How many Cozette supercharged cars did the factory make?

Figures suggest up to maybe 300 "Ulsters" but how many of those were blown? And how many non "Ulster" (Super Sports) Cozette blown cars?

C

From the surviving ledgers.

"Supersports" type.
A8 there are 15 cars, all supercharged.

EA type,
B1 there are 64 cars, 18 specifically supercharged = 28.1%
B3 there are 38 cars, 11 specifically supercharged = 28.9%

Not sure about the 'up to maybe 300', but if so it was probably about 86 supercharged.

I thought the real figure for EA sports production was around 185 ?
25-30% blown ? Sounds right.
Stuart Ulph may be able to answer the question.

I suspect that no one can answer the question, Dave, but I can give some reasonably reliable info. The highest "body number" on a production car which I have witnessed personally (ie the one on the transmission tunnel and stamped under the hatch) is 169. The highest of these numbers I have been told of is 185.
I don't know if this series of numbers started with the EA body shape but I suggest that it might have started with the Super Sports.

I am inclined to guess at a total production figure nearer 200 than 300.

As to what proportion were blown, Henry's figures are a good basis for a guess of circa 1/3 blown. I will remark that the "for sale" columns of the "Light Car" show a higher proportion of blown cars for sale than you might predict. Of course it may be people were more likely to part with a car that was more expensive to run. Also I must say anecdotally that I have seen rather more surviving blown crankcases than unblown but that might just reflect my interests.
I edge towards the idea of maybe 40% of the production blown? Still not so far from 1/3 and again maybe 75 or so cars.

Always ready to reconsider in the light of other evidence!
Regards, Stuart

As B2 and B4 ledgers are missing, we can only quess.

I'm told the B4 production is less than B3.

So to stick a pin in a number, around 160. 1/3 blown.

Again if anyone has any history on JJ 5855 I'd love to here it.

A lovely story, by pure chance. A customer ( dale blockley ) sent me a couple of pics of cars he owner in the 1960s. The first car he ever owned a little chummy. And a picture of the blown Ulster he is trying to recreate today.

The pure chance bit is the blown Ulster he owned in the 1960s is JJ 5855.

Thanks dale.

Tony.

Location: HUNCOTE on the pig

If sales patterns in the 1930s were anything like they are now, if there were 64 B1 cars, I'd expect about 50 B2s. This would tie in with the 38 B3s and again a guess at 20 B4s. No justification for this other than its the way I'd expect the sales pattern of a new car to go today. You always sell more at introduction and it tails off.
This hypothesis indicates something like 170 to 180 cars in total.

The earliest EA with Car number and early body number is B 9757 with body 27
The latest car that I know of is B5 875 fitted with body EA 176

Perhaps less than 200?

But what is the survival rate of known cars blown/unblown?

I doubt anyone will ever get near an answer to the question. To further complicate things, the production list Henry sent me a while back apparently does not include the known Ulsters and Supersports (albeit most with Oz-built bodies) that came here during the period. Some were blown, some not, and there was even a current Chummy running around here in 1930-1 fitted with an Ulster engine (I have a photo). Not even Waite's blown AGP winner, nor Dickason's special blown motor that Pa Austin sent out for the 1931 AGP, seem to get a mention on Henry's list. This in turn prompts me to ask about New Zealand, Sth Africa, Canada, USA, Europe - was it the same with them? How many pies to a bottle of sauce? Cheers, Bill in Oz

Location: Down Under

I would agree with the numbers that Stuart and Henry are suggesting for English 'Ulsters', but as Bill suggests, perhaps there are further options - didn't both Rosengart and Dixi built Sports based on the the 'Ulster'? It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to suggest there could have been something like 50 each which brings us to the other quoted total of around 300 ...

I do not believe that there is evidence for more than a very small handful which came to NZ, I stand to be corrected but from what I have gleaned less than a dozen, probably only half that.

Location: Auckland NZ

Thanks all.
So the evidence and consensus points towards about 185 overall and maybe 60 blown.

Since blown cars fell out of favour fairly quickly because the blowers were fussy (especially about lubrication) and that the post-war 750 formula outlawed them, I can imagine that unblown cars or engines led a longer and harder life (leading to a greater chance of catastrophic destruction). The needy blown crankcases complete with their unreliable magnetos probably gathered dust until Stuart collected them (If you are swimming in them Stuart I'll gladly help you out....)

Now to Cozette supercharger numbers.
Number 4 Cozette's were all individually numbered and prefaced with "X4". I know of:

X4 221
X4 233
X4 252
X4 253

Anybody know any others, especially higher and lower numbers?
Contrary to some opinions I haven't been collecting these numbers like a chap at the end of Kings Cross station. I am interested in knowing the range as another indicator of volume. Of course in service replacements may extend the numbers but they weren't cheap superchargers and won't have been thrown away easily.

Charles

They must have made a few more,mine is x4-285
I think they must have worn pretty badly,especially the pin/internal petal? drive judging by the bits I've seen,and being very mechanical vibrated the end nuts/pump off.

So that makes the range at least 64.
Not sure what French cars used Cozette No4. I'll check.
I think that the Cozette company went bust in 1932 or 33 so my assumption is that the large flume of Hyper LeaF's (180) and smaller volume of Ulsters kept them solvent. When they stopped being made the game was up.....

Along with Lagonda, Salmson,Amilcar and the odd Frazer Nash.

Lagonda used them for a bit and then swapped to Zoller.
Frazer Nash didn't make many Cozette blown cars as I reacll (must check)
No idea of the Salmson/Amilcar volumes. I assume they used No7 blowers

Charle

Don't forget the Triumph Super Seven, probably also fitted with a number 4.

Location: Deepest darkest Kent.

Well it seems that they weren't cheap, even in the day. Though if you ordered fifty you got a reasonable discount.

I note there is no number 5 Cozette available.
Simon

Location: Comber County Down

Quote Charles P

" Now to Cozette supercharger numbers.
Number 4 Cozette's were all individually numbered and prefaced with "X4". I know of:

X4 221
X4 233
X4 252
X4 253

Anybody know any others, especially higher and lower numbers?
Contrary to some opinions I haven't been collecting these numbers like a chap at the end of Kings Cross station. I am interested in knowing the range as another indicator of volume. Of course in service replacements may extend the numbers but they weren't cheap superchargers and won't have been thrown away easily. "


Charles I had a look on the end flanges of the body today and no numbers. Where can I find these numbers on the number 4 cozette body, are they on the inlet or outlet flanges, or perhaps the end plates. Some advice please before I do some more paint scraping? thanks Russell

Location: oz

I think the Cozette 5 is a modern repro. There is no mention of a 5 in the catalogue.

Pic of original 4 showing serial number.....

Thanks Henry that's exactly the information I was seeking. Sadly that's where I looked and no number, only the raised cast letters. Do you know who is manufacturing the inlet and outlet manifold castings? cheers Russell

Location: oz

Contact me,I can help.
Were the superchargers painted black originally?
Didn't someone mention on here that they spoke with Frank Delaney of Delaney Gallay (Who raced a Lea Francis into his 90's)radiator manufacturers,and importers of Cozettes who stated that Austins had at least 2 of the no 5's.

thanks Dave , I will

Location: oz

I don't think Austins used other superchargers at that time.The very last deep sump 10 stud crankcases had 3 bosses for supercharger mounts.For the longer bodied no 5?

So they are mid 1931 onwards.

How many of those crankcases has anyone seen?
Any photos?

Thanks

Charles

No pictures of the crankcases, but we can probably all think of one known works engine which has bosses set for a 5. Some of the spec for a 5 here..

Re the question of whether other than No.4s were fitted -- Be mindful, Folks, that the Sales Brochure for the 1930-31 type Ulster says under the Specifications :- "A larger size, or other type supercharger may be fitted if required, at an extra charge".

Location: Down Under

I took me a while to dig it out but heres another Cozette number for your list X4 214, this came from a Super Sports.

Location: Auckland NZ

I wonder if it was possible to fit any other available supercharger,the limiting factor being the distance between the gear drive centre and the side of the crankcase.Even the Cozette only just fits.

Yes, Bill. I think it's pretty clear that Type 5 Cozettes were fitted by Austin, but the number made is likely to have been very small. I think most people believe that it was available through special order only, and perhaps fitted only to works engines.

Ian

Very helpful
So we have a supersports at 214 and the last we've heard of at 285
My hunch is that Cozette used the number range starting at 200 so we have less than 100 No4's made.

The No5 insight is interesting. It's odd in size and doesn't fit in the capacity steps of the normal Cozette range. It is clearly an oddball designed for narrow spaces otherwise you'd use the No 6 which would breathe better (long thin blowers with ports in the middle are far from ideal)

Charles

David Howes engine, with Cozette 5. Brooklands, June 2007




Early 8 stud supercharged engine with Cozette 4

I think it was David Howes engine I saw with the 3 bosses,Ex Williams engine I think.
Perhaps some of our more elusive sports owners will share photos of their special engines ?

Now wouldn't that be nice.


Charles

I notice the Cozette No5 has modern typeface stampings. Unlike the typeface on the No posted earlier

It is a Replica?

Yes

For the History buffs - the "early" engine & blower set-up, shown in Henry's black & white photo, is of the first example of the Super Sports of late 1927 (including Waite's 1928 AGP car). It was first offered for sale to the public in July 1928 - four months after Waite's win. And a bit early to call them Ulsters! (For those who don't know, the '28, '29 & '30 AGPs went to the fastest time, not a handicap as many think). Cheers, Bill in Oz

Location: Down Under