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Re: what is a genuine ulster.

I'm relatively new to Austin Sevens, however the issue of what constitutes a "genuine" Ulster has similarities to another area of classics. A number of years ago, a New York woman named Elizabeth Meyer found the beautiful J Class America's Cup Challenger, "Endeavour" resting in a mud birth in England. Meyer resurrected the yacht spending substantial sums to have the boat completely rebuilt. Unfortunately, the hull and near all the ribs and stringer were comprised by sitting for so long. In the end, the only original parts that could be retained were the stem and part of the keel. All other parts were fabricated using original parts for patterns. The question remains, "Is this still Endeavour I, or a replica using some original parts?'

Location: Sunny Seattle

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

peter williams
Thanks for your reply,sorry to say it appears I am no closer to the answer.
I assume the ulster and the unicorn are very similar.


Written in 1986-

"As the years roll on, genuine Ulsters are becoming less in numbers and difficult to find, so inevitably Ulster Replicas (which should perhaps be called A7 Specials?) have been constructed, with facsimile bodywork, power increased perhaps by the use of downdraught carburation, etc. and not always with the dropped front-axle. Incidentally, these "facsimile" Ulster, bodies are comrnendably accurate, that on my car, make unknown, being within half-an-inch of the cockpit dimensions of the original, which were a body width of 36 in, a seat-squab depth of 23 in and a windscreen-to-seat squab distance 01 31 in.

But these "imitation" cars continue the fun owners of the genuine article enjoyed in contemporary times, spares are plentiful. A7s are easy to house. and the tyre problem is non-existent, with the availability of those excellent 3.50 v 19 Avon Triple Duty Mk II sidecar-tyres. Long may the fun continue ... W. B.

N.B. It is difficult to obtain production figures for the Ulster A7; one source suggests a total of 170, of which perhaps 50 would have been blown cars: but this contrasts oddly with 1,402 Gordon England Cup Models sold in two years. For identification of those mentioned, some of the Reg. No. are Press demonstrators (unblown). OG 1845, GO 6302:Barnes 1928 unblown TT car, ER 3410:1929 blown TT team cars, OF 1857.0F 3128. OF 3129, OF 3130:Conway's first blown car, OG 9262: R. G. Shattock's first unblown Ulster. 089331.

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

Peter,
I suppose they are similar in that they each have one horn only. I think the unicorn may be a little more expensive.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

My Supercharged Ulster is reckoned to be one of the few Ulsters still in existence in original form (see Chris Gould's Booklet and Bryan Purves's Source Book). Having said that, Vince Leek and I created a replica engine which is currently fitted in the car at its present Brooklands Museum location. 200 Ulsters were produced 150 with normally aspirated and 50 with supercharged engines. At the time of their production they cost £185 for the former and and £225 for the supercharged version. BHP was around 24 for a car with a normally aspirated engine and 33 for a car with a supercharged one. They are strictly called EA Sports 2 Seaters and only acquired the name 'Ulster' following their success in the 1929 Ulster Tourist Trophy Race. Their rarity possibly stems from the fact that many were raced often to destruction, my car VE4492 was spared being thrashed by being owned by a couple of relatively conscientious owners. Tragically, the second owner's son was killed in a car accident it is thought in the late 1930s (thankfully not in the Ulster) and he subsequently laid the car up in a dry barn for the following 30 years, where it was then re-discovered. Hope this answers your question. James

Location: Ferring, West Sussex

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

The Austin Motor Co did not refer to the 'Ulster' as a EA Sports but merely as the Austin Seven Sports Model in the three sales leaflets they issued, 730, 730A and 730B. In the written specification in these leaflets they are also referred to as Super Sports. The leaflets issued in early 1930, late 1930 and 1931 respectively differ only in the list of race successes on the final fold out page.

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

By late 1931 they were being referred to as 'Ulsters' by private and trade sellers in the small ads at the back of Motor, Autocar and Light Car and Cyclecar magazines

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

Further to my previous entry, I've unearthed a 5 page List of Cars and Engine/Chassis Numbers that came with my car that dates from the 1960's (I think as it's undated) and sadly it is also unsigned. It lists my car as 'yet to be traced', which would tie the list in with the date 'the car was re-discovered'. A quick review suggests that about 50 intact 'genuine cars' exist but not necessarily with matching chassis and engine numbers (as mine does with its original engine in the process of re-building). The list also covers 'Single Seat Racers', 'TT' Cars and Super-sports that cannot be regarded as 'Ulsters', so I've not included them in my approximate estimation. If, like mine, the 'other cars yet to be traced' were in fact found, it would increase the number to 55 known Ulsters remaining. Obviously 'the list' needs to be updated possibly by the current Sports Registrar.

Location: Ferring, West Sussex

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

Erich Volkstorf
I'm relatively new to Austin Sevens, however the issue of what constitutes a "genuine" Ulster has similarities to another area of classics. A number of years ago, a New York woman named Elizabeth Meyer found the beautiful J Class America's Cup Challenger, "Endeavour" resting in a mud birth in England. Meyer resurrected the yacht spending substantial sums to have the boat completely rebuilt. Unfortunately, the hull and near all the ribs and stringer were comprised by sitting for so long. In the end, the only original parts that could be retained were the stem and part of the keel. All other parts were fabricated using original parts for patterns. The question remains, "Is this still Endeavour I, or a replica using some original parts?'


Still Endeavour, as it occupies the same physical space. I think.

Location: Richmond, Texas

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

Roger French
Erich Volkstorf
I'm relatively new to Austin Sevens, however the issue of what constitutes a "genuine" Ulster has similarities to another area of classics. A number of years ago, a New York woman named Elizabeth Meyer found the beautiful J Class America's Cup Challenger, "Endeavour" resting in a mud birth in England. Meyer resurrected the yacht spending substantial sums to have the boat completely rebuilt. Unfortunately, the hull and near all the ribs and stringer were comprised by sitting for so long. In the end, the only original parts that could be retained were the stem and part of the keel. All other parts were fabricated using original parts for patterns. The question remains, "Is this still Endeavour I, or a replica using some original parts?'


Still Endeavour, as it occupies the same physical space. I think.


Denis Jenkinson said:

"Original"
Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have to
have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the
Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes as close to an
original racing car as it is possible to get.
The “old-car” industry frequently uses degrees of originality, such as
“nearly original”, “almost original”, even “completely original”, but all
such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing
car that has only had a new set of tyres and a change of sparking plugs
since it was completed is no longer “original”. Many components have
remained “original”, such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles and so on,
and reproduction parts are made to “original drawings” and “original
material specification”, but this does not make them “original” parts, nor
does a complete car built from such components qualify as “original”,
regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is
nothing more than a “reproduction” or “facsimile”.

"Genuine"
This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and
can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous
lives, with no occasions when they “disappeared into limbo” or changed
their character in any way. Most E.R.A.s come into this category as they
have been raced continuously, which has meant the replacing of
numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never
been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been
altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A. as “Romulus” is
not “original”, as it has been repainted, reupholstered, new tyres have
been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine;
but it is unquestionably “Genuine”.

"Authentic"
This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered
career, through no fault of its own, but has never disappeared from
view. The “Entity”, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has
always been around in some form or other, but has now been put back
to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some
subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old
Grand Prix car that was converted into a road-going sports car when its
useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine
replaced by a touring version, and eventually being allowed to
deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its
racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank,
new wheels made, new bodywork, instrument panel, seat, upholstery
and so on, all of which were missing. The “Entity” that started life as the
Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the
labours can justifiably be described as “Authentic”. There is no question
of it being “Original”, and to describe it as genuine would be unfair to its
sister cars that remained Grand Prix cars all their lives, even though
such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due
to the ravages of time and use.

"Resurrection"
Some racing cars, when they reached the end of their useful life, were
abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use
on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an
acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still
scattered about. There have been numerous cases where such
components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a
new car; a new chassis frame and new body were required and, from the
bare bones of the ashes or the original, another one appears. It cannot
claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an
authentic car. At best it is a “Resurrection” from the dead, or from the
graveyard.

"Re-construction"
This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of
components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of
the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these
small particles a complete new car is built, its only connection with the
original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left
over when decomposition set in.

"Facsimile"
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an
original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model,
for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only
be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built
by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at
best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars, but such a situation
is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from
sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is
remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of
genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its
value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to
Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from
the originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent
about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real
thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the
constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type
E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built.
The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous
owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car,
and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is
very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the
paying public are gullible.

"Special"
This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain
of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever
been finished! It may be finished sufficiently to allow it to race, but
inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he
is still racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it
will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting on a new one.
The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car,
by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean either that the
car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or
he can continue the process of development where the originator left off.
The nice thing about specials is that they are a law unto themselves and
do not need to be put into any sort of category. A special can be totally
accepted as “Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or facsimile”.

"Duplication"
This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the
lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix
Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an
incomplete car as a “basket case” and with the left hand sold another
incomplete car as a “box of bits”. The two buyers eventually found
suitable second-hand components to replace the missing parts, or had
new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand Prix Bugattis where
there has only been one. Naturally each owner claims “authenticity” for
his complete car. The Bugatti Owners Club – and the majority of its
members – strongly disapprove of this practice.
Unfortunately the disease has spread to many other makes, especially
those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business
borders on fraud.

"Destroyed"
A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved
in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in
recognizable shape or form.

"Scrapped"
This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team
and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful
components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on
the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a
chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap and used to re-create a
new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the
factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, than
that car has gone for ever, and a nebulous collection of old and new
components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number.

"Broken up"
Similarly, if a factory records that a car has been broken up, it should
mean exactly that. It has gone for good.

"Converted"
There have been examples of a Type A model being converted by the
factory into a Type B and then a Type C. The particular car as an entity
never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognize that the Type
C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car
back to a Type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect
example is the E.R.A. that started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to
R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in
1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well-documented continuous
history, and is as genuine as they come but it can never revert back to
R4B."

Location: London

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

THANKS for posting that description brilliant.
Just Shows that to many people are more concerned with the value of the Car rather than Driving and enjoying them

Location: TINOPAI NZ

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

Just a footnote to David's post.

A little while back I owned a 1925 Rolls-Royce 20hp, RR did not actually make complete cars and only sold a driving chassis at this time, The customer purchased the chassis from RR and then had a choice of recommended coachbuilders, in this case it was Barkers. The car stayed in this form till 1936 when it was rebodied by The Southern Motor Company as a three position drop head coupe, Southern and other company's sold these as replica Rolls-Royces, the only modifications done to the original chassis was a new lower radiator surround,P100 headlights and smaller diameter wheels fitted to give it the modern look,the rest of the original chassis was as it left the factory.
This particular car was later to have the Southern body wrecked when it rolled sideways of a trailer, I bought the car in this condition and had a copy of the replica body built using some of the original woodwork.So I ended up with an original as sold RR chassis apart from rad, lights and wheels, a five minute job to put right, fitted with a copy of a replica body. This car is certainly not the car that was first registered in 1925 when it left Barkers, but is as near as possible to the car that was rebuilt by Southern in 1936, the question is would you prefer a rebuilt car to an genuine that will probably need to be repaired and so losing some of its originality probably at great expense sometime in the future.
Most will say a genuine is preferable,but when my body was being rebuilt I visited the workshop and there was a 1920 something Bean there, new paint and upholstery, it looked factory fresh apart from a few small cracks in the paint on further examination the original ash framework was totally rotten and held together with lumps of metal and glass fibre, The owner had paid £15k for it and was now facing a bill of £15k for a new frame and panels. Genuine originality can come with a price!

Location: Pembrokeshire.

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

David cloake
Roger French
Erich Volkstorf
I'm relatively new to Austin Sevens, however the issue of what constitutes a "genuine" Ulster has similarities to another area of classics. A number of years ago, a New York woman named Elizabeth Meyer found the beautiful J Class America's Cup Challenger, "Endeavour" resting in a mud birth in England. Meyer resurrected the yacht spending substantial sums to have the boat completely rebuilt. Unfortunately, the hull and near all the ribs and stringer were comprised by sitting for so long. In the end, the only original parts that could be retained were the stem and part of the keel. All other parts were fabricated using original parts for patterns. The question remains, "Is this still Endeavour I, or a replica using some original parts?'


Still Endeavour, as it occupies the same physical space. I think.


Denis Jenkinson said:

"Original"
Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have to
have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the
Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes as close to an
original racing car as it is possible to get.
The “old-car” industry frequently uses degrees of originality, such as
“nearly original”, “almost original”, even “completely original”, but all
such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing
car that has only had a new set of tyres and a change of sparking plugs
since it was completed is no longer “original”. Many components have
remained “original”, such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles and so on,
and reproduction parts are made to “original drawings” and “original
material specification”, but this does not make them “original” parts, nor
does a complete car built from such components qualify as “original”,
regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is
nothing more than a “reproduction” or “facsimile”.

"Genuine"
This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and
can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous
lives, with no occasions when they “disappeared into limbo” or changed
their character in any way. Most E.R.A.s come into this category as they
have been raced continuously, which has meant the replacing of
numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never
been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been
altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A. as “Romulus” is
not “original”, as it has been repainted, reupholstered, new tyres have
been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine;
but it is unquestionably “Genuine”.

"Authentic"
This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered
career, through no fault of its own, but has never disappeared from
view. The “Entity”, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has
always been around in some form or other, but has now been put back
to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some
subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old
Grand Prix car that was converted into a road-going sports car when its
useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine
replaced by a touring version, and eventually being allowed to
deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its
racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank,
new wheels made, new bodywork, instrument panel, seat, upholstery
and so on, all of which were missing. The “Entity” that started life as the
Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the
labours can justifiably be described as “Authentic”. There is no question
of it being “Original”, and to describe it as genuine would be unfair to its
sister cars that remained Grand Prix cars all their lives, even though
such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due
to the ravages of time and use.

"Resurrection"
Some racing cars, when they reached the end of their useful life, were
abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use
on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an
acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still
scattered about. There have been numerous cases where such
components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a
new car; a new chassis frame and new body were required and, from the
bare bones of the ashes or the original, another one appears. It cannot
claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an
authentic car. At best it is a “Resurrection” from the dead, or from the
graveyard.

"Re-construction"
This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of
components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of
the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these
small particles a complete new car is built, its only connection with the
original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left
over when decomposition set in.

"Facsimile"
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an
original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model,
for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only
be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built
by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at
best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars, but such a situation
is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from
sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is
remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of
genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its
value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to
Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from
the originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent
about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real
thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the
constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type
E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built.
The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous
owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car,
and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is
very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the
paying public are gullible.

"Special"
This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain
of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever
been finished! It may be finished sufficiently to allow it to race, but
inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he
is still racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it
will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting on a new one.
The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car,
by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean either that the
car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or
he can continue the process of development where the originator left off.
The nice thing about specials is that they are a law unto themselves and
do not need to be put into any sort of category. A special can be totally
accepted as “Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or facsimile”.

"Duplication"
This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the
lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix
Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an
incomplete car as a “basket case” and with the left hand sold another
incomplete car as a “box of bits”. The two buyers eventually found
suitable second-hand components to replace the missing parts, or had
new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand Prix Bugattis where
there has only been one. Naturally each owner claims “authenticity” for
his complete car. The Bugatti Owners Club – and the majority of its
members – strongly disapprove of this practice.
Unfortunately the disease has spread to many other makes, especially
those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business
borders on fraud.

"Destroyed"
A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved
in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in
recognizable shape or form.

"Scrapped"
This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team
and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful
components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on
the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a
chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap and used to re-create a
new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the
factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, than
that car has gone for ever, and a nebulous collection of old and new
components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number.

"Broken up"
Similarly, if a factory records that a car has been broken up, it should
mean exactly that. It has gone for good.

"Converted"
There have been examples of a Type A model being converted by the
factory into a Type B and then a Type C. The particular car as an entity
never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognize that the Type
C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car
back to a Type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect
example is the E.R.A. that started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to
R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in
1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well-documented continuous
history, and is as genuine as they come but it can never revert back to
R4B."


I can apreciate what someone has tried to do here. But it can complicate things. For starters I'm buggered if im going to try and remember something like 15 different car condition.

The two that do make sence here, wich are usually used as the same thing, is original and genuine.

Was the original thread trying to find an original Ulster by this description. If so I don't think a car exists.

Or is the thread looking for a genuine car. On this description. I think there are different opinions on what an original car after 90 years.

Tony

Location: HUNCOTE on the pig

Re: what is a genuine ulster.

Strange - I thought this very subject had been flogged to death many years ago on this Forum. As everybody (buyer, seller, owner) seems to have a different interpretation, I'd suggest it will end up again a nil-all draw. Cheers, Bill in Oz

Location: Euroa,Victoria