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Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

I'm not sure what benefit there would have been to having a unit smaller than the first 803cc a-series.

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Dave Prior
I'm not sure what benefit there would have been to having a unit smaller than the first 803cc a-series.


Mainly to power a potential Post-War Seven replacement below the A30 such as a the A20 project or lower-end Mini instead of the rough 2-cylinder A-Series and experimental Ehrlich 2-Stroke proposals.

Some believe that the costs of the later Mini's FWD layout could have been significantly reduced with a more compact inline-4 engine then the existing larger A-Series.

Have read quite a few Austin Seven owners using Reliant OHV engines that are essentially downscaled 803cc Standard-Triumph SC engines (albeit cast in aluminum), which given the 803cc SC's similarities with the 803cc A-Series suggests that Austin (later BMC) was capable of producing a similar compact engine potentially some 50-60kg lighter then the A-Series even without use of aluminum.

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

I assume that a very small engine wasn't required because there was simply no longer a worthwhile UK market for a low-powered baby car - hence no A20.

Location: Herefordshire, with an "E" not a "T".

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

I think you have to look a bit further on than just Austin 7 or 8 replacements. The A series went on to power a wide variety of vehicles and was in production for a long time growing from 803cc to 1275cc sturdy, reliable and tunable the A series was and still is a good all round engine, it would seem in the long run the A series was the right choice, had a smaller lighter engine been developed it would have probably not have been so adaptable and as such a waist of resources in the long run.

Location: Pembrokeshire.

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Martin Prior
I assume that a very small engine wasn't required because there was simply no longer a worthwhile UK market for a low-powered baby car - hence no A20.


In the case of the A20 the limiting factor was the 2-stroke engine though admittingly the light Microcar segment in the UK could have been much more broader and less draconian in terms of regulations (e.g. only 3-wheels, no reverse gear, etc).

A compact 600-750cc OHV 4-cylinder engine below the A-Series would have also benefited Austin Seven owners after a more modern in-house alternative to the Reliant OHV, which would be a true spiritual successor to the pre-war Side-Valve unit.

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Phil Kingdom
I think you have to look a bit further on than just Austin 7 or 8 replacements. The A series went on to power a wide variety of vehicles and was in production for a long time growing from 803cc to 1275cc sturdy, reliable and tunable the A series was and still is a good all round engine, it would seem in the long run the A series was the right choice, had a smaller lighter engine been developed it would have probably not have been so adaptable and as such a waist of resources in the long run.


You are right, a lighter more compact engine would have really only been useful to the Mini and related models (despite enabling the Mini to carry over more then just the Austin Seven name) as opposed to the various models the A-Series engine would go on to power over the course of its production life.

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

I had one of the two stroke prototype Ehrlich engines for a short while in the early 90s, with a view to getting it running. It was owned by the A30 / 35 owners club. Work commitments prevented me making a start, though I had set about trying to find suitable piston rings as they were missing. It was a most unusual beast, and if I remember correctly there were two pairs of cylinders, each pair with v shaped con rod with a big end onto the crank journal and the second piston articled on a smaller joint just above the big end. Two pistons thus operated together. I don't think there were four plugs. I believe each head allowed one spark plug to ignite the mixture across a combined combustion chamber. In truth, I think the complexity of the engine put me off starting the rebuild. The club's publicity officer took the engine to show at a club rally but told me his work's transit van had been stolen, the diesel engine removed from the front and the Ehrlich engine from the back. Secretly I have always hoped it will turn up in someone's private collection. Such a shame if it was scrapped by some ignorant trasi(en)t driver.

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Nick
It was a most unusual beast, and if I remember correctly there were two pairs of cylinders, each pair with v shaped con rod with a big end onto the crank journal and the second piston articled on a smaller joint just above the big end. Two pistons thus operated together. I don't think there were four plugs. I believe each head allowed one spark plug to ignite the mixture across a combined combustion chamber.


Two stroke, v shaped con rods? Sounds vaguely Trojanesque?

Location: Fishbourne near Chichester

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Hi Michael

I had a quick look at the Trojan con rod. Not entirely discimilar except much more compact and the previously mentioned joint on one half of the V that allowed the two twinned pistons to move parallel in their bores.
If you do a Google image search, there's an image of a sectioned engine that shows the set up. My memory of the V shape probably the result of it being out on the kitchen table!

Regards
Nick

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

This is a very interesting read - It makes me think of an Opal I have seen pictures of on the web but not located any further information about which sounds close to what you are talking about - a 1938 Opal with apparently an A35 A-series and presumably gearbox?

Perhaps similar to what could have been if production / development had continued post-war?

 photo a35 engine3.jpg

 photo a35 engine1.jpg

Location: Whangarei, New Zealand

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Nick
I had one of the two stroke prototype Ehrlich engines for a short while in the early 90s, with a view to getting it running. It was owned by the A30 / 35 owners club. Work commitments prevented me making a start, though I had set about trying to find suitable piston rings as they were missing. It was a most unusual beast, and if I remember correctly there were two pairs of cylinders, each pair with v shaped con rod with a big end onto the crank journal and the second piston articled on a smaller joint just above the big end. Two pistons thus operated together. I don't think there were four plugs. I believe each head allowed one spark plug to ignite the mixture across a combined combustion chamber. In truth, I think the complexity of the engine put me off starting the rebuild. The club's publicity officer took the engine to show at a club rally but told me his work's transit van had been stolen, the diesel engine removed from the front and the Ehrlich engine from the back. Secretly I have always hoped it will turn up in someone's private collection. Such a shame if it was scrapped by some ignorant trasi(en)t driver.


Fascinating, was the Ehrlich 2-stroke prototype a side-valve or OHV engine since a few books have made differing claims?

Shame to hear about the engine being stolen before you had a chance to get it running, assuming it was one of the later prototype engines it would have been interesting to find about how much of an improvement the later 670cc unit was compared with the earlier 20 hp 500cc unit and whether the seizing up issue was ever solved.

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Bob

Fascinating, was the Ehrlich 2-stroke prototype a side-valve or OHV engine since a few books have made differing claims?


Unless I'm missing something, no valves in a two stroke...

Here's the Trojan cutaway:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=two+stroke+engine&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1731&bih=869&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtoL75n6LOAhWKlxoKHYOWCiQQsAQIPQ#safe=off&tbm=isch&q=trojan+two+stroke+engine&imgrc=xSZUurc9iYquKM%3A

I spent a long time thinking about getting a Trojan, fascinated by the whole approach, but then decided that life was too short!

Location: Fishbourne near Chichester

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Alex Disher
This is a very interesting read - It makes me think of an Opal I have seen pictures of on the web but not located any further information about which sounds close to what you are talking about - a 1938 Opal with apparently an A35 A-series and presumably gearbox?

Perhaps similar to what could have been if production / development had continued post-war?

 photo a35 engine3.jpg

 photo a35 engine1.jpg


Possibly, via perhaps an earlier downscaled version of the Austin A40 Devon unit?

Eric Bareham apparently laid down preliminary dimensions for a new 7 hp Side-Valve engine during the war along with an overhead-valve version of the 900cc Austin 8 hp side-valve engine (even an experimental 3-cylinder at one point derived from the 8 hp unit).

It seems that a post-war 7 hp 800cc Side-Valve engine was still under consideration prior to what eventually became the A-Series.

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Michael Herridge
Bob

Fascinating, was the Ehrlich 2-stroke prototype a side-valve or OHV engine since a few books have made differing claims?


Unless I'm missing something, no valves in a two stroke...

Here's the Trojan cutaway:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=two+stroke+engine&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1731&bih=869&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtoL75n6LOAhWKlxoKHYOWCiQQsAQIPQ#safe=off&tbm=isch&q=trojan+two+stroke+engine&imgrc=xSZUurc9iYquKM%3A

I spent a long time thinking about getting a Trojan, fascinated by the whole approach, but then decided that life was too short!


My bad, just that in Graham Robson's A-Series book it for some reason refers to the water-cooled 670cc Ehrlich 2-stroke as a simple side-valve engine.

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Hi Alex,
Looks like a very dice place for the Fuel pump.


colin south of whangarei

Location: TINOPAI NZ

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments


People here seem to be suggesting an engine smaller than the 803cc. I have always wondered why the engine was as small as 803. It soon enlarged into the more powerful 948cc which was presumably what the public wanted.
Maybe Austin made the right decision to leave the very small car manufacture to the likes of Reliant, Bond and Issetta.

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

That's my thinking Andrew. The 803 was short-lived because it was simply too small. On a side note I would argue that the A30/35 and the Mini were the spiritual successors to the Austin 7,(which after all had got consistently larger in its production run) and Austin would have had very little success with anything smaller.

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Colin Reed
Hi Alex,
Looks like a very dice place for the Fuel pump.


colin south of whangarei


Agreed! There are a couple of odd things about the conversion including the fuel pump, the downdraft SU's, the distance between the radiator and fanblade is pretty large, and the radiator seems to have been moved forward a fair way too. The sump would need to be pretty weird to get the engine far enough forward to necessitate moving the radiator though. Intriguing though, I'd love to know more about it...

Location: Whangarei, New Zealand

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

From personal experience, the 803cc engine was OK in an A30, but very under powered in the Series 2 Morris Minor - probably why it was short lived, though the later A35 vans had an 850cc version (I think) which was quite sufficient.

I very much doubt the Opal with the gold seal A series is anything other than a later engine transplant. A friend had a very early Austin (I don't remember what) with a similar engine and was faced with the predicament of trying to find a period replacement or continuing to enjoy power, reliability etc, etc.

on that note, I believe the DVLA rules allow a later engine from the same manufacturer to be fitted to a vehicle, where the original is hard to replace. I seem to remember Honda and Rover cars being similar at one point. Does this mean I can pop a VFR750 engine in my Speedex without having to re-register it on a Q?

Oh and being a 2 stroke the air cooled Ehrlich engine was ported - no valves, with one of the twinned pistons sorting the inlet and the other the exhaust.

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/pictures/this-engine-was-produced-by-dr-j-ehrlich-in-england-in-1946-news-photo-90744958#this-engine-was-produced-by-dr-j-ehrlich-in-england-in-1946-he-had-picture-id90744958


Regards, Nick

Location: Essex

Re: Pre-War Seven Replacement Proposals and Engine Developments

Alex Disher
Colin Reed
Hi Alex,
Looks like a very dice place for the Fuel pump.


colin south of whangarei


Agreed! There are a couple of odd things about the conversion including the fuel pump, the downdraft SU's, the distance between the radiator and fanblade is pretty large, and the radiator seems to have been moved forward a fair way too. The sump would need to be pretty weird to get the engine far enough forward to necessitate moving the radiator though. Intriguing though, I'd love to know more about it...


I will put up a new post with some photos of "New development Austin" which Colin and others may find interesting
Dennis

Location: NW Devon