Welcome to the Austin Seven Friends web site and forum

As announced earlier, this forum with it's respective web address will go offline within the next days!
Please follow the link to our new forum

http://www.austinsevenfriends.co.uk/forum

and make sure, you readjust your link button to the new address!

Welcome Austin seven Friends
This Forum is Locked
Author
Comment
View Entire Thread
Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I agree Bill, At one time Rolls Royce only sold a rolling chassis, so there is no defined type of body for them, as with many commercial vehicles, in fact many company's made rolling chassis available to coachbuilders. The only important part of a vehicle like this is the driving chassis, that is the bit that is drivable and the part that is registered. If we take a newly made body and stick a box section chassis under it and fit a draw bar is not a motor car its trailer put it on an original chassis and it a motor vehicle and subject to all the relevant laws that go with it.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT MEDDLING. SAYS FBHVC
Federation fears over-rigid interpretations will wreck classic ownership
The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs has accused the UK Government of trying to railroad thousand into a hugely restrictive German style class of vehicles.
This historic sector: Vehicle of Historic Interest could restrict moderate and safe modifications being made to classics - or even force owners to return their vehicles to pre-modified and less safe condition.
In a no holds barred response to the Department for Transport's EU Roadworthiness Directive proposal the FBHBVC highlights several problems with DfT’s handling of the consultation.
In it the FBHUVC criticises the DfT for following EU Directives to the letter, and offering little to no acknowledgement of Brexit, Britain's intention to start , of leaving the EU next year The Govemment’s stance on the matter is that it needs to adhere to EU rules for now. But by the time the consultation comes into place in 2018 the UK is expected to have left the union. One of the main concerns is with modifications, as the EU Directives aren't that speci about what is considered to modified on an historic vehicle. Geoff Lancaster, the communications director for the
FBHVC, says he fears over-rigid interpretations ruining classic ownership. He says: 'There are suggestions that we might adopt the German model of very rigid specifications. But what the DfT doesn't realise is that we're very different culturally. 'In the case of modifications, from our point of view, the Government should not be arbiters of authenticity. It should only be an arbiter of road safety. Why should authorities care about authenticity? We care, clubs care, but it shouldn't affect the Government. The only issue is compliance in road safety.'
Along with classic enthusiasts in the UK, the FBHVC believes there are numerous question; on the Roadworthiness Directive that the DFT has failed to answer.
Asked by Classic Car Weekly to respond specifically to the modifications issue raised by roadworthiness testing proposals, a spokesman for the DFT says: •Classic cars are an important part of this nation's motoring heritage. It is important that enthusiasts can continue to enjoy them and that these vehicles are safe and appropriately maintained. 'We have consulted on plans to exempt vehicles over 40 years old from MOT’s. The responses are now being considered and we will respond in due course.'

www.fbhvc.co.uk
German-style historic class that could be coming to the UK
In Germany and Austria, classic cars can get an H plate -to signify it being a historic car.
Registering as an historic car gains cheaper tax and insurance; but cars have to adhere to the following stricter rules:
They must have been registered at least 30 years ago.
They must be 'mostly' in their original condition. No murals or custom paint jobs.
No modern' modifications are permitted on the vehicles.
Modifications that are allowed include changes that benefit safety or emissions.
Modifications that are in period can be allowed.

Location: Berkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

NOW THEY CALL IT CONTINUATION WHAT IS DVLA PLAYING AT?
In the CCW 23/11/16
New classic Jaguar XKSS
The first Jaguar XKSS made in 60 years has been revealed - and Jaguar will build eight more at its Special Operations Division headquarters in Coventry.
Jaguar will use chassis numbers allocated to original cars destroyed in the Browns Lane factory fire of 1957.
All nine have already been sold for £1m a piece, though. Jaguar exploited state of-the-art technology to digitally recreate the XKSS shape, which was then used as a blueprint for these continuation models. Coupled with original technical drawings, the original XKSS was recreated in every detail. The magnesium alloy body was made using a bespoke styling buck based on the original cars, while the chassis was bronze welded as it was in period. The new XKSS is powered by a 3.4-litre straight six D-type engine with a new cast iron block, new cylinder heads, triple Weber carbs and a stronger fuel cell - the latter a concession to safety. Other changes compared with the original cars are said to be 'minor'.
Tim Hannig, director of Jaguar Land Rover Classic, says: 'Our continuation XKSS reaffirms our commitment to nurture the passion and enthusiasm for Jaguar's illustrious past by offering exceptional cars, services, parts and experiences.'

Location: Berkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all


They must be 'mostly' in their original condition. No murals or custom paint jobs.
No modern' modifications are permitted on the vehicles.
Modifications that are allowed include changes that benefit safety or emissions.
Modifications that are in period can be allowed.

These rules would seem to be a bit contradictory, are they saying that as long as you have an original colour scheme you, can fit a modern more efficient and less polluting engine and transmission, change the axles and steering so as to be able to fit disc brakes with bigger wheels and tyres and also change the chassis for one with a crumple zone and seat belt fittings as all these modifications would benefit safety and emissions, and turn a historic vehicle into a hot rod, but then again the are no modern modifications allowed! But on the up side a change of body to a special would be allowed as that is a well proven and common period modification.It could also be argued that the lighter special body would make the car safer improving braking and handling characteristics. The mind boggles!

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I think it will take a court case to show the muddled thinking to be unfit for purpose. A Judge would probably throw it out if it got that far!

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

More farce than Brian Rix with half a dozen french maids, and episodes of 'Yes Minister' and 'Allo Allo' combined!

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Gentlemen , it is all just a farce , to keep the civil servants in a job . It is not designed to be efficient in any shape or form .

Merv

Location: New Forest

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Ben, What's the source of your information re the FBHVC?

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel
Ben, What's the source of your information re the FBHVC?


Hi Nigel

Classic Car Weekly 23/11/16

Location: Berkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Thanks Ben.

Accessed via the VHRA's website and well worth a read is the FBHVC's comprehensive and surprisingly robust response to the DfT's consultation on annual testing for Historic Vehicles.








Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

WOULD LOVE TO SEE IF DVLA IS GOING TO CLASSIFY THOSE NEW CONTINUATION AS HISTORIC?

NOW THE WORD FACSIMILE ACCORDING TO Denis Jenkinson HAS BEEN CHANGED TO CONTINUATION
"Facsimile"
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars, but such a situation is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from the originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built.
The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the paying public are gullible.


MANUFACTURER CONTINUATION MODELS

ASTON MARTIN DB 4 GT CONTINUATION
There will be a run of 25 models. Prices are estimated to be around £1.5m per car and the first is expected to be delivered in the third quarter of 2017. CCW understands the order book is already full.

JAGUAR XKSS
Nine models are to be built to the exact specification as those made in 1957, replacing cars lost due to the Browns Lane fire. Prices will be in excess of £1m and deliveries will start early next year.

JAGUAR LIGHT WEIGHT E-TYPE
The 'missing' six models were intended to fill the gap left by those that were never built from the intended original 18-car series from 1963. Prices were around £1.2m and cars were delivered to new owners in 2015.

Aston Martin is following the trend for continuation models by confirming it will build 25 lightweight track-only DB4 GTs.
The original car was launched in 1959 and a total of 75 were built from an intended run of 100 up until 1963. These new GTs will complete the run.
Values for the original models that still exist can exceed £3 million.
Each DB4 GT Continuation will be built by Aston Martin Works in Newport Pagnell "with a blend of old world craftsmanship and modern techniques'. The privately owned British carmaker says the continuation cars will have improved engine performance, handling, braking and safety features.
A spokesman for Aston Martin confirms more DB4 parts will be manufactured for the restoration and enthusiast market as a result of the project. He says: 'As an example, original door latches haven't been available for some time as it wasn't viable. However, we have gone back to the original supplier for this project and it will make parts for the 25 cars plus the restoration market/ Aston Martin's continuation project follows on from Jaguar building new versions of models like the Lightweight E-type and XKSS.
Graham Searle, Jaguar Enthusiasts Club (JEC) chairman, says the strong global interest in classic cars means manufacturers can now cash in on their heritage. (It is now a practical proposition because of the high values certain classics are now making. Ten years ago as they couldn't have charged enough to make it pay,' says Searle.

Location: Berkshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Ben Mitchell
WOULD LOVE TO SEE IF DVLA IS GOING TO CLASSIFY THOSE NEW CONTINUATION AS HISTORIC?

NOW THE WORD FACSIMILE ACCORDING TO Denis Jenkinson HAS BEEN CHANGED TO CONTINUATION
"Facsimile"
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars


I don't see how DVLA could accept the 'new' cars as historic based on their own current criteria which won't accept original running chassis to which a replacement body has been fitted or whereby any deviation from the original mechanics is rejected.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I don't know about the other makes, but I believe the Aston Martins are intended for racing only and not road use at all, so probably would not need to get involved with a DVLA registration. Should any of these new classics? be used on the road, the V5C should show the date of its first registration, which is a bit of a giveaway to the origin of the vehicle.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Never mind chaps.
The fellow in charge at the DVLA did very well in the New Year honours.
A Knighthood I gather.

R.M.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

If any of these cars were registered for road use I wonder if they would be issued with a new car number that could then be changed to a "cherished" plate? Anyone looking on would be none the wiser?


I think that some lesser "look alike" efforts can be a generous "homage" to the original without getting silly with the price. I imagine there are a few kits that could be fun to assemble. I am thinking about the superficially accurate representations of the SS100 Jaguar and "C" type that are produced either in house or in kit form by Suffolk Sports cars. Not cheap, but well done, none the less.

http://www.suffolksportscars.com

Location: Derby

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Hi Folks

Looks like there has been some progress between DVLA and FBHVC on the subject of appropriate replacement bodies to vehicles with original chassis, and running gear, whose old bodies are beyond repair.

See page 2 in this weeks's Classic Car Weekly! Also try www.fbhvc.co.uk

This may help those currently in limbo with A7 replica body projects but might still be tricky for "Specials" and also bring some relief to all our valued spares suppliers, whose businesses I suspect have been a bit dented by all the uncertainty over the last two years.

I hope that further clarification should become available in the next few weeks....???

Makes a pleasant change from reading about Brexit c**p and Trump.

So get out to that cold garage and get back to work on your new body on an old chassis?

Take care

Bill G

Scottish Border ( no wall here yet!)

Location: Scottish Border

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Two quotes from the Classic Car Weekly article mentioned by Bill " New guidelines suggest that the replacement body is one that could have been placed on it from the outset,or is of a style which has become associated with the marque". "The FBHVC and DVLA are to develop a valid glossary of terms to identify bodies which it will share in the future" . The latter quote is open to interpretation. Anyone got a clue about what it could mean? If it is going to be a long list we could be waiting to register our cars until Doomsday.

Location: Sheffield

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

'Sigh'

If only it wasn't taking sooooo loooonngg it's worse than watching paint dry.
On the plus side it's beginning to sound like repro' sports-tourer bodies would become acceptable finally, but it would be good to have something concrete to work from.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Can I suggest that the Austin 7 fraternity are proactive in putting forward some ideas initially within the Forum and the A7CA? To ensure that those in the A7 scene can dispel the cloud that has hung over many restorers for the last 2 years or more.

For starters: please consider the following, as ways to replace or change a body type on an original factory chassis. Should we also argue for period type spaceframe chassis?

A) Replacement replica bodies: of a type made by the factory or by coach builders in period: for A7's this might run to 50 kinds?

B) Sporting bodies : of a type commonly made and accepted by Clubs such as A7 Clubs, VSCC for sporting , trialling or other motorsports.

C) Commercial bodies: modelled on body types manufactured by the original manufacturer, or period commercial coach builders.

D) Special bodies: bodies made as one offs or in very small numbers by enthusiasts, following in the footsteps of Bill Williams, John Haynes and Colin Chapman whose A7 efforts changed motoring in the UK significantly.

All of the above , for Austins anyway, to be eligible for DVLA Historic road fund status should use period components wherever possible, but in all cases, A7 clubs should jointly establish a set of guidelines lines ( and an inspection regime similar to the existing system)and via A7CA and FBHVC for our line of cars.

I hope that a sensible on line consultation scheme can be organised.

FBHVC 's recent economic survey of the value of the historic vehicle sector should by now have made it clear to policy makers and politicians that this industry both had real heritage and economic benefits to a the Uk.

Take care!

Bill G @ Scottish Border

Location: Scottish Border

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

The latest newsletter from the FBHVC reports on the current position regarding vehicle identity and the replacement of bodies on vehicles with chassis.
There’s so much ambiguity in the report that it begins to smack of obfuscation. On the face of it the DVLA, the FBHVC and assorted worthies have had a bit of a cosy chat and come up with a scheme which allows for replacement bodies on vehicles with chassis. But there’s something in the report’s wording that makes me think that not all is as it seems and points towards a future where replacement bodies will be acceptable if they come only from an ‘approved’ supplier. The first nail in the coffin for the home-built Special.

‘We have reached an understanding with DVLA on how the
treatment of replacement bodies on chassis will be dealt with
through their different schemes. DVLA accept that original
bodies may properly be replaced, not least because bodies
deteriorate and may need replacing over time’.

Properly? What’s that supposed to mean? Well, one suggestion is that a ‘properly’ replaced body is one that’s identical to the one that was originally on the chassis. That’s the second nail in the coffin for Special builders but good news for specialist suppliers.

‘For vehicles applying under the V765 Scheme for the recovery
of an original registration number, the applicant or supporting
club should set out clearly the nature of the replacement body
fitted, especially if the style is different to that quoted on a
supporting original log book, which of course must always
be supplied if available, as it is DVLA’s preferred primary
evidence of the identity of the vehicle’.

Is this saying that the DVLA’s preferred primary source is the body or the logbook? If it’s the body, the DVLA is ignoring the government guidelines unearthed by Bob Owen that indicate perfectly clearly that the identity of a vehicle with a chassis is determined only by the chassis; the vehicle’s body plays a part only in the designation of its type; Saloon, Sports, Tourer, etc.
If the logbook is the primary source (which seems sensible) and a change of body style takes place, it is crucial that the DVLA have no part in the process other than to record the change. That, after all, is their job.

‘The application should demonstrate that the replacement body is one that could
have been placed on it from the outset or is of a style which
historically has become associated with the marque’.

Who, I wonder, is considering setting themselves up as the arbiter of style? Surely not the DVLA or the FBHVC! And what constitutes an historical association? My Hillman 14 was once a tractor and I’ve got the picture to prove it! This is all completely barmy and it’s clear that the determination of the DVLA to pigeon-hole everything is the driving force behind this malevolence.

I know I bang on about Special builders but, a long-standing freedom under law and a tradition of Special building that’s the envy of the world is being subtly eroded and, unless the FBHVC include and get a ‘Special’ body category in their demands, I regret to say that the FBHVC and all their friends in high places will be responsible for the cultural cleansing that’s likely taking place.

Location: Suffolk

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel


Properly? What’s that supposed to mean? Well, one suggestion is that a ‘properly’ replaced body is one that’s identical to the one that was originally on the chassis. That’s the second nail in the coffin for Special builders but good news for specialist suppliers.
.


I take properly to mean as in the dictionary definition:-
'correctly, or in a satisfactory way'

My immediate personal interpretation was it meant 'in a satisfactory way' so not far off the dictionary definition.

We still need to keep a close eye on proceedings though, just in case the DVLA has a different interpretation of the meaning
I also agree we must maintain emphasis that a variety of bodies were and are possible because of the historically normal practice to purchase a motorized chassis to be subsequently bodied elsewhere - either by individual or company.

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Nigel


‘The application should demonstrate that the replacement body is one that could
have been placed on it from the outset or is of a style which
historically has become associated with the marque’.

Who, I wonder, is considering setting themselves up as the arbiter of style? Surely not the DVLA or the FBHVC! And what constitutes an historical association?


The blurb states previously that all this is expected to be part of the V765 process. So, for an Austin Seven, I would be expecting the relevant club's named V765 representative to be stating that my Ulsteroid or other "period" replica coachwork is entirely representative of the marque.


In the case of Cambridge sports replica/other vaguely vintage looking body
or come to that a Hamblin Cadet or even a Markham-Peasey style body, I would expect the V765 representative to state that any of these body styles are historically associated with the marque, so should also get a "tick in box"

Of course, this happy situation would rely on the DVLA accepting the V765 reps' word, something for which they don't have anything like a 100% record to date.

Location: N W Kent

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Steve,

It’s not the definition of ‘properly’ I’m concerned about, it’s the criteria.

The FBHVC newsletter announces that it and the DVLA have ‘reached an understanding’ but doesn’t describe that understanding with any real clarity; in fact, with careful reading the report raises more questions than it answers, hence my comment about obfuscation.

I think the FBHVC need to come clean and state clearly what their position is regarding Specials. I asked David Whale this very question and he replied, ‘It depends what you mean by Special’.

That to me spoke volumes.

Location: Suffolk

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Hi Nigel,
Yes I totally agree that there's still a lack of detail and clarity.
We still need specifics regarding specials, David Whale must know what is meant by a 'special', particularly in connection with Austin 7's but as we know there are Ford's and other chassis based vehicles too.
So he would appear to be being deliberately vague which is worrying.

Steve.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

I am thinking that out there,there must be lots of Austin 7 two seater specials that are still registered as four seater saloons, and even more with the wrong engine number . So what the hell do they do. Maybe someone in authority can advise such owners.? Terry .

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

It strikes me that needlessly sticking one's head above the parapet can have an unfortunate outcome...

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Concise and to the point.
Bliss.

Location: Bristol

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Or, to put it another way;
God looks after those who look after themselves.

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Classic Cars March-April 2017
DVLA Gives thumbs up to reproduction bodies
The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs FBHVC and the DVLA have reached an understanding over age related registrations for rebodied classics.
The agency accepts that original bodies may properly be replaced on an existing chassis as they deteriorate over time. The (Registration) application should demonstrate that the replacement body is on that could have been placed on it from the outset or is of a style associated with the marque.

Location: North London

Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all

Now I have to add a special to the list of things to be done, the parts have been sitting there for some time.

Location: Oakley , hants