

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

At this stage I can see nothing that helps those who say, have complete set of mechanicals I.E complete vehicle minus the body, but with no registration who intend to restore said vehicle remains to original condition and who also intend to add a body constructed using traditional body making skills.
That is unless you go down the reconstructed classics route - it is unclear how your application would be treated or whether you could get a period registration number.

''15. Rebodied(P) Q:Where a replacement body (under 25 years old) is used, can a vehicle still be considered under the scheme?

answer: A reconstructed classic must be built from a collection of all genuine period parts, over 25 years old.
This includes the body, which must be appropriate to the vehicle.

A vehicle built from a mix of old and new parts is not acceptable.

DVLA comment: Initial discussions underway with the Federation of British
Historic Vehicle Clubs.''



DVLA were also asked to give a list of definitions:

''16 Definitions(P) -Could definitions be provided for rebuilt, restored and repaired vehicles?

-Clubs asked for definitions of each of the terms in order to ensure correct
terminology is used on the applications.

DVLA answer: This will be considered, however, it should be noted that there is difficulty in providing definitions as they depend on the nature of the work carried out.''

Surely without some sort of guidance/definitions then it's impossible to judge or make an application?

So while it is being discussed, there is nothing confirmed and nothing new since 23/09/15.
Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

This business could go on longer than the Dilnot Report.

Location: Sheffield

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

'This business could go on longer than the Dilnot Report.'

At that rate I may have to down the two bare seats and no bodywork route....
Yikes!
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

“DVLA answer: This will be considered, however, it should be noted that there is difficulty in providing definitions as they depend on the nature of the work carried out.''

In the spring of 1986, Miss Whizzlong and I found ourselves in the foyer of the Department of Trade’s headquarters in Victoria St, London, as part of a planning committee.
The bicentennial of The Board of Trade was just round the corner and a bit of a beano was on the cards; HM was to unveil a plaque, Paul Channon (then Secretary of State for Trade & Industry) would say a few words following which we’d all fall on the crisps and pop.
There were 7 people arranged in a semi-circle in the foyer with Channon at one end and me at the other. The question was asked, ‘What colour should the foyer’s celebratory curtains be?’ and in a scene worthy of ‘Yes Minister’, Paul Channon consulted briefly with his aide, his aide turned to the Head of Management, the Head of Management turned to his secretary who turned to the commissioning architect, who looked at Miss Whizzlong and she turned to me.
‘Gold’.
A murmur of approval rippled its way back to the Minister.

If the DVLA would just admit that they’re out of their depth and devolve the responsibility of historic vehicles to an independent body, then things will move forward.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel


If the DVLA would just admit that they’re out of their depth and devolve the responsibility of historic vehicles to an independent body, then things will move forward.


They did devolve a chunk of oversight and some very dubious and some entirely new cars turned up on the road.

You can't blame them for being mistrusting,

Charles

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Spot on Charles.
It would be interesting to know if that ‘chunk of oversight’ was officially sanctioned and if so, how? Such a mechanism could be cited as a precedent for change.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Chris Garner writes:

R,

Further to the on going discussions on the Friends' Forum if you think pertinent could / would you place the enclosed attachments on there please? It may fill in a few gaps and of course keep the readers informed.

Regards

Chris


https://gordonenglandregister.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/progress-report-9-11-15.pdf

https://gordonenglandregister.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/information-attachment.pdf

https://gordonenglandregister.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/rc-built-up-vehicle-report-hve.pdf

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Thanks for posting that Ruairidh, most helpful.

Location: Ripon

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Chris is the one to thank Duncan, I am just the messenger...

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Thank you Chris for the documents.

Chilling reading; the DVLA are going all out to kill off Special building.

I'm sure some people will be clapping their hands with glee but I think most would recognise the wider implications of the DVLA’s new posture regarding historic and classic vehicles.
I have written yet again to Sir Greg Knight with some comments on the Progress Report.

The All Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group is next meeting on the 10th February and, if you have some thoughts on the contents of these documents, it might be worthwhile contacting the Group by email at thomasml@parliament.uk

If we don’t make a noise about this, we can blame only ourselves for whatever constraints are put on our enjoyments in the future.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

"Legally registered 1927 Bugatti" http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121887307337?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Note the charming sales patter! I am now awaiting the arrival of the constabulary.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Comments from the sales blurb:-"I DO NOT NEED ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE VEHICLE FROM HISTORIANS . UNWANTED MESSAGES ARE NOW ILLEGAL AND WILL BE FORWARDED TO THE POLICE AS I'M SICK OF EBAY ANORAKS AND RATHER THAN PUNCH YOU IN YOUR TEENAGE HEAD I WILL JUST LET YOU RING YOUR MUM WHEN EBAY BAN YOU AND THE COPS PLAY WITH YOU IN A CELL."
Quite unpleasant.
Dave.

Location: "Sheffield, call centre city"

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Dave Wortley
AND THE COPS PLAY WITH YOU IN A CELL."
Quite unpleasant.
Dave.


cops play with you in a cell dave? i didnt think they were allowed to do that any more.

or do you mean cards?

tony

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Tony,
I think he/she is trying to be amusing but to me it sounds crass.Not a nice way to sell anything.
Dave.

Location: "Sheffield, call centre city"

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

The vendor sounds like a real charmer!
Registered as 1927 Bugatti on a V5c!
What I want to know is how the hell can it get a V5 as a period car when the DVLA are giving us such a hard time over registering legitimate original or rebodied vehicles?

Nigel, I've emailed the Historic Vehicle Group as you suggested re our current problems with the DVLA - hopefully it will do some good somehow.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I think it’s worth mentioning...

FBHVC Newsletter 2013. Re: The Charter of Turin.

‘Some, who have failed to grasp the political significance of this important development have sought to portray the charter as an example of officialdom constraining the use and preservation of historic vehicles. Nothing could be further from the truth’.

Re: FBHVC Newsletter 2015. Re: DVLA Policy Changes.

‘Discussions on our unhappiness at what is happening have continued without much success until now. […] If we get anywhere with this approach we will clearly be asking what public interest is served by this new obsession with originality where it was previously not required’.

Who failed to grasp what, couldn’t be clearer.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Stephen Voller
What I want to know is how the hell can it get a V5 as a period car when the DVLA are giving us such a hard time over registering legitimate original or re-bodied vehicles?


The car will have been imported into the UK with documents from the USA saying it is a 1927 Bugatti. The DVLA accept whatever is included on documentation issued in another country without question and, thus, issued the V5. The owner has benefited from this loophole but has, probably, done nothing wrong at all having followed DVLA procedure to the letter.

Steve

Location: North Yorkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Steve Jones
Stephen Voller
What I want to know is how the hell can it get a V5 as a period car when the DVLA are giving us such a hard time over registering legitimate original or re-bodied vehicles?


The car will have been imported into the UK with documents from the USA saying it is a 1927 Bugatti. The DVLA accept whatever is included on documentation issued in another country without question and, thus, issued the V5. The owner has benefited from this loophole but has, probably, done nothing wrong at all having followed DVLA procedure to the letter.

Steve



I contacted the seller and this appears to be exactly what has happened.

The authorities in California are, apparently, quite happy to register a re-bodied 1967 VW Beetle as a 1927 Bugatti. On import to the UK it appears that DVLA accept the US paperwork with no further questions asked.

All perfectly legit, but an absolutely crazy loophole given what now seems to be demanded of a "native" special!

Perhaps a return trip to the US with a large container is in order!

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Hi Steve,
that's pretty much what I surmised.
Doesn't help that DVLA no longer have adequately trained and knoweledgable staff.
Having worked for another government Quango involving rules and regulations, the making thereof and implementation of same, -seeing the current DVLA half ars*d we'll make it up as we go along approach doesn't inspire me with confidence.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Martin Prior


I contacted the seller and this appears to be exactly what has happened.

The authorities in California are, apparently, quite happy to register a re-bodied 1967 VW Beetle as a 1927 Bugatti. On import to the UK it appears that DVLA accept the US paperwork with no further questions asked.

All perfectly legit, but an absolutely crazy loophole given what now seems to be demanded of a "native" special!

Perhaps a return trip to the US with a large container is in order!


Martin, I trust you won't get a visit from 'da boys' as a result!
- wonder how many you could get in a container!!
Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

In a reverse to a recent situation, we colonials sit in startled wonder at the UK's historic car groups ongoing discussions with the DVLA (and I thought VicRoads was a weird name)

Look at the length of this series of Forum postings !

This rather bizarre story-

"The car will have been imported into the UK with documents from the USA saying it is a 1927 Bugatti. The DVLA accept whatever is included on documentation issued in another country without question and, thus, issued the V5. The owner has benefited from this loophole but has, probably, done nothing wrong at all having followed DVLA procedure to the letter."

must surely give some ammunition to point up the stupidity in the DVLA's approach to the recent decisions regarding rebuilt Austin Sevens.

But what would a colonial know

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

before all you guys start booking your shipping containers, remember all those 'Pur Sangs' that were imported into the UK and accepted to be registered as Bugattis, are now getting letters. Our tasty mate with the VW will likely get one as well!

Location: oz

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

squeak
before all you guys start booking your shipping containers, remember all those 'Pur Sangs' that were imported into the UK and accepted to be registered as Bugattis, are now getting letters. Our tasty mate with the VW will likely get one as well!


SQUEAK Your facts are wrong there is only 4 yes 4 Pur Sang Bugatti's registered in the UK the other Bugatti's who received letters from DVLA (170 in total) are UK manufactured and registered with a BC number issued by the BOC.
There is more Pur Sang cars officially registered in Australia than in the UK.

Location: East Sussex

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Liam McDermott
squeak
before all you guys start booking your shipping containers, remember all those 'Pur Sangs' that were imported into the UK and accepted to be registered as Bugattis, are now getting letters. Our tasty mate with the VW will likely get one as well!


SQUEAK Your facts are wrong there is only 4 yes 4 Pur Sang Bugatti's registered in the UK the other Bugatti's who received letters from DVLA (170 in total) are UK manufactured and registered with a BC number issued by the BOC.
There is more Pur Sang cars officially registered in Australia than in the UK.



But Liam, those are the ones that we know about. How many "Bugattis" (and others) have been imported into the UK without questions being asked, on the strength of paperwork generated by a foreign licensing authority? We simply don't and probably can't know.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

You could try an FOI (Freedom of Inforamtion) request from DVLA. They should be able to extract that detail from their database.

Location: NE Peak Corner

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Liam McDermott
squeak
before all you guys start booking your shipping containers, remember all those 'Pur Sangs' that were imported into the UK and accepted to be registered as Bugattis, are now getting letters. Our tasty mate with the VW will likely get one as well!


SQUEAK Your facts are wrong there is only 4 yes 4 Pur Sang Bugatti's registered in the UK the other Bugatti's who received letters from DVLA (170 in total) are UK manufactured and registered with a BC number issued by the BOC.
There is more Pur Sang cars officially registered in Australia than in the UK.


My limited understanding was that the suspect "Bugatti's" were UK assembled from imported parts. Start with one original car and strip it, use the chassis to build one car, the engine to build the second and so on. The DVLA thought the BOC knew as much and went ahead anyway giving out BS numbers, probably for a small admin charge. I guess the reason there are more registered Pur Sang cars in Australia than in the UK is that they didn't get away with it in OZ or didn't want to.

If it's true that we are witnessing the death of special building then it's a very sad day. I hate to see an original car get chopped up to be turned into a special, something to prevent that happening would be a good thing. On the other hand a lot of good spares are still turning up that might now never be of any use again and that is criminal. Thank the Gods I decided not to re-body my special.

Location: Eye on the Norfolk / Suffolk border

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Fascinating that with all the hoo haa going on with the DVLA, the latest edition of the FBHVC News carries a four page article on the British Motor Heritage - manufacturers of replace bodies for makes such as the Mini, MGB etc.

Location: Melton Mowbray

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Chris Garner
Fascinating that with all the hoo haa going on with the DVLA, the latest edition of the FBHVC News carries a four page article on the British Motor Heritage - manufacturers of replace bodies for makes such as the Mini, MGB etc.


Have owners of any MGB or other re shelled cars received letters from the DVLA. Seems daft if their stance is not the same with these cars as it would be for a re-bodied vintage?

Location: Auckland NZ

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

'If it's true that we are witnessing the death of special building then it's a very sad day'.

It's even sadder if we just stand by and watch it happen!

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Chris Garner
Fascinating that with all the hoo haa going on with the DVLA, the latest edition of the FBHVC News carries a four page article on the British Motor Heritage - manufacturers of replace bodies for makes such as the Mini, MGB etc.


Daft as it might seem Chris, the situation here is slightly different.

If you have a rotten MGB or whatever and purchase a replacement, new bodyshell from the 'original manufacturer' (and can produce a receipt from them to prove that you have) then you can build the running gear of your rotten car into the new shell and keep the registration number and VIN number of the original car. For these purposes, BMH are considered to be the 'original manufacturer' (they hold the Trade Marks to all the various BMC makes including Austin). However, if you build the running gear of your rotten MGB or whatever into a second hand, original, bodyshell then you fall foul of the Q plate, IVA, new VIN number business.

If I was a cynic, I might think that their was a significance to BMH being based in Witney in Oxfordshire - given who their MP is.......!

Steve

Location: North Yorkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I could be wrong here, but as I understand it at under the rules at the present time, if you have a vehicle that has a current V5C you are able to fit a replacement body different from the original to the unmodified chassis. The DVLA are informed by using the V627/1 form, the vehicles name must be changed as it no longer resembles the original, but it will retain its original registration number and historic status and will have to be inspected.

This information comes from Ribble Kits http://www.sammio.co.uk/images/Ribble.pdf
Who supply glass fibre bodies for Triumph Herald type chassis and class it as a classic re-body and not a kit rebuild. If this information is correct it should be fairly easy to register an A7 special with a current V5C.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

As far as I can interpret the DVLA's policy,there is no problem whatsoever in creating a special from a complete vehicle with a current registration; equally there should be no problem in obtaining an age-related plate for an unrecorded vehicle, as long as you can supply suitable evidence of the vehicle's original identity in the form of the buff or green Registration Document.

The problem we now have is the resurrection or reconstruction from an original chassis frame and components from other origins which the DVLA term as a reconstructed classic. Even though the chassis has always been considered the basic unit of the vehicle, and in the case of the Austin Seven the frame can be readily dated from its number, DVLA are now no longer accepting that as being evidence of the age of the special.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Unless I’m missing some fundamental point, parts of the Progress Report posted by Chris Garner headed ‘V765 Scheme’ and ‘Reconstructed Classics’, seem to me to be contrary to Phil’s and Mike’s interpretations of the maybe/maybe not, rules.
In particular, sections 8, 9 and 15 together are something that Joseph Heller might have been proud of and, equally imaginative, under the heading of Progress, ‘Initial discussions underway with the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs’!
In 2006, I finished my A7 Special and took it to the local DVLA offices for inspection. The 8-point system was applied and a tax disc awarded. I have written to Sir Greg Knight urging him to argue with the utmost vigour for the system’s ‘complete, unaltered and unambiguous reinstatement’.
Only then will Special builders know where we stand.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I saw this Big Seven looking sorry for itself and on reading the advert it would seem that we are returning to the problems that we used to have in that even given the evidence, the DVLA are refusing to play ball. If we can't even return genuine original cars to the road then we really do have a big problem. Effectively, our hobby could be frozen in time with no more old cars being rescued and restored. Is that a fair assessment?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1937-Austin-Big-Seven-Original-Restoration-or-Pre-War-Racer-Project-RARE-/111902058518?hash=item1a0de1e816:g:s9cAAOSwHQ9Wbttz

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

They don't say if they went through the procedure of having an appropriate club official verify the authenticity of the car which would be necessary under the current rules, since the demise of the Local Vehicle Licensing Offices who would have done the inspection previously.
I suspect they didn't and tried to do it solo.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

With reference to the Big Seven mentioned by Ray, has it not always been the case that an MOT was required before a "lost" registration could be re-activated, or an age-related one issued? This particular car is highly unlikely to ever get one!

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Martin Prior
With reference to the Big Seven mentioned by Ray, has it not always been the case that an MOT was required before a "lost" registration could be re-activated, or an age-related one issued? This particular car is highly unlikely to ever get one!


Well... I know this bloke who knows another bloke who's mate does M.O.T.s ...

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

'has it not always been the case that an MOT was required before a "lost" registration could be re-activated'

Nope, when I got my Austin 10 Lichfield's original registration re-issued to me circa 1980, I had the car inspected by on officer from Brighton LVLO and had to hand over the old buff logbook and once verified the original reg was was re-issued on a V5.
Things aren't the same now obviously.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I went into my local DVLA office before they all shut to try to get my car's number back. I found them very helpful, took my Norfolk club dating cert, period pics and buff log book, they photocopied them and sent them off. Two weeks later V5c drops through the door, ahh the good ol days. No need for an mot to apply for the V5 but once issued it stays dormant until the car is mot'd.

Location: Eye on the Norfolk / Suffolk border

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

From one of the Facebook Austin 7 special groups.


interesting one today my friends special had ruby on log book so as he heard new rules that if body type is not the same as what the car is he decided to chat to them and find out what to do ,there straight away took original old number of car and has to be q plate ,mot and taxed really bad but seems no special will be save unless it has tourer specail or two seater on log book


Seems best to let sleeping dogs lie at the moment.

Location: Buxted

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I missed reading this bit in FBHVC News issue 1,2016 until just now.

"I have to report that the first approach by the All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group (APPHVG) to Government has not achieved very positive results. Following the presentation of our arguments in a meeting with the Minister, Mr Andrew Jones MP by the APPHVG chairman, Sir Greg Knight, and our chairman David Whale, the only response has been that: “The policy has not changed”. While this comment was made during a speech and so was accompanied by no detail, we understand Mr Jones is writing to Sir Greg, which might mean we get more clarity on the reasons why DVLA consider this to be the case. We do not doubt that Sir Greg will wish to take the matter further and we will be working out how best to support him.

Meanwhile we can only say to those with projects which now appear to be at risk because of changed bodywork styles that they ought not to despair, but on the other hand would probably be best to be patient and not to put forward applications for the next little while, as things might well get a little better."

This was published a number of weeks ago now.

So what's the latest?
Can we expect a happy conclusion to this fiasco soon or will it carry on interminably?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

We can expect nothing if we do nothing.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Hi Nigel,
do we know when we will hear what happened as a result of the 'All Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group' meeting held on the 10th February?
I seem to remember around the end of Feb was mentioned somewhere or is my memory playing tricks?!
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Hello Steve, I'm still waiting for a reply to my last letter to Sir Greg. I've no idea what the agenda was for their last meeting but I would hope that ours and anyone else's comments would have been discussed. As soon as I hear, you'll hear.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I’ve heard today from Sir Greg who writes,

‘I am having a number of discussions with Ministers about the current attitude of the DVLA […]
Ministers do appear to be both interested and willing to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion […]
I will do what I can!’

Here’s something from Martin Luther King Jr (perhaps a shade melodramatic but nevertheless topical):

‘The saving of our world from pending doom will come not from the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority but from the creative maladjustment of a non-conforming minority.'

Special builders and Ministers take note.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I quite like the idea of being creatively maladjusted

Location: Kent

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