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Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

As predicted here and elsewhere, we are being led by the nose into a situation where the definition of "historic vehicle" is laid down by the E.U. in accordance with the Charter of Turin.

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Would someone who has precise knowledge of these matters care to explain the route that a "rank and file" club member needs to traverse to elicit information from high level discussions/decisions being made on our behalf. For example the PWA7C has a committee and officers who one would expect to be kept informed by the FBHVC (or are there others as well as FBHVC?)regularly of all matters of concern to the old vehicle movement. This is then passed down to the r and f member. Since this DVLA business started about a year ago there have been many rumours,much speculation,especially on our "Friends" website but very few facts and from what I have seen this is not the fault of said committee and officers. I realise that all the above committee and officers do this job for no payment and entirely out of enthusiasm for old cars.
So do clubs pay the FBHVC and if so how much and wouldn't that entitle us to a decent level of service from them as far as reporting back or am I being too naive?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I think I'm right that the rate paid by a club for membership is about 40p per member. That doesn't sound a lot until you work out that for a large club like PWA7C that's almost 500 quid a year. All the more reason that we should be demanding better consideration than we get. Personally I think FBHVC take us for a ride.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Dave Wortley
For example the PWA7C has a committee and officers who one would expect to be kept informed by the FBHVC (or are there others as well as FBHVC?)regularly of all matters of concern to the old vehicle movement. This is then passed down to the r and f member.
'edit'
So do clubs pay the FBHVC and if so how much and wouldn't that entitle us to a decent level of service from them as far as reporting back or am I being too naive?
Dave.


Yes you would expect things to work that way.
But it seems everything is behind closed doors and soooo slooow that you have to wonder if anything is really being done, even if we are told to be reassured that it is.
As you suggest, as far as I know clubs pay a subscription to the FHBVC, who are supposed to advise/ update club board members but we haven't seen much of that too date.

It also worries me that so much is riding on only one major body.
I currently belong to 3 major car clubs or 4 if you include the affiliation to the Austin Seven Clubs Association.
As far as I can tell everyone at club level including senior members are as clueless as each other.
Surely this can't be right when such a major issue is involved.

This is also why I hope that MP's are involved in lobbying and that the Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Club may have some influence with the powers that be.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

We could soon find ourselves being restricted by EU regulations on old and historic vehicles, and they would appear to be more concerned about air quality than history as well as any thing the DVLA may wish to introduce on top.

The thing that does not get mentioned anywhere is that an old or historic vehicle may pollute the air more than a modern but when you take into account the pollution caused by manufacturing,shipping, scrapping and recycling several new cars to replace that vehicle over the years the older vehicle becomes quite environmentally friendly.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Too many regulations, too many jobsworths.

Location: The Centre of the Universe

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Phil Kingdom

The thing that does not get mentioned anywhere is that an old or historic vehicle may pollute the air more than a modern but when you take into account the pollution caused by manufacturing,shipping, scrapping and recycling several new cars to replace that vehicle over the years the older vehicle becomes quite environmentally friendly.


Not sure that's true.

What comes out is directly related to what goes in, lets say an A7 does 25 mpg, that's still better than some modern cars, (I just looked up Range Rover for instance - official MPG for the petrol version is 20.5mpg!)

Location: Buxted

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Austin Harris



What comes out is directly related to what goes in, lets say an A7 does 25 mpg, that's still better than some modern cars, (I just looked up Range Rover for instance - official MPG for the petrol version is 20.5mpg!)


In Their dreams A 4.6 P38 Range Rover will get 15 MPG if you are lucky. That's why many have converted to LPG.

The Mk111 is even worse. It's even bigger and heavier than earlier versions.

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

In my capacity as VC of the A7CA and Chair of the PWA7C, I think a brief response to the comments made by Dave Wortley and Stephen Voller is in order.

We agree, and sympathise with, many of these views and comments; our Committees being as concerned as everyone is and trying our best to liaise and lobby the necessary bodies. I personally have communicated with the two MPs mentioned previously but was directed back to the DVLA. As you are aware I published the latest " edict " from the DVLA recently but have heard nothing more officially, despite trying. There are many comments floating about, many of which I would describe as spurious, and I am loathe to pass these on. Our Pre War Authentication Officer, Peter Rowlands, is working hard but is very frustrated and embarrassed at having to be the bearer of bad news to our members. We are seeing changes in the DVLA but these only seem to be increased questions and paperwork.
The Association did its best to attend the meeting at Swansea last year as the official body representing the thousands of owners, but were not selected. The whole situation seems to have stalled but we are being proactive as far as we can and monitoring the whole sorry saga constantly. Personally, and maybe pessimistically, I think our Masters will have other things on their minds leading up to the referendum, to bother about us and our plight!

Chris Garner

Location: Melton Mowbray

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Chris,
Thanks for putting forward your thoughts. We special builders are going to be in limbo for a while yet possibly.
Cheers,
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Hi Chris,
May I also thank you for your response.
I do appreciate that club officials are doing what they can and that they are having an embarrassing time dealing with faceless officialdom.
I don't think the DVLA are giving club officials the level of respect that they deserve.

If you've managed to wade through this whole thread you will have seen that I worked for a government QUANGO in the NHS and have seen how these things work behind the scenes.

I think this means I'm taking the whole situation rather personally as I've seen how a major arms length government body can ride roughshod over those they seek to legislate over, in my then employers case it was NHS dentists and all in the name of cutting costs.

Whilst I agree that Whitehall will be busy with the In/Out vote, the DVLA will still be pushing on with their agenda regardless, as this is how these departments work.

My Austin 2 seater doesn't have a registration as lack of funds, life, health and a mortgage got in the way and it's only since last October that I was able to resume working on my dream car.
It was only then that I discovered the current debacle.

I partially console myself that if the worst comes to the worst, because the project was so long term (beginning 1983) I can recoup most of my outlays by selling it off piecemeal, but that will still leave my goal of restoration and driving the finished vehicle unfulfilled - but such is life.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Make no mistake, our historic vehicle world is being lured onto the rocks.

In 2013, The Charter of Turin was ratified by a bunch of people most of us have never heard of and the FBHVC hailed this as a triumph of good sense.
Well, as Senior Vice-President of FIVA at the time and latterly, Head of the FIA’s Commission Historique Internationale Legislation Working Party happened to be no other than David Whale, current Chairman of the FBHVC, the Federation’s rather nebulous position in the present crisis comes as no surprise.
David Whale’s ‘holistic’ approach to the ‘wider ranging global status of historic vehicles’ (in other words a ‘fits-all’ solution) dovetails neatly with the DVLA's new position and is precisely what the historic vehicle movement in this country doesn’t need.

We are being hood-winked by the FBHVC; their support for the Charter of Turin and its restrictive formula for historic vehicles is unequivocal and their complaint about the DVLA’s ‘obsession with originality’ is a complete smoke-screen.

Follow the wrecker’s lights at your peril.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I understand that if the E.U. referendum results in Britain leaving, it will take a minimum of two years - and probably a lot longer - for this country to extract itself from the numerous treaties that we are signed up to. Plenty of time for the DVLA to adopt the E.U. formula as a permanent policy.

...or am I being pessimistic again?

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

As there seems to be quite wide variations in the regulations in France, Germany, Belgium and Holland I cannot see how anyone can believe we are to be subjected to "EU rules". If we are, how come no EU member country has the same identical regulations rather than individual nations doing their own thing based on their historic national traffic regulations?
It would appear that much of this "discussion" forms part of the constant drip-feed of poison as has been stock "straight bananas, ban 8 year-olds from inflating balloons " propaganda from the likes of the Daily Mail.
If people are prepared to make their decisions on such an ill-informed basis, heaven help us!

Location: Ripon

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Re the issue with DVLA has anyone / club thought of raising an e petition to have the issue raised in the Westminster it appears to be a straight forward process, 6 signatures to start the process get over 100,000 and it should be debated. Clearly there would need to be a clear issue and resolution required and not just a moan against DVLA. More info in the link below.

http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/sign-a-petition/e-petitions/

Just a though as I am sure there are enough people to sign the petition and we may get some resolution before we get bogged down in the EU debate.

Location: Dorset

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Duncan Grimmond
As there seems to be quite wide variations in the regulations in France, Germany, Belgium and Holland I cannot see how anyone can believe we are to be subjected to "EU rules". If we are, how come no EU member country has the same identical regulations rather than individual nations doing their own thing based on their historic national traffic regulations?
It would appear that much of this "discussion" forms part of the constant drip-feed of poison as has been stock "straight bananas, ban 8 year-olds from inflating balloons " propaganda from the likes of the Daily Mail.
If people are prepared to make their decisions on such an ill-informed basis, heaven help us!


The details of what is proposed are to be found in the Charter of Turin. Goodness knows what our Government has signed us up to? It is the ambition of the E.U. to "harmonise" regulations throughout Europe. The question that really matters if we are to be subjected to E.U. legislation is can it be a "directive" rather than a "regulation. At least our Government would have some say over the implementation of a directive.

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

The government’s ‘gold-plating’ of an EU directive is no guarantee of its palatability.

The discussion about the DVLA’s new rules – or new interpretation of the old rules – is connected to the EU only in that Brussels is blamed generally for everything we care to disagree with.
The root of the problem is FIVA, its Charter of Turin and the lack of foresight of those (the FBHVC) who failed to perceive (or were pleased to ignore) the problems it would spawn for the historic and classic vehicle movement in the UK with its adoption even in part, by the DVLA.
There is no doubt that the DVLA have adopted the Charter’s definition of an historic vehicle and there is absolutely no doubt about the FBHVC’s support for the DVLA’s new regime and the Charter’s malignant content.

I would argue that Special builders have less interest in (but no less respect for) the historic status of their creations than owners of production vehicles and would likely be quite happy to forego the privileges associated with conventionally bodied historic vehicles; road tax is not a huge imposition and an MoT test, many regard as a must in any case. The DVLA have overlooked any provision for the accommodation of this class of vehicle and this wilful cultural cleansing, promoted by the insidious Charter of Turin must not go unchallenged.

There was a particularly good letter written by the late Stanley Mann in praise of Dr Clare Hay’s erudite comments on the originality of vintage Bentleys and which might be usefully applied to all vehicles that achieve Historic status. Hay concludes, ‘As far as Bentley Motors were concerned, the identity of a car is not straightforwardly a function of the chassis frame or any other major component. It is a function of continuity. Even if over time every component on a Bentley has been changed, provided it has existed throughout as a single identifiable entity it remains the original’.

Such good sense seems in very short supply.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Ref a Government petition, would somebody like to come up with appropriate wording?
All I can come up with at the moment is :-

''We request the Government to direct the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) to treat the registering of Historic vehicles that were originally built with a separate chassis (ie non unitary construction / non monocoque) that have been subsequently fitted with replacement bodywork due to the irretrievable loss or damage of the original bodywork, on an equal basis to vehicles which have still retained there original bodywork when issuing or reissuing age related registration numbers, thereby recognizing and confirming the re-registered vehicles historic status.''

Please feel free to offer alternatives.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

My only suggestion would be to use a site like Change.org in preference to the Government's site because there's too many 'maybe's' in the description - an excuse to kick everything into the long grass if it's not a Cinderella issue.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Ref a Government petition, would somebody like to come up with appropriate wording?
All I can come up with at the moment is -slightly re-worded :-

''We request the Government to direct the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) to treat the registering of Historic vehicles originally built with a separate chassis (ie non unitary construction / non monocoque)and subsequently fitted with replacement bodywork due to irretrievable loss or damage of the original bodywork, on an equal basis to vehicles still retaining the original bodywork when issuing or reissuing age related registration numbers, thereby recognizing and confirming the re-registered vehicles historic status.''

Please feel free to offer alternative wording - don't see much in the way of maybe's above?
-not totally convinced on Change.org - but am having a look.
Q:showing my ignorance here but:- how does the Government know you've put a petition on Change.Org.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Sorry Steve, I meant that there are too many ‘maybe’s’ in the government’s petition site.
I'm probably a little sceptical but, if you start a petition on a government run site, who is controlling it?

And not to pour cold water on your idea, after thinking about starting one myself, I considered the following:

1. In 2009 there were approximately 178,000 registered classic and historic vehicles in the UK.

2. In 2009 approximately 68,000 were presented for an MoT test.

3. In response to the government’s consultation on the lifting of the requirement for pre-1960 vehicles to be tested, there were 447 responses (0.66% of those presented, 0.25% of the total!).

I realise that some of these responses were collective but I would consider the show of hands pathetic considering that it was clearly an act of blatant chicanery (the removal of officially sanctioned roadworthiness) paving the way for the sort of problems we’re experiencing at the moment.

In other words, I concluded that I couldn’t rely on the support of enough people to get a petition off the ground. Apathy and the fact that most people wouldn’t put their heads above the parapet or say boo to a goose, are our biggest enemies and we hand these most effective weapons to the DVLA on a plate.
I think there’s no substitute for our individual efforts and that’s why I continue to write letters to people who I hope can make a difference if pushed hard enough.
As I say, I may be completely wrong.

Sir Greg Knight’s closing sentence in his last reply was ‘I’m doing what I can!’ The exclamation mark suggests that I’m hitting the spot :)
Good. But not yet good enough.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Steve

I have a few concerns about how such a petition might be interpreted later on (assuming successful number of signatories!).

Mainly that "due to irretrievable loss or damage of the original bodywork" could place a burden on the applicant that the body was beyond economical repair. The owner of a barn find car missing a body altogether would struggle to prove that the body was not simply removed for the purpose of building a replica sports.

Secondly "equal basis" is concerning because this may still cause problems for special builders. Even if the body were permitted as a replica, the rest of the components are from a number of different cars and would still fall into the kit car section of the rules.

I would like to see an extension of the existing rules. Replacement bodies are already permitted from the original manufacturer. If this were extended to "marque experts" then those professionals such as Roach, Yates, etc... would be able to supply bodies for replacement purposes.

The problem with my proposal is that the home special builder doesn't really meet the requirements for a marque expert - and worse, what if there is no expert for your make of car.

I'm not sure that there is a way of satisfying everybody.

Peter

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Is not the special builder, be they professional or home, part of the culture of the Austin 7 that has is existed since the very early days and certainly more than 40 years? I thought the historic vehicle movement was all about protecting the living culture, which includes the special, of historical vehicles and allowing them to continue to be maintained and driven on public roads not withstanding the modern regulations that might exclude them if applied.

If individuals are to lobby then who do they direct their representations to? Just who are the key stakeholders, how can they be contacted, and what are their objectives and how can they be influenced?

I am not a special builder just a RP owner who wants to be able to continue driving on the roads without undue restriction, but I also do think the special side of A7s is worth sticking up for.

Location: NE Peak Corner

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Thank you gentlemen,
It just goes to show that 'getting it right' is crucial and what is stated and how it is phrased is of great import.
I wouldn't want for example to disenfranchise those who create their own bodywork which is part of the great british tradition of special building.

A friend of mine Ernie Randall who is now sadly too old to actively take part, was building his own bodies from the early 1950's through to the mid to late 1990's.
They were all 2 seaters as far as I can recall, none were highly tuned as his enjoyment was rebuilding standard mechanics with the creative element of thinking up and building the body.

He said to me a good few years ago, ''I think I've had the best days of the old car world''.

Reluctantly I feel he may be right but I sincerely hope we haven't seen the end of them.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Does any one remember the Dave Gorman show, he did a piece on government petitions and it would appear that they are vetted before being presented and are not guaranteed in any way to get approval.

As it seems the FBHVC are the only people to whom the DVLA will listen too should we not be telling them exactly what clubs expect from them, and get them to present a case that will cover all angles. If the organisation that is supposed to represent us does not work for us, then its time to get a new one that will.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

David,

I've directed all my correspondence to Sir Greg Knight, Chairman of the All Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Group. Both he and the FBHVC's representatives meet with the relevant Ministers from time to time.

As you demonstrate, we're all stakeholders in this regardless of our views on Special building.

Our objective generally might be to rein in the DVLA's enthusiasm for changing the rules to suit its straitened circumstances.

My more specific objective is to have reinstated the 8-point system as was applied to my Special in 2009 in which the nature and construction of its new body was considered irrelevant for the retention of its identity.

Phil,

I couldn't agree more.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I'm totally with you on that Nigel.
It would be a major step back to normality.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel thanks, I was more thinking about what were the objectives of the "other" side. If one of the objectives of the DVLA is to live within a reduced budget, not unreasonable, then the A7 community needs to help them find alternative ways of doing this without compromising the ability to register or re-register historic vehicles. Unfortunately abuses in the past, not A7s in the main part, have, in the eyes of the DVLA and the general public, made this more difficult to achieve through a certification system relying on the various clubs.

Location: NE Peak Corner

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

As someone who is trying to rebuild/restore a 1925 car
This topic is causing a great deal of uncertainty to the Aysti 7
Community . The re-invention of Austin Sevens has been as much a part of the heritage
left by Herbert, for example all the period coach builders and the all the "special" builders
Who kept so many of these cars on the road, often on a budget in the 1950's and 60's for us and the general public to enjoy now.

How can folk who are restoring ancient buses and trucks, all with their coach built bodies,
Cope with any new draconian regime. So if you make a cab from scratch, then you cannot get a V5C.

In period many coach built cars had their bodies exchanged
Given that A7 bodies cost only £7? New at the factory And many Rolls Royce cars
Were regularly given new bodies in the 1930's and 40's.

Anyone know how the Commercisl Clubs view this Saga?

Regards

Bill

Location: Scottish Borders

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I agree Bill, At one time Rolls Royce only sold a rolling chassis, so there is no defined type of body for them, as with many commercial vehicles, in fact many company's made rolling chassis available to coachbuilders. The only important part of a vehicle like this is the driving chassis, that is the bit that is drivable and the part that is registered. If we take a newly made body and stick a box section chassis under it and fit a draw bar is not a motor car its trailer put it on an original chassis and it a motor vehicle and subject to all the relevant laws that go with it.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT MEDDLING. SAYS FBHVC
Federation fears over-rigid interpretations will wreck classic ownership
The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs has accused the UK Government of trying to railroad thousand into a hugely restrictive German style class of vehicles.
This historic sector: Vehicle of Historic Interest could restrict moderate and safe modifications being made to classics - or even force owners to return their vehicles to pre-modified and less safe condition.
In a no holds barred response to the Department for Transport's EU Roadworthiness Directive proposal the FBHBVC highlights several problems with DfT’s handling of the consultation.
In it the FBHUVC criticises the DfT for following EU Directives to the letter, and offering little to no acknowledgement of Brexit, Britain's intention to start , of leaving the EU next year The Govemment’s stance on the matter is that it needs to adhere to EU rules for now. But by the time the consultation comes into place in 2018 the UK is expected to have left the union. One of the main concerns is with modifications, as the EU Directives aren't that speci about what is considered to modified on an historic vehicle. Geoff Lancaster, the communications director for the
FBHVC, says he fears over-rigid interpretations ruining classic ownership. He says: 'There are suggestions that we might adopt the German model of very rigid specifications. But what the DfT doesn't realise is that we're very different culturally. 'In the case of modifications, from our point of view, the Government should not be arbiters of authenticity. It should only be an arbiter of road safety. Why should authorities care about authenticity? We care, clubs care, but it shouldn't affect the Government. The only issue is compliance in road safety.'
Along with classic enthusiasts in the UK, the FBHVC believes there are numerous question; on the Roadworthiness Directive that the DFT has failed to answer.
Asked by Classic Car Weekly to respond specifically to the modifications issue raised by roadworthiness testing proposals, a spokesman for the DFT says: •Classic cars are an important part of this nation's motoring heritage. It is important that enthusiasts can continue to enjoy them and that these vehicles are safe and appropriately maintained. 'We have consulted on plans to exempt vehicles over 40 years old from MOT’s. The responses are now being considered and we will respond in due course.'

www.fbhvc.co.uk
German-style historic class that could be coming to the UK
In Germany and Austria, classic cars can get an H plate -to signify it being a historic car.
Registering as an historic car gains cheaper tax and insurance; but cars have to adhere to the following stricter rules:
They must have been registered at least 30 years ago.
They must be 'mostly' in their original condition. No murals or custom paint jobs.
No modern' modifications are permitted on the vehicles.
Modifications that are allowed include changes that benefit safety or emissions.
Modifications that are in period can be allowed.

Location: Berkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

NOW THEY CALL IT CONTINUATION WHAT IS DVLA PLAYING AT?
In the CCW 23/11/16
New classic Jaguar XKSS
The first Jaguar XKSS made in 60 years has been revealed - and Jaguar will build eight more at its Special Operations Division headquarters in Coventry.
Jaguar will use chassis numbers allocated to original cars destroyed in the Browns Lane factory fire of 1957.
All nine have already been sold for £1m a piece, though. Jaguar exploited state of-the-art technology to digitally recreate the XKSS shape, which was then used as a blueprint for these continuation models. Coupled with original technical drawings, the original XKSS was recreated in every detail. The magnesium alloy body was made using a bespoke styling buck based on the original cars, while the chassis was bronze welded as it was in period. The new XKSS is powered by a 3.4-litre straight six D-type engine with a new cast iron block, new cylinder heads, triple Weber carbs and a stronger fuel cell - the latter a concession to safety. Other changes compared with the original cars are said to be 'minor'.
Tim Hannig, director of Jaguar Land Rover Classic, says: 'Our continuation XKSS reaffirms our commitment to nurture the passion and enthusiasm for Jaguar's illustrious past by offering exceptional cars, services, parts and experiences.'

Location: Berkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all


They must be 'mostly' in their original condition. No murals or custom paint jobs.
No modern' modifications are permitted on the vehicles.
Modifications that are allowed include changes that benefit safety or emissions.
Modifications that are in period can be allowed.

These rules would seem to be a bit contradictory, are they saying that as long as you have an original colour scheme you, can fit a modern more efficient and less polluting engine and transmission, change the axles and steering so as to be able to fit disc brakes with bigger wheels and tyres and also change the chassis for one with a crumple zone and seat belt fittings as all these modifications would benefit safety and emissions, and turn a historic vehicle into a hot rod, but then again the are no modern modifications allowed! But on the up side a change of body to a special would be allowed as that is a well proven and common period modification.It could also be argued that the lighter special body would make the car safer improving braking and handling characteristics. The mind boggles!

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I think it will take a court case to show the muddled thinking to be unfit for purpose. A Judge would probably throw it out if it got that far!

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

More farce than Brian Rix with half a dozen french maids, and episodes of 'Yes Minister' and 'Allo Allo' combined!

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Gentlemen , it is all just a farce , to keep the civil servants in a job . It is not designed to be efficient in any shape or form .

Merv

Location: New Forest

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Ben, What's the source of your information re the FBHVC?

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel
Ben, What's the source of your information re the FBHVC?


Hi Nigel

Classic Car Weekly 23/11/16

Location: Berkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Thanks Ben.

Accessed via the VHRA's website and well worth a read is the FBHVC's comprehensive and surprisingly robust response to the DfT's consultation on annual testing for Historic Vehicles.








Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

WOULD LOVE TO SEE IF DVLA IS GOING TO CLASSIFY THOSE NEW CONTINUATION AS HISTORIC?

NOW THE WORD FACSIMILE ACCORDING TO Denis Jenkinson HAS BEEN CHANGED TO CONTINUATION
"Facsimile"
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars, but such a situation is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from the originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built.
The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the paying public are gullible.


MANUFACTURER CONTINUATION MODELS

ASTON MARTIN DB 4 GT CONTINUATION
There will be a run of 25 models. Prices are estimated to be around £1.5m per car and the first is expected to be delivered in the third quarter of 2017. CCW understands the order book is already full.

JAGUAR XKSS
Nine models are to be built to the exact specification as those made in 1957, replacing cars lost due to the Browns Lane fire. Prices will be in excess of £1m and deliveries will start early next year.

JAGUAR LIGHT WEIGHT E-TYPE
The 'missing' six models were intended to fill the gap left by those that were never built from the intended original 18-car series from 1963. Prices were around £1.2m and cars were delivered to new owners in 2015.

Aston Martin is following the trend for continuation models by confirming it will build 25 lightweight track-only DB4 GTs.
The original car was launched in 1959 and a total of 75 were built from an intended run of 100 up until 1963. These new GTs will complete the run.
Values for the original models that still exist can exceed £3 million.
Each DB4 GT Continuation will be built by Aston Martin Works in Newport Pagnell "with a blend of old world craftsmanship and modern techniques'. The privately owned British carmaker says the continuation cars will have improved engine performance, handling, braking and safety features.
A spokesman for Aston Martin confirms more DB4 parts will be manufactured for the restoration and enthusiast market as a result of the project. He says: 'As an example, original door latches haven't been available for some time as it wasn't viable. However, we have gone back to the original supplier for this project and it will make parts for the 25 cars plus the restoration market/ Aston Martin's continuation project follows on from Jaguar building new versions of models like the Lightweight E-type and XKSS.
Graham Searle, Jaguar Enthusiasts Club (JEC) chairman, says the strong global interest in classic cars means manufacturers can now cash in on their heritage. (It is now a practical proposition because of the high values certain classics are now making. Ten years ago as they couldn't have charged enough to make it pay,' says Searle.

Location: Berkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Ben Mitchell
WOULD LOVE TO SEE IF DVLA IS GOING TO CLASSIFY THOSE NEW CONTINUATION AS HISTORIC?

NOW THE WORD FACSIMILE ACCORDING TO Denis Jenkinson HAS BEEN CHANGED TO CONTINUATION
"Facsimile"
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars


I don't see how DVLA could accept the 'new' cars as historic based on their own current criteria which won't accept original running chassis to which a replacement body has been fitted or whereby any deviation from the original mechanics is rejected.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I don't know about the other makes, but I believe the Aston Martins are intended for racing only and not road use at all, so probably would not need to get involved with a DVLA registration. Should any of these new classics? be used on the road, the V5C should show the date of its first registration, which is a bit of a giveaway to the origin of the vehicle.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Never mind chaps.
The fellow in charge at the DVLA did very well in the New Year honours.
A Knighthood I gather.

R.M.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

If any of these cars were registered for road use I wonder if they would be issued with a new car number that could then be changed to a "cherished" plate? Anyone looking on would be none the wiser?


I think that some lesser "look alike" efforts can be a generous "homage" to the original without getting silly with the price. I imagine there are a few kits that could be fun to assemble. I am thinking about the superficially accurate representations of the SS100 Jaguar and "C" type that are produced either in house or in kit form by Suffolk Sports cars. Not cheap, but well done, none the less.

http://www.suffolksportscars.com

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Hi Folks

Looks like there has been some progress between DVLA and FBHVC on the subject of appropriate replacement bodies to vehicles with original chassis, and running gear, whose old bodies are beyond repair.

See page 2 in this weeks's Classic Car Weekly! Also try www.fbhvc.co.uk

This may help those currently in limbo with A7 replica body projects but might still be tricky for "Specials" and also bring some relief to all our valued spares suppliers, whose businesses I suspect have been a bit dented by all the uncertainty over the last two years.

I hope that further clarification should become available in the next few weeks....???

Makes a pleasant change from reading about Brexit c**p and Trump.

So get out to that cold garage and get back to work on your new body on an old chassis?

Take care

Bill G

Scottish Border ( no wall here yet!)

Location: Scottish Border

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Two quotes from the Classic Car Weekly article mentioned by Bill " New guidelines suggest that the replacement body is one that could have been placed on it from the outset,or is of a style which has become associated with the marque". "The FBHVC and DVLA are to develop a valid glossary of terms to identify bodies which it will share in the future" . The latter quote is open to interpretation. Anyone got a clue about what it could mean? If it is going to be a long list we could be waiting to register our cars until Doomsday.

Location: Sheffield

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

'Sigh'

If only it wasn't taking sooooo loooonngg it's worse than watching paint dry.
On the plus side it's beginning to sound like repro' sports-tourer bodies would become acceptable finally, but it would be good to have something concrete to work from.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Can I suggest that the Austin 7 fraternity are proactive in putting forward some ideas initially within the Forum and the A7CA? To ensure that those in the A7 scene can dispel the cloud that has hung over many restorers for the last 2 years or more.

For starters: please consider the following, as ways to replace or change a body type on an original factory chassis. Should we also argue for period type spaceframe chassis?

A) Replacement replica bodies: of a type made by the factory or by coach builders in period: for A7's this might run to 50 kinds?

B) Sporting bodies : of a type commonly made and accepted by Clubs such as A7 Clubs, VSCC for sporting , trialling or other motorsports.

C) Commercial bodies: modelled on body types manufactured by the original manufacturer, or period commercial coach builders.

D) Special bodies: bodies made as one offs or in very small numbers by enthusiasts, following in the footsteps of Bill Williams, John Haynes and Colin Chapman whose A7 efforts changed motoring in the UK significantly.

All of the above , for Austins anyway, to be eligible for DVLA Historic road fund status should use period components wherever possible, but in all cases, A7 clubs should jointly establish a set of guidelines lines ( and an inspection regime similar to the existing system)and via A7CA and FBHVC for our line of cars.

I hope that a sensible on line consultation scheme can be organised.

FBHVC 's recent economic survey of the value of the historic vehicle sector should by now have made it clear to policy makers and politicians that this industry both had real heritage and economic benefits to a the Uk.

Take care!

Bill G @ Scottish Border

Location: Scottish Border

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

The latest newsletter from the FBHVC reports on the current position regarding vehicle identity and the replacement of bodies on vehicles with chassis.
There’s so much ambiguity in the report that it begins to smack of obfuscation. On the face of it the DVLA, the FBHVC and assorted worthies have had a bit of a cosy chat and come up with a scheme which allows for replacement bodies on vehicles with chassis. But there’s something in the report’s wording that makes me think that not all is as it seems and points towards a future where replacement bodies will be acceptable if they come only from an ‘approved’ supplier. The first nail in the coffin for the home-built Special.

‘We have reached an understanding with DVLA on how the
treatment of replacement bodies on chassis will be dealt with
through their different schemes. DVLA accept that original
bodies may properly be replaced, not least because bodies
deteriorate and may need replacing over time’.

Properly? What’s that supposed to mean? Well, one suggestion is that a ‘properly’ replaced body is one that’s identical to the one that was originally on the chassis. That’s the second nail in the coffin for Special builders but good news for specialist suppliers.

‘For vehicles applying under the V765 Scheme for the recovery
of an original registration number, the applicant or supporting
club should set out clearly the nature of the replacement body
fitted, especially if the style is different to that quoted on a
supporting original log book, which of course must always
be supplied if available, as it is DVLA’s preferred primary
evidence of the identity of the vehicle’.

Is this saying that the DVLA’s preferred primary source is the body or the logbook? If it’s the body, the DVLA is ignoring the government guidelines unearthed by Bob Owen that indicate perfectly clearly that the identity of a vehicle with a chassis is determined only by the chassis; the vehicle’s body plays a part only in the designation of its type; Saloon, Sports, Tourer, etc.
If the logbook is the primary source (which seems sensible) and a change of body style takes place, it is crucial that the DVLA have no part in the process other than to record the change. That, after all, is their job.

‘The application should demonstrate that the replacement body is one that could
have been placed on it from the outset or is of a style which
historically has become associated with the marque’.

Who, I wonder, is considering setting themselves up as the arbiter of style? Surely not the DVLA or the FBHVC! And what constitutes an historical association? My Hillman 14 was once a tractor and I’ve got the picture to prove it! This is all completely barmy and it’s clear that the determination of the DVLA to pigeon-hole everything is the driving force behind this malevolence.

I know I bang on about Special builders but, a long-standing freedom under law and a tradition of Special building that’s the envy of the world is being subtly eroded and, unless the FBHVC include and get a ‘Special’ body category in their demands, I regret to say that the FBHVC and all their friends in high places will be responsible for the cultural cleansing that’s likely taking place.

Location: Suffolk

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel


Properly? What’s that supposed to mean? Well, one suggestion is that a ‘properly’ replaced body is one that’s identical to the one that was originally on the chassis. That’s the second nail in the coffin for Special builders but good news for specialist suppliers.
.


I take properly to mean as in the dictionary definition:-
'correctly, or in a satisfactory way'

My immediate personal interpretation was it meant 'in a satisfactory way' so not far off the dictionary definition.

We still need to keep a close eye on proceedings though, just in case the DVLA has a different interpretation of the meaning
I also agree we must maintain emphasis that a variety of bodies were and are possible because of the historically normal practice to purchase a motorized chassis to be subsequently bodied elsewhere - either by individual or company.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel


‘The application should demonstrate that the replacement body is one that could
have been placed on it from the outset or is of a style which
historically has become associated with the marque’.

Who, I wonder, is considering setting themselves up as the arbiter of style? Surely not the DVLA or the FBHVC! And what constitutes an historical association?


The blurb states previously that all this is expected to be part of the V765 process. So, for an Austin Seven, I would be expecting the relevant club's named V765 representative to be stating that my Ulsteroid or other "period" replica coachwork is entirely representative of the marque.


In the case of Cambridge sports replica/other vaguely vintage looking body
or come to that a Hamblin Cadet or even a Markham-Peasey style body, I would expect the V765 representative to state that any of these body styles are historically associated with the marque, so should also get a "tick in box"

Of course, this happy situation would rely on the DVLA accepting the V765 reps' word, something for which they don't have anything like a 100% record to date.

Location: N W Kent

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