Not even from old parts - the advert claims it's built from 90% new parts!

What about this one
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C704937

Location: East Sussex

I have a soft spot for replicas especially where the builder has paid close attention to detail. Whether or not they should be treated in exactly the same way as cars with a genuine pedigree is a moot point. To my mind, although they are not historic vehicles they probably deserve to be recognised by the authorities as a special case and fall into a category of their own with similar dispensations to those enjoyed by genuine historic vehicles.

I think I would argue that where a vehicle is constructed with no attempt made to follow in the spirit of an original (historic) design but reflects the builder's imagination and flair; being essentially a 'hot rod' or 'street rod' of some kind, then it should be treated differently. Where the line should be drawn between these cars and 'specials' is not something that I feel sufficiently confident to comment on.

Location: Derby

Liam, what baffled me was your comment that "DVLA rules allow this and it is legitimate".

Almost all traditional Austin Seven projects could comply with those rules as virtually all of them were mechanically of pre-war origin and re-bodying an old chassis was perfectly OK.

As far as I'm aware, DVLA rules have never allowed new, or substantially new-build cars to be registered as "historic" vehicles.

However, if what I've read on this thread is true, certain clubs and individuals have been abusing the system on an industrial scale and we are all now being punished for their activities.

A 2010 new-build with 2010 on the V5 is a replica. A 2010 new-build with 1930 on the V5 is a fake and should be treated as such. I don't care whether there are ten thousand of them out there!

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".

I have just been reading the latest newsletter from FBHVC (issue 2/2016) and note there is absolutely zero progress from the DVLA on age-related registration. It is on FBHVC website for those who are interested.
Dave

Location: Sheffield

Sigh

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Stephen Voller
Dec 13, 2015 - 2:43PM
Quote Reply Re: DVLA New Rules which are going to affect us all
Is your friend trying to get the cars original number officially reissued to his vehicle or trying to get a new age related number allocated ?
Certainly seems to be a lengthy process, I dread to think how many vehicles currently involved and that's without those of us still waiting to register.
Steve V

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

My friend just received a letter from DVLA requesting him to make an appointment with SGS for the car to be examined.
A good start I think. but took a year to get this letter.
Liam

Location: East Sussex

Hopefully things will progress more quickly now Liam.
Sure am glad you friend wasn't holding his breath!

Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

not at all he bought a spare V5 just in case.
The DVLA reference is : Kits and Rebuilds

Location: East Sussex

Perhaps an update, such as it is, is required.
The latest FBHVC News carries an article on Registration Matters. Firstly it would appear that the DVLA negotiator moved on and it took some time to establish with whom to deal with (!)
As we know the major issue concerns bodies on vehicles with a chassis. The DVLA has on numerous occasions rejected applications on the basis of the body not being original or consistent with the original body style - often based on the body style described in the old VE60 logbooks. The DVLA's own publication, viz INF 26 and V765/3 appear to preclude that bodies on chassis should be considered in the case of a genuine vehicle. However the DVLA continue to maintain that local authorities always had considered bodies in the past and thus would continue to do so.
Much research has unearthed a Ministry of Transport document regarding licensing, taxation and registration which clearly states that the chassis constitutes the vehicle and that it not only forms the frame but both of the axles, gears, steering and transmission. A change of body by itself does not constitute a change in identity.
A further search appears to show that this policy remains unchanged.
Thus this information has been conveyed to the DVLA in a Policy Paper and a response is awaited.

Chris Garner, VC- A7CA

Location: Melton Mowbray

At first reading this would seem to be a step in the right direction. Let's hope that common sense prevails in the face of red tape.

THIS MORNING THE INSPECTOR ON BEHALF OF DVLA CAME TO INSPECT THE AUSTIN 7. HE CHECKED ALL AROUND AND TOOK NOTE OF THE CHASSIS AND ENGINE NUMBERS AND TOOK SOME PHOTOS. IN ALL 20 MINUTES.
HOPEFULLY THAT WILL SETTLE THE MATTER.

Location: East Sussex

So it's taken nearly seven months for the inspection to happen? Unbelieveable!

Let's hope a suitable V5C arrives within the next few days, as it did for the case of the Renault Dauphine that I mentioned last year.

At this rate I will be in my woodland wicker casket before any progress is made on registering my special.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Sadly I was not able to retain the number from my 1925 barn find trials special unearthed after a 40 year slumber, despite sending DVLA both a 40 year old, MOT and Tax Disc, receipt of Reg file transfer from "home" authority to the final one . Plus I had the usual dating letter and inspection report from the local club.

Despite all this a a full set of photos DVLA reject my application to retain the 1925 reg number and sent all my documentation back.

When I phoned to discuss the situation the official was as helpful as they could be but said they were "powerless"
As they had a strict protocol to follow and as I had not proved a direct link between the chassis no and the registration no they had to decline my application for a V5. However the official said I had enough evidence to get an age related number, which after about two months they finally issued one , in the correct format 2 letters 4 digits.

Always try to get a personal contact at DVLA in the K& R section ( there are 14 of them!) being able to phone enabled me to negotiate this maze caused by the Govt cutting civil service jobs in LOcal licensing offices

Now need to complete the Cup Rep body and change the colour!

Happy motoring!

Having a set of original Chummy wings and a 50 year old rough trials body possibly helped , but not to retain its own number even though I had loads of data but not the crucial logbook or Licensing Office records many of which were destroyed across the country.

I must try and research the age related no!

Regards

Bill

Location: Scottish Border

After a month he received a letter from DVLA

FURTHER TO THE INSPECTION OF YOUR VEHICLE, I AM CONSIDERING YOUR CASE AND WILL SEND YOU A FULL REPLY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Really Scandalous, Does not look very good

Location: East Sussex

Has your friend been in touch with the FBHVC? - if not he should - they keep saying they need examples of whats going on.

Location: Kent

Please don't throw things at me, but having been involved in the whole process several times myself and also taking an interest in genuine cars, I really feel for the DVLA bods because the lengths some of the fakers have gone to, in order to create desirable vintage and post vintage cars is extraordinary.

What's more, a lot of them have got away with it. There are heaven knows how many Riley Imps, Brooklands, MPH's that all started out as perfectly restorable saloons, but have now inherited some sort of "history"...the same goes for whole range of other cars including six cylinder MGs, Singer LeMans, Wolseley Hornets, Bentleys and Bugattis, where there are more around now than were actually built in the first place!

Sadly the big money cars are being used to shift large amounts of money around the globe by rich businessmen and investors, which means a) the real thing is out of a lot of people's reach now and b)Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs has tightened up the rules to the point that the DVLA are looking very, very closely at every application, virtually regardless of the value of the car, knowing that a correct registration considerably adds to the value of the vehicle, particularly where "history" is concerned...did you know Tazio Nuvolari raced my Box saloon?

I really feel for the owners of specials like Hamblins and Speedex who are trying to retain a bit of history to their cars, even though they were built in the 50's and 60's and if you are building a special today, you really do have to have all your ducks in a row.

The FBHVC is a hopeless case they only provide lip service and are not really interested in fighting DVLA. They wrote few articles about it and met with officials from DVLA when it all started but we never heard from them on this subject for a very long time.

Location: East Sussex

Perhaps you should read their newsletters! Bob Owen's report in their most recent (2016 Issue 3) explains some of the difficulties they have been having with their negotiations with the DVLA. Whilst I agree that the FBHVC may have been slow to appreciate our problems, there's not much they can do when the DVLA keeps changing their negotiators.

Another route to try to make progress with this business could be to write to the following:-
The Rt Hon Sir Greg Knight MP,
House of Commons,
London,SW1AOAA.
He is the Chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group.

,

Location: Sheffield

A record breaking 355000 car registration "private numbers" issued by the DVLA this year according to recent media reports. Has this any bearing on the sluggish progress of allowing age-related plates for old vehicles? There will not be any age related plates left soon.Plenty pennies earned by DVLA flogging "private numbers" and no money to be earned by them sorting out age-related.
Could this be the DVLA's hidden agenda or am I just a cynical old......?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

I don't think that there's any risk of the supply of age-related registrations.

Many authorities issued few, if any, four-digit, two-letter or three-digit, three letter registrations.

I rather fancy making a pair - the current rebuild project having 4985 VJ, alongside VJ 4985 on my existing RP would look quite cool!

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E" not a "T".

Only in as much as that's where the money is, so that's presumably where the resource goes. Old cars cost DVLA resource with zero income.

No representation without taxation perhaps?

C

Sir Philip Greed seems to have done ok by having quite a large amount of influence on the UK and his UK ex employees without contributing much into HM's coffers. I have a cold so I can't do "n's"
Sorry, just a miserable old.......
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

DVLA GAVE IT AN AGE RELATED NUMBER THEN CANCEL IT 2 YEARS LATER SAYING IT NEED TO HAVE A Q NUMBER.

Austin 8 open top tourer.. rebuilt and drives well For Sale (1946)£3500 OR OFFER

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C783930
This vehicle is a real eye catcher and a fun car in good running order. Built from a 1946 year four door saloon using all the original chassis,engine,gearbox,steering box and axles. DVLA originally gave it an age related plate as it was registered for two years as a tourer, now they have decided that it should be a Q plate. Converted to 12 volt with an old fashioned type claxon fitted. Old tax discs and correspondence plus spares included in the sale....Quick sale, Space required.

Location: Eaqst Sussex

I wonder what triggered the DVLA to re-classify this vehicle?

I rather assumed that once you were on the road and registered, that was the end of it.

Simon

Location: On a hill in Wiltshire

[quote="Slack Alice" Simon]I wonder what triggered the DVLA to re-classify this vehicle?

I rather assumed that once you were on the road and registered, that was the end of it.

Simon[/quote]

That's what the Bugatti people thought!

Location: Derby

That's what the Bugatti people thought! [/quote]

Bugatti people make a very small percentage of the DVLA clamp down, They have a lot of Classic 60' and 70' to deal with.

Location: East Sussex

[quote="Slack Alice" Simon]I wonder what triggered the DVLA to re-classify this vehicle?

I rather assumed that once you were on the road and registered, that was the end of it.

Simon[/quote]

Seems that most cars that have their V5C cancelled as a result of the owner wanting to sell the registration. Wanting to do this triggers an inspection of the car, anything not quite right 8 points wise means that not only can you not transfer the plate, but that you lose the right to the existing registration too.

If that was the case with this car, the inspector may have judged that the Austin Eight is a monocoque vehicle, so cutting the roof off means it has a modified chassis which equals a Q plate -usually only granted after passing a BIVA test.

Location: N W Kent

But if the DVLA had issued an age-related number two years ago, this would have been done on a non-transferable basis ...

I have heard this stated before, and it may be DVLA policy. However, I have two cars with age related plates, nothing on either V5C saying that the registrations are non-transferable.

Location: N W Kent

Interesting ... Perhaps yours have somehow slipped the net! Over the years I have had numerous cars with re-issued age-related numbers - a quick count makes it eight, but I think I have missed a couple! - and they have all been issued on a non-transferable basis(the earliest I can recall dates back to the mid-1980s). So perhaps this Austin Eight may have also slipped through with a transferable number, in which case the owner should have left well alone ...

Like a few other Austin owners trying to retain their original registration numbers( in my case HU xxxx) I was fobbed off by DVLA and given an BF xxxx number ., supposedly an age related number , but further research has revealed that BF was last issued in 1904 and was withdrawn as the county set in Dorsetshire objected to having a number plate that inferred they were Bloody fools!

I've seen lots of other BF xxxx numbers recently now on Austin 7's and wonder if DVLA have decided Austin enthusiasts are all Bloody Fools!

"Under the Motor Car Act, 1903 the Local Government Board allocated BF to Dorsetshire. These letters did not find favour with some local motorists( ed : as BF was regarded as a short version of Bloody Fool!) and representations were made by the Dorset Automobile Association in 1903, the County Council applied for a change, which was permitted and by an LGB Order of 27/12/04 the mark FX was assigned.

The order did not require existing marks to be changed, but it provided that the owner could have the mark FX substituted for BF on giving notice to the county council.The last BF registration originally alloted was BF 162 on 20Dec 1994.

42 car owners and 41 motorcycle owners did not change their registration letters, but any remaining on the roads on 1/1/1921 were re-registered with FX numbers, since BF was not allocated under the Roads Act 1920 "

The above information quoted from Philip Riden's useful booklet "How to trace the History of Your Car" published in 1991.

I think I might write again to DVLA and claim my "legal" right to get an FX number, quoting the Dorsetshire precedent!

No doubt the HU xxxx I should have been allocated will now be sold for £1500? In the regular DVLA auction?as they say follow the money.

Bill G

Sent from my iPhone

Location: ScottishBorder

They only sell previously unallocated numbers

HU was a Bristol registration .

Location: Bristol

Has anyone been through the re-registration process recently with a standard car/project that has no paper evidence?

Location: Fife

Hi Ian

I knew it was an early Bristol number and wrote to the City Museums who hold some incomplete registration records.
They kindly supplied me with a copy of a receipt showing the HUxxxx vehicle record being transferred to Argyllshire , where the car was purchased/taxed by the owner I bought it from, Along with a 1976 Tax disc and MOT. But DVLA said I had not linked the 1925registration to the 1925 chassis no!

I asked them how many 1925 HU cars were transferred from Bristol to Argyll in 1976!!!!!!!! There seems to be no way to appeal either , so I gave up and accepted an age related BF( aka Dorsetshire Bloody Fool) number which now appear regularly on Austins and even on Bugatti's . What irony!

If it had been a BG number then I would have been happy!

Regards

Bill G

Location: Scottish Border

Classic Car Weekly

DVLA 'SWAMPED' BY
BARN FIND ENQUIRIES
Barn finds are increasingly common - but some might hide sinister pasts

leading group of experts are calling on the DVLA to do more about barn find-related car crime.
The IAATI says it's currently too easy for criminals to steal cars, and have them re-registered as barn finds with the DVLA.
The institute reports that criminals are stealing classics and with minimal questioning from the DVLA, can get the car re-registered.
Communications director Dr Ken German says: 'There's been a lot of barn finds being pumped through the DVLA's enquiry office lately. Unfortunately, the system is being abused by thieves. It's becoming far too easy to have stolen cars reregistered as barn finds. Most of the time, if you have a registration for it you will probably get an age-related numberplate for the car. 'All the things the DVLA are supposed to check seemingly aren't getting checked. It appears as long as someone has an old buff log book, they can get the forms through.

The DVLA has fought back against the criticisms, stating that although situations like this may happen, it's not a common occurrence. David Whitbread, media relations officer for the DVLA, says: 'We've not seen any rise in these situations - in fact, we haven't seen much change in tlie number of registration of barn finds.

Auction analyst Richard Hudson Evans thinks it's common sense that some barn finds aren't legitimate. He says: I am amazed they keep coming out the woodwork. Where do they all keep coming from? Interestingly, many so-called barn finds end up making serious money because they're popular at the moment. A lot of people like the idea of themselves being the first people to restore a car.
Silverstone auctions have had big success with barn finds, even selling £1 million-worth of them at its sale at the 2014 Lancaster Insurance Classic Motor Show.
Bosses from the company insist
that these types of cars go through stringent checks to ensure they don't have a chequered past. A spokesperson says: "All of our cars go through vigorous vetting
including HPI checks.

HOW TO REGISTER A BARN FIND

It must be built from genuine
period components from more
than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification.

The appropriate vehicle owners' club for the vehicle must inspect the vehicle and confirm in writing that it has been inspected, is a true reflection of the marque, and is comprised of genuine period components all over 25 years old.

They must also give manufacture dates for the major components.

The DVLA will assign an agerelated registration number to
the vehf'de based on the youngest component used.

It must be a true reflection of
the marque.

Location: South London

September the 23rd, now the first anniversary of the DVLA/FBHVC meeting concerning age related registration etc. No progress reported from either concern apparently. Anyone know otherwise?
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Two months has passed since inspection and one month since receiving DVLA letter of confirmation of inspection.
Nothing at all yet.

Very very fustrating

Location: East Sussex

According to issue 4/2016 of the FBHVC newsletter,progress relating to new bodies on original chassis in order to obtain an age related registration number has been zero. We are advised by FBHVC to remain patient (again).
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Classic Car Weekly 26/10/16

FBHVC AT WAR WITH DVLA
Our roving newshound takes the pulse of a Federation battling to get the best for classic owners

The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs is at loggerheads with the DVLA over registration plates. So much so, it has called for an emergency discussion with Minister of State for Transport John Hayes. Dealing with the DVLA has proved immensely difficult over the past year/ FBHVC director of legislation, Bob Owen told the Federation's annual meeting at the British Motor Museum on 15 October.
One particular problem, CCW understands, is the V765 scheme, under which vehicles not on the DVLA database can be reunited with their original registrations. This is not working as intended.
Owen said a meeting with Hayes,whose responsibilities include looking at historic vehicle policy is on the cards 'imminently*.
Other serious concerns to be discussed will be the Government's consultation document on the proposed exemption of further classics from MoT testing. Owen emphasised that the problem was not with»the people at the DVLA but the systems it now worked under. We really do get on well with them and we really do believe they are trying to do their best for the classic movement but we are pretty uncomfortable with their policies/ says Owen.
The situation has worsened since the closure of local offices when a revisiting of the DVLA's policies had taken place.
The DVLA thinks it has merely tightened up existing processes but we strongly disagree and believe what in certain respects what has been introduced is new policy.
There were a lot more "yes" or "no" decisions rather than careful consideration of issues/ adds Owen.
The Agency also came under fire after it was revealed that various classic marques were not included on the DVLA database. The problem, which affected applications for vehicle tax, had not been resolved.

Location: Berkshire

OVER 3 MONTHS SINCE THE INSPECTION, HAVE NOT HEARD FROM DVLA.

Location: Esst Sussex

I suggest you start getting the big guns firing - contact your local MP, and also write direct to John Hayes MP (Minister responsible for DVLA): three months and failing to react to an inspection of their own instigation is totally unacceptable. If that was a commercial organisation they would be out of business by now!

I understand and respect DVLA's wish to tighten up Historic registrations - I think some of the vehicles which have been given Historic status should, indeed, be reclassified. But DVLA's handling of the situation has been appalling, and it's about time someone was taken to task ...

Liam,
Rt.Hon. John Hayes MP,
House of Commons,
London,
SW1A 0AA.
Tel 020 7219 1389
Email hayesj@parliament.uk
I have written to Andrew Jones MP the previous holder of this post and to Sir Greg Knight, the All Party Parliamenary Historic Vehicle Comittee chairman. This was February 2016 for the former and early April for the latter. Andrew Jones passed my letter to the DVLA who responded with "There has been no change to the DVLA's policies around the registration of historic vehicles". Sir Greg's response was that he is "currently making enquiries into cases similar to yours" My case is the new body on original chassis problem. I will now write to John Hayes MP.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

I have today received a personally signed letter from the Rt. Hon. Greg Knight MP, Chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Group.

I quote:

" I refer to your email of the 18th December last year and have noted what you and many others have said on the subject of change of attitude at the DVLA.

I now have had a very detailed, useful and constructive meeting with the new Minister of State with responsibility for the DVLA, John Hayes MP and senior officials.

Following this meeting, the DVLA have promised to look again at any decisions they may have made which is felt are dubious or wrong, and if you are aware of anyone who currently feels aggrieved, please do not hesitate to let me know as I did say I would filter back specific cases where an injustice may have occurred.

I obviously hope that are currently no specific problems you are aware of, but if there are, then now is your opportunity to let me know and I will pursue the matter further.

I am pursuing this as a general issue of concern to the All Party Group, which I chair. "

Best wishes,
Your sincerely
Greg Knight ( signed

All replies to the above via House of Commons, London. SW1A 0AA.

Location: Melton Mowbray

Chris,

I've received 3 personally signed letters from Sir Greg Knight, all as non-committal and evasive of the issues as the one you've received.

My 4th letter dated 29/02/2016....

Dear Sir Greg,

Thank you for your letter dated 19th February this year and I appreciate enormously your efforts to secure a satisfactory outcome to the problems we face with the DVLA’s current attitude.

I would like to bring to your notice a potential problem with the FBHVC’s participation in the ongoing discussions with the DVLA. I would also like to make it clear from the outset that I have nothing but admiration for the good work that the FBHVC does in other areas but, in this instance, I’m concerned that the Federation’s representation is not entirely unbiased and consciously side-lines the issue of Special building.

The Charter of Turin was ratified in 2013 and the FBHVC hailed this as a triumph of good sense.
As the Senior Vice-President of FIVA at the time and latterly, Head of the FIA’s Commission Historique Internationale Legislation Working Party was David Whale, current Chairman of the FBHVC, the Federation’s rather nebulous position in the present crisis with the DVLA, comes as no surprise.
David Whale’s stated ‘holistic’ approach to the ‘wider ranging global status of historic vehicles’ (in other words a ‘fits-all’ solution) is precisely what the historic vehicle movement in this country doesn’t need.

There is no doubt that the DVLA have sought to adopt the Charter’s definition of an historic vehicle and there is evidence for the FBHVC’s tacit support for the DVLA’s new regime and the Charter’s malignant content.

I would argue that Special builders have less interest in (but no less respect for) the historic status of their creations than owners of production vehicles and would likely be quite happy to forego the privileges associated with conventionally bodied historic vehicles; road tax is not a huge imposition and an MoT test, many regard as a must in any case. The DVLA have overlooked any provision for the accommodation of this class of vehicle and this wilful cultural cleansing, promoted by the insidious Charter of Turin, must not go unchallenged.

Perhaps in your group’s upcoming Historic vehicle run to Westminster, you might consider inviting Specials as a theme?

Yours Sincerely

.... Sir Greg has yet to reply to.

However, the good news is that Bob Owen has dug up government guidelines which make a clear distinction regarding the understanding of the identity of a vehicle with a chassis and one of monocoque construction.

Let's see them get out of that one.

Location: Gulf of Finland just now

I also have received a copy of this letter today.

''I refer to your email of the 6th February this year and have noted what you and many others have said on the subject of change of attitude at the DVLA.'' etc.

Now we know that there are memberers of this forum who are still experiencing difficulties with lengthy ongoing applications for registration, so perhaps they would/should like to contact Sir Greg advising of their current situation / problems.

There are still the issues also for those who have replacement bodies who are still stuck in a blackhole / timewarp and are still being advised by clubs car auhentication officers to hold off seeking a period registration (myself included via Mike Burgess -Austin Seven Owners Club) until the situation is resolved / clarified.
Is there any progress on this front? I have been holding off my rebuild because of the above hiatus and really would like to make a start but am still wondering if there is any point.

Last I heard was that FBHVC were still pursuing talks with DVLA.
See below from latest newsletter no.5 2016
''It is actually not a surprise, given that there has been so much
general political turmoil over the last two months, that there
has been no progress on DVLA matters since the last Newsletter,
though I realise it must be frustrating for those still affected by
current DVLA policies. As Ian tells you, normal day-to-day contact
with DVLA on specific matters continues nevertheless. I need to
ask you to bear with us for a further period. We have not in any
way ceased our efforts, nor do we intend to do so.''

So still somewhat depressing.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom

Nigel said :
''However, the good news is that Bob Owen has dug up government guidelines which make a clear distinction regarding the understanding of the identity of a vehicle with a chassis and one of monocoque construction.''

One ray of hope in this whole mess perhaps.
Steve V.

Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom