Ivor,

The problem is there is no body.
It was going to be (eventually) a special, albeit with the chassis very much as it left Longbridge.

As I see it my only 2 options now are to find a Ruby body to re-fit or to give up and find another hobby.


Rob

Rob. This seems so unfair. When you consider that specials have been built for so many years and the reason for the 750 club, for example, I can't imagine that this is the end of the matter.

Let's wait and see what the DVLA actually put into print first.

Location: Derby

Ivor, the Swallows replacement chassis would I assume not have been with new chassis but with an older existing pre-registered chassis, technically that should not be a problem as they were all the same, no one cannot tell the difference apart from the replacement rivets on the chassis plate,and who is going to know in any case, plus it's a genuine replacement part, even the DVLA would and do allow this to be done if they are so informed. Though some early cars had chassis numbers stamped on the chassis itself I believe in which case the DVLA would have to be informed.

Now with the replacement chassis the Swallow or whatever is a rolling/driving chassis with the correct numbers for the original vehicle registration documents,and is how it was sold to Swallows in the first place, it is now by definition a motor vehicle, with an engine covering, mudguards and reflectors it could be driven legally on the road, fitting a body of any type only makes it more comfortable to drive. This point is so important to our case, the definition of a motor vehicle, a driving chassis, tractor, lawnmower even a pushbike with engine is a motor vehicle,all of which need to be registered and none of which have body's or even the many veteran cars are only a seat on a chassis.

Swallows, Gordan Englands or Ulsters and so on generally rarer than the Chummy so it makes sense to build a replica if you need a new body, this is OK as long as it is not passed of as the real thing no mater how accurate it may be, by putting replica or made from parts on the V5C would solve this problem for cars with no ID paperwork.

The DVLA seem to have got it into their heads that a vehicle with a separate chassis needs a body of a certain type and consider it to be a major component, this as we all know is not the case and we MUST get this point across to them.

Location: Pembrokeshire.

Ray,

There are probably dozens of people in the same situation. As you say, sit and wait.

Or build a Trials car instead?

Rob

...except as I mentioned, two of the Swallows with replacement chassis & engine were re registered.

I am assuming re registration would not now be possible if the replacement chassis came from, say, a 1930 A7 saloon even if the Swallow body was an original 1930 2 seater sports?

As has been stated, it's always been the chassis number that gives the car it's identity, not the body.

Location: Derby

I understand the point of the chassis giving a car its identity but my dad was given a car by a widow many years ago, her husband had saved the car from a field in Potters Bar. The cars chassis was completely rotten and it had none of its original bodywork, we think the car had been used as a farm hack. Dad went to night classes in Hackney to make a new chassis (an exact copy of the original) for it and a friend helped make the new body. The DVLA allowed the car to be registered but insisted that the chassis was stamped with a new 16 digit number. Without the DVLA allowing him to rebuild and register the car it would never have been done and the only surviving car of the marque would disappeared for good.

I think the DVLA are hunting the Bugattis, Alfas et al, that have made some people a huge amount of money at the cost of others by claiming originality when very little actually exists. Unfortunately everyone else who is rebuilding a car at far higher cost than the cars resale value are getting caught. The other thing is I guess the DVLA and the VSCC is trying to stop original cars getting cut up to make a specials. I know of one case where someone bought a complete and running Edwardian to chop up and make an aero engine special, the VSCC was fully aware (I think the owner actually asked before chopping whether he would get a buff form and was told categorically no and went ahead anyway) and the buff form was refused when it was applied for. However it does puts a shadow over people who find original parts from cars that have passed away but could be put back together to make a car, special or replica, so that they can turn a wheel again which to me is a huge loss. What happens in the case of an accident when rebuild is possible?

Sorry for the long rant, breathe

Location: Eye on the Norfolk / Suffolk border

Quite agree Tom, I see nothing wrong with a car assembled from original mechanical parts even if they came from a number of vehicles, they just need to be identifiable as such in order that deception can not take place. It is not uncommon in any field of historic interest for machines to be reconstructed or even recreated from scratch, look at steam engines for example.

Location: NZ

Rant quite understandable, Tom. I also hate it when an otherwise restorable historic car gets sacrificed to make a special or hot rod. What I do admire are the guys who take a wreck or a car rusted beyond repair and make something of it. What your Dad did was admirable.

I do hope the DVLA will take on board all the consequences of their actions and come to a satisfactory solution.

Location: Derby

I am watching with increasing wonder at the rather convoluted arrangements in UK.
That said I think that some are making it more confusing- here a car has a saloon body or a tourer body - a Swallow is either a saloon body or a tourer body - it doesn't matter who built it surely.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Australia.

I have understood form a number of sources that the DVLA identified their intent to give feedback after the meeting, based on the issues raised and what was discussed.

Seemingly the only sticking point is re-bodying of rolling chassis of pre war cars, which they were open about and were going to go away and re-evaluate their stance.

Presumably it is this matter which has delayed the 'feedback'.

That said I do not believe we will return to where we were, there is seemingly far more emphasis on the 'historic' from the DVLA.

Swallow didn't produce a tourer. You could have a saloon or a two seater. From my understanding of the rules, the DVLA were seemingly unhappy about replacing one with another but have gone away to reconsider their position.

Location: Derby

Lets hope they can make a decision before people start going out of business!

Spoke to one well known builder of new bodies last night and he hasn't had a single order in the last four months.

Location: United Kingdom

Sorry- roadster.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Australia.

The loss of these skills would not only affect complete new bodies either. Anyone who needs specialist attention to their existing car body will be affected too. If some pleb runs into the back of my car I'm not likely to be taking it to the local bodyshop.

Location: Derby

There is a massive amount still at stake here.

Its good that the meeting has happened and that the DVLA are mulling over the feedback.

As has been stated, Special building and new bodies are still areas for concern. The FBHVC, I believe (and hopefully I'm wrong!), only represent part of what we do with old cars in that their area of interest appears to be "historical accuracy" maybe it is this has driven the DVLA's thinking to date?

There has, and still is, been a special building culture in this and other countries; this is an area where the FBHVC don't appear to be involved, but the old car world would be poorer without some of the aero specials, and hybrids that are around (and that are being built)

Location: Kent

DVLA should create a new category which take care of all our concerns. Call it Replica Special Classic for example and charge a set annual car tax. A lot of people will settle for this and will solve a big problem.

Location: Southport

Well, no, that's not the only sticking point; indeed, it's not even the major one.
There is the issue of registering a vehicle which has been assembled from components from several, PREVIOUSLY REGISTERED, cars (I'm not talking about cars built from an assembly of old parts around a NEW chassis frame, for example). This is the issue that seems to be causing most concern amongst Austin Seven owners, because there are still such a large number of old components which can be viably re-assembled into complete cars.
But let's not be too blinkered; this is not an Austin special-builders problem, this affects the wider old car movement. I was just reading an article in The Automobile detailing the rebuild of a 1908 car: this started from a chassis, gearbox and back axle found in Ireland, and required the sourcing of an engine from Australia and a radiator from New Zealand amongst many other original items. At no point in the article was there a suggestion that this was an undateable special built up from parts: it was the restoration of the original 1908 Irish car whose chassis frame was just about the last remaining component.
Just because the DVLA are unable to identify the registration details of an original car (because they failed in their duty to transfer ALL the registration details at the time of computerisation, as was promised at the time) we are now to be penalised if we produce a vehicle with no paperwork...

Very valid points Mike.

Despite very youthful years I do clearly remember the strife caused when the DVLA started to computerise in the late 1970's - the phone (a shared "party line" with our elderly neighbour!!) did not stop ringing as my father and other Officers/affiliates of the Clubs' Association attempted to spread the word to "act now or lose out" - many did and just as many lost out, it would seem. Oh for the Internet when that exercise was undertaken.

Just because the DVLA are unable to identify the registration details of an original car (because they failed in their duty to transfer ALL the registration details at the time of computerisation, as was promised at the time) we are now to be penalised if we produce a vehicle with no paperwork...

This is a very valid point and I wonder if the relevant members of parliament are fully aware of this fact, if not they should be made so. The government and DVLA need to realize that they are public servants working on our behalf and that their incompetence is now risking peoples livelihoods.

Location: NZ

On the other hand, we as the public must realise that we have been given many exemptions and priviliges simply because we run "historic" vehicles.

Personally I do not see a 'historic vehicle' when presented with a newly built Austin 7 special in many cases. In most cases it is no more than a toy.

We must be mindfull that using the exemptions designed for historic vehicles as a vehicle to create cars to the builders own specification may well not be in the spirit in which the priviliges were meant to be used.

Because as a hobby we have not been mindfull, is the reason we have got where we have.

Just because there is an industry building pretend historic vehicles is not a valid reason for the dvla to bend the rules to allow it to happen. In essence they will have been partly responsible for their own demise.

Well, it might happen Ian. On the other hand you might care to think of DVLA as a latter day Domesday book.....Incidentally, Michael and I are in complete agreement that public servants have failed to fulfill their responsibilities. Only following orders, of course.

All the best,
Stuart

I have been wondering where I stand if I want an age related number for an imported car? I have been looking at a potential 'London to Brighton' project which would need to be imported from the USA . It would need a new body (mostly) but is otherwise complete. I am wondering if the DVLA would refuse a number because most of the body - apart from the wings and seat - would be new?

The VCC of GB have their own points system but whether this is the same as the DVLA I don't know. I will have to make a few enquiries before going any further.

Location: Derby

A friend of mine did this recently. Fairly easy if you have US papers and i'd suggest that you avoid a new body but embark on a significant rebuild of the remains.

Charles

I will have to re think this idea. The Veteran car is devoid of a body but reading between the lines I get your drift. Unfortunately, there is also no title; the car having been dragged out of a barn where it has lain for the past 80 years. I am also having trouble with my lead in the States - he can't be relied on - so I think it's a dead end.

Another Veteran restoration project that took my eye - a 1904 Brennan - is advertised as being here in the U.K. but the seller is not answering my emails. probably another waste of time.

Better stick with Austin Sevens!

Location: Derby

Hedd, I hope the DVLA do not go down those lines and only see the shiny new body placed on a genuine old chassis, which presently seems to be the case until this situation is made clearer. That sort of thinking will doom us all, as any vehicle that is not as it originally left the factory could be classed as a special, even if it was just a 12 volt conversion or fitting an upgraded crankshaft if the rules were to be applied as such.

Manufacturers sold rolling chassis to coachbuilders and the public, and the choice of body was up to the customer. In the past many cars were re-bodied in different forms by company's and individuals, this is part of our motoring heritage and has been for many, many years and there are plenty of re-bodied cars, specials and kit cars around to prove the point.

The current feeling would seem to be if the body is over 25 years old it is OK to fit it, So if you want to build a special go ahead build it then wait 25 years before it can be registered, this concept is ridiculous, and in any case a body cannot be seen as a major component unless it is made of fibreglass, because it is made up of many smaller components all of which can be changed,in fact the same could be said of a chassis just to complicate matters further.

Having said all this the real problem that has caused all this trouble in the first place, is at what point does a vehicle become classed as new? We should not be arguing about the originality of the look of the vehicle, but the amount of original manufacturers parts in it. As far as I can see the best way to do this would be to have the parts inspected before the restoration or registration process has even started instead of after all the work has been done, a recognition / approval certificate could then be given to the old components and an assessment of how much will have to be changed to make a usable vehicle, based on the old 8 points system, not enough original components or to many new ones required it does not get approved.

Location: Pembrokeshire

This is not just a case of building specials - and in Austin Seven terms we are really talking about special bodies on largely original underpinnings, not something like a GN chassis fitted with MG axles and some obscure aero engine!
How do you see an authentic 1923 Austin Seven painstakingly recreated on an original 1923 chassis and all 1923 components sourced over many years from all over the globe, but of necessity fitted with a brand new body tub?

Ray, I believe as things stand at the moment you could probably still be OK, because you are talking about a complete entity (less body) rather than a collection of parts from miscellaneous sources. In your particular case, I think you need to be talking to the VCC about your specific example, as they are going to be the ones who will have to provide the authentication letter for the DVLA. Once you have suitable dating information, you will be able to register it with the DVLA before any rebuild starts; if you need bodywork, just stick a 25 year old household chair on the chassis!

Thanks Mike. Great stuff. Yes, it would need to be more or less all there as I will be at the mercy of the VCC dating committee. I'm not sure how much confidence one can have following the fiasco a few years ago but like with the DVLA we have to make the best of the hand we have been dealt.

I wonder if 'er indoors would miss the odd chair?

Location: Derby

Thinking about it,I'll revise that specification to include an original 1923 body too; any sane person would see a complete, authentic, 1923 Austin Seven, but the DVLA at the moment would consider it a collection of parts of indeterminate origin requiring IVA examination, and if you're lucky, a Q-plate!

Without a "clear" title document you wouldn't be able to export the car from the USA from my past experience: US customs will want sight of the title to ensure that you're not exporting a stolen car, or a car where the title may have a lien (outstanding finance, unpaid repair bill etc.) registered against it.

If the car does has a title, once imported, you would simply send the original title document to the DVLA along with the duty paid import paperwork and the filled in registration form and your V5C with age related plate will duly arrive. Occasionally cars will be inspected, but that inspection is only to ascertain that chassis etc. numbers match the paperwork you sent in.

Location: Kent, UK

Thank you for that Stuart. It actually answers a number of questions, not least of which is why the contact I have is being evasive.

Location: Derby

and since the Vintage Hot Rod Association interpretation of the meeting,there is a complete silence from DVLA. Has anybody heard anything?
My car is awaiting a new replica body.
Richard

Location: Southport

One information that DVLA has released during the meeting on the 23 September.
That Non reflective number plates black and white or black and silver are now permitted on classics built before January 1975 as long as the cars have been registered as Historic Vehicles.

The authorities seem intent on providing us with exemptions that are not needed.

Location: Derby

I was just about to buy a Austin 7 special but having read this will now be investing in my other hobbies at least they have not been banned yet.

How can Joe public ie me not an expert although I have done my research tell what he is buying. The vehicle I was buying is on it's original reg. It has a new body, but does it have it's original engine or gearbox? probably not it's been used a trial vehicle since the 60's and then there is the honesty of the chap selling it, he may not even no himself. So I buy it and then DVLA say sorry mate cannot drive it. Open a can of worms killed classic car ownership more like.

Fed up

Brian

Location: Wiltshire

Brian,
I think you are over reacting. I know plenty of people in the old car world still building specials/restoring with 'new' bodies and they are not unduly worried especially if the car already has its original reg number/log book.
What does the log book say about body style? Saloon,Tourer,Sports? Did you check that?
My understanding is the DVLA will not be contacting everyone to ask them to 'prove' the provenance of their cars but will be contacting individuals where there is the possibility of say a Type 35 claiming to be 1920 something when it was in fact made from scratch in South America a couple of years ago from 100% new parts.

Paul N-M

Location: Edinburgh

Paul
Approximately 200 letters sent from DVLA to Bugatti owners:
Fact one: Only 3 cars in the UK are known to be South America Pur Sang
Fact two: The rest 99 pct are home build by the like of Tula Engineering, Gentry Restorations, Ivan Dutton and Crosthwaite and Gardiner.

Location: East Sussex

Hi Pat

It shown on the V5 as sport was registered in 1983 but declared new 1936.

Brian

Location: Wiltshire

Liam,
The problem with Bugs is that the dodgy ones have effected many less dodgy ones as well as totally genuine straight cars and the DVLA now think they are all at it!

Location: Edinburgh

So you mean dodgy is not acceptable but less dodgy and genuine are acceptable.
Out of the appro 200 cars 90 pct are dodgy and semi dodgy.
You need to keep in mind that in the 60s a big majority of genuine cars was dismantled and three cars appeared in lieu, one with a genuine chassis one with a genuine engine and one with a genuine body.
Where do you draw the line

More a case that we all appreciate that old cars need ongoing work/replacement parts, sometimes major parts like engines, body etc to keep them on the road. Keeping them in a usable condition and driven by enthusiasts is what its all about. No one bothered about making up a 'bitza' as values were relatively low and the old car movement a lot smaller than it is today.
Its now big business with lots of money driving values ever skyward and supported by companies that have capabilities way beyond swapping a clapped out engine for a slightly less clapped out one, albeit still made in period.
To pick up on your point about one original car spawning three 'original' cars. Again some may have raised eyebrows at this practice anticipating where it may lead, the courts in some cases as values rocketed, but most were comfortable that we had two more of our type of car on the road/track. Has this now come back to haunt us?
So much so we now have situations of 'toolroom' copies being raced in stead of the original due to astronomical values. The very fact it is seen as economical to go to the huge expense of making a brand new tool room copy is astounding!
Yes, we all want our cars to be kept going and need our cherished suppliers.
With so much money driving the market there are many who will supply whatever the customer wants even if almost 100% new.
It could be argued this has ruined it for the run of the mill enthusiast now that the DVLA has woken up to what's been going on. Lets hope not and as I said in a previous post many restoration businesses are carrying on as usual but obviously with a watchful eye on developments and hopefully considered advise to their customers.
Some people just could not resist the lure of big bucks!

Paul N-M

Location: Edinburgh

The DVLA’s hotline isn't capable of dealing with many of the issues raised by classic owners, according to the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs.

The Federation reached this conclusion after attending the registration agency’s Historic Vehicle Meeting on 23 September, along with representatives of more than 70 clubs. CCW was not allowed to attend.

The Federation’s report reads: ‘The DVLA made it clear at this meeting that it was impossible to provide specialists on its enquiry line and that historic vehicle owners would only have recourse to its general enquiries line. Appeal to FBHVC therefore remains the most effective way of having your case taken up by specialists directly with senior officials within DVLA.’

The Federation praised the DVLA for reassuring clubs about issues raised since the closure of local registration offices in 2012. It also emphasised that while the DVLA had explained its position on some issues affecting vehicle registration, the agency had not explained its justification. The FBHVC is advising member clubs to let it know of any DVLA-related issues it encounters.

DVLA spokesman David Whitbread said: ‘The meeting was useful and allowed us to speak directly to our customers and stakeholders

Classic Car Weekly

Location: East Sussex

I have no wish to 'blow the whistle' on this car, but can someone please explain how the DVLA can take its present line on 'specials' and 'cars of indeterminate origin', when it perpetrates this little lie:

A car is built in 1913, taken off the road in 1922, abandoned on a farm, all the metal parts are scrapped during the war as part of the war effort, yet the wooden body survives the years(!), is fitted to a chassis built from parts (from various sources and even different continents) of a completely different make and model (with not a few modern modifications incorporated), and the DVLA reissues the original car's registration number to it...!!!

The car, newly restored - or should that be created - has just come on the market with this 'fully documented' history; a fascinating story, no doubt, even if a few 'apparently's may have been omitted, but really, that just leaves me speechless...

Far be it from me to cast aspersions but there is always the suspicion that other factors may be at play. Perhaps it is a case of not what you know but who you know?

Know what I mean? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more!

Nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse, know what I mean?

Location: Derby

I guess the DVLA changes could be the reason for an increase on the number of specials for sale on E-bay
Has there been any further developments regarding these rule changes?
Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Stephen,
The only item of interest I have read is a letter in December's "The Automobile" from someone who has a number of historic vehicles without documentation, all of them intended as retirement projects. He has now stopped work on them as a consequence of the DVLA's current rules. There must be quite a few people in this limbo position. I haven't heard mention of any forecast time for a DVLA decision. Perhaps someone who is in the VSCC or other old vehicle club may know more?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Hi Dave,
The situation you describe is the one I'm in.
I bought a box saloon chassis complete with all the major mechanical components but no reg back in the eighties, and subsequently purchased from Rod Yates the very first ulster style body that he produced.
Although not yet in my dotage I got made redundant 2011 am now 59 and looking to overhaul and rebuild as I now have the time, little dreaming that the current situation would occur.
I still have hopes but like the guy you mentioned in the Automobile am on hold as it doesn't seem worth investing my time and further expense as things stand

Steve

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Very sad to see anyone give up on a project Stephen. I live in hope that common sense will get there in the end. I’m in the same boat as others in this one and certainly don’t want to have the disappointment of not driving my creation after all the effort and money put into it. All this uncertainty will push up the value of logbooks and a scrap of metal showing a chassis number

As far as I am aware the DVLA will not issue a V5C until the vehicle is roadworthy and are only interested in a car when it is time to get it registered, at this point any amount of new components and replacement parts may have been fitted and it is almost impossible to determine how much of the car is original and how much of it is new components, this is the situation we find ourselves in at the moment.

The only way out of this situation as far as I can see, is to have the project car inspected by club experts to confirm its origins before the restoration/rebuild has started and by using the current points system a decision can then be made as to how much of the original vehicle actually exists and how much will have to be replaced to make it into a usable vehicle. If the vehicle has enough points it can then be issued with a new V5C document and appropriate numbers, maybe even stating restored,rebuilt or special and the restoration/rebuild can then go ahead.

There will of course still be problem vehicles, but this system should sort out the run of the mill and what you might call genuine bitsa's from the newly made cars that only have one or two original components.

Location: Pembrokeshire.

Why is it that Special building people are crying into cornflakes and waiting to see what is happening? Why doesn’t Special builder everywhere write to Mr David Whale Chief Top Chairman of FBHVC (and is meant to be fighting corner) pressing him to be pulling up socks and breaking pencils, telling DVLA that putting new body on old chassis is part of our great British culture from beginnings of motorcar history and not to be interfered with.

May I alert you fine fellows to this? Government Department for Business Innovation & Skills has section describing responsibilities of National Regulators. This is what they are saying about DVLA:

The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA)’s main responsibilities are to: maintain over 44 million driver records and 36 million vehicle records; collect nearly £6 billion a year in vehicle excise duty; and support the police and intelligence authorities in dealing with vehicle related crime.
DVLA’s purpose is to keep registers of drivers and vehicles and make them as accessible and as flexible as possible to those who have the right to use them. These registers underpin action by DVLA, the police and others to keep road users safe and ensure that the law is respected and observed. The registers also allow us to collect vehicle excise duty effectively and can be used to deliver other departmental and government initiatives.
As a supplement to core operations for all motorists, the DVLA provides specific services to some business customers to help to reduce business costs. Access to services is monitored, but does not require significant formal enforcement activity.

It is being very clear in abundance that DVLA exist to see laws relating to vehicle registrations, motorcar safety and use are being upheld. Nowhere is it being suggested that DVLA may unilaterally make judgements about those laws or interpret them in ways other than how they are presented to motoring public or indeed, make more rules up as they are going along. DVLA principal role is being that of record-keeper.

There’s always official blighter who wants to spoil fun and this they will be doing unless we are reacting accordingly.

Thank you