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Re: Engine Oil Grade

I was in our local Halfords recently, where the chap behind the counter was ex motor trade. He could not swear to it but said he is convinced that Halfords Classic oil is Duckhams Q20-50, because it smells the same and looks the same. I suggest you try the same test, Robin!

Robert Leigh

Location: just north of Cambridge

Re: Engine Oil Grade

I prefer to stay with 20-50 rather than anything thinner. Both my cars have a modern filter, and experience shows that the engine stays clean inside, but the oil I use is cheap rather than traditional brands. Wilko have a good value offering. I used to buy from french hypermarkets because I go over to France frequently, but 20-50 is getting difficult to find there now.

Robert Leigh

Location: just north of Cambridge

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Halfrauds do a 20/50 that has a greenish tinge like Duckhams.....??
I use it in my ZA Magnette & it hold up well at relatively high cruising revs (3500-4000) when the weather is hot (30 C in Germany on the Autobahn for example).
What is the perceived wisdom to deal with an engine (2 bearing crank)that has virtually done nothing for 10 years or so after an apparent rebuild - apart from starting it up & revving the hell out of it!!!!("joke" for anyone reading this & not concentrating!)
David

Location: Stratford upon Avon

Re: Engine Oil Grade

I've always used Comma Classic oil, especially on rebuilt engines. It's not especially cheap but it seems to be a good oil.
I use SAE 40 for summer and SAE 30 for winter but don't do too many miles in a year (yet!)

Location: Near M1 Motorway Jtn 28

Re: Engine Oil Grade

I always use Castrol 30 and 40. The Ulsteroid gets thrashed at hillclimbs and sprints and is still in one piece enginewise. Apparently multigrade oils are not recommended for use with roller bearing crankshafts. I don't know why. It was explained to me once, but I didn't pay attention!
It's worth remembering that oil is cheaper than an engine rebuild. The Ulsteroid's oil is changed as soon as it begins to change colour. Being a typical Austin Seven man, I then bung it in the RN. That's recycling!

Location: Wales

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Taking account of the fact that my RP does about 150 miles to the pint it gets a full oil change every 600 miles or so! I've used Supermarket 20W/50 for years.

Location: Gard, France 30960

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Reckless Rat
Taking account of the fact that my RP does about 150 miles to the pint it gets a full oil change every 600 miles or so! I've used Supermarket 20W/50 for years.



Can't fault the logic!

Location: Near M1 Motorway Jtn 28

Re: Engine Oil Grade

I call it "continuous flow" servicing.

Location: Gard, France 30960

Re: Engine Oil Grade

I only do about 500 to 600 miles a year and have just rebuilt my engine so I am using the Halfords 20/50 as previously mentioned in this string. I can however can see an argument in usinging cheap new clean oil and changing it regularly rather than more expensive oil and running on it for longer. After all the seven engine has no real oil filtration system.

John Mason

Location: Nottinghamshire

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Reckless Rat
Taking account of the fact that my RP does about 150 miles to the pint it gets a full oil change every 600 miles or so! I've used Supermarket 20W/50 for years.



I find it curious that the less oil you put in the engine the less it uses. Topping it up to the top level results in around 100 miles per pint. Let it drop to between the U and the first L of full and oil consumption goes down noticeably.

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Michael
Reckless Rat
Taking account of the fact that my RP does about 150 miles to the pint it gets a full oil change every 600 miles or so! I've used Supermarket 20W/50 for years.



I find it curious that the less oil you put in the engine the less it uses. Topping it up to the top level results in around 100 miles per pint. Let it drop to between the U and the first L of full and oil consumption goes down noticeably.


I too have noticed this, If I keep the level to about 5/32" below the FULL mark then much less is burnt/lost.

Location: Near M1 Motorway Jtn 28

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Some years ago I did a simple test with a kitchen pan and a camping stove.

Put a couple of pints of supermarket 20/50 and heat it to 80C. Make a judgement on how the viscosity changes
Retest with green Duckhams and do the same. They were very noticeably different, reinforcing my view that not all oils are the same! Whether that matters in an Austin Seven, I doubt. On the Fiat I do the same as young Dunford.

I also did the same test with a 50/50 mix of Castrol R and 20/50 and nothing horrible happened, dispelling rumours (and some professional advice) that it would create a gooey mess and that you can never change between the two

Charles

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Millions of vehicles with cylinder pressures, bearing and cam pressures and rubbing speeds, and oil temps vastly more severe than stock Sevens have thrived on 15W/40. I gather ZDTP levels have been reduced in these oils for years, although these grades not required to meet the reduced limits applicable to thinner oils.

The thinner multi grades were adopted to improve mpg. 15W/40 should release an extra mousepower or two.

Bulk viscosity is not the only factor in free running but curiously even at 0C 15W/40 and 20W/50 are thicker then mono 30 (according the book Which Oil). Perhaps one reason for advocating it.

Engine wear rates have hugely reduced since the early 1960s, corresponding API SC and better oils. The cheapest supermarket oils are now SG! To the 1950s my car wore .010 taper over 60,000 miles, much main road running. My guess is that Ruairidhs car at that mileage on modern supermarket oils would show 1/3 the wear or less.

I am curious about the suggested avoidance of multi grades for rolling bearings.

Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: Engine Oil Grade

"Millions of vehicles with cylinder pressures, bearing and cam pressures and rubbing speeds, and oil temps vastly more severe than stock Sevens have thrived on 15W/40. I gather ZDTP levels have been reduced in these oils for years, although these grades not required to meet the reduced limits applicable to thinner oils."

ZDDP was used primarily to improve the life of cams and followers on early vehicles- not cylinder pressures or bearings.

ZPPD was removed to reduce catalyst difficulties.

Modern cams use roller followers so no need for the action of ZDDP.

"The thinner multi grades were adopted to improve mpg. 15W/40 should release an extra mousepower or two"

SAE 15W/40 indicates that the hot oil viscosity is SAE 40 - don't see how this releases any more horsepower than using an SAE 40 oil.

"Bulk viscosity is not the only factor in free running but curiously even at 0C 15W/40 and 20W/50 are thicker then mono 30 (according the book Which Oil). Perhaps one reason for advocating it"

Not sure what you mean?

"Engine wear rates have hugely reduced since the early 1960s, corresponding API SC and better oils. The cheapest supermarket oils are now SG! To the 1950s my car wore .010 taper over 60,000 miles, much main road running. My guess is that Ruairidh's car at that mileage on modern supermarket oils would show 1/3 the wear or less"

As I mentioned above the discussion on oils suitable for vintage engines is not centred on engine wear but the cam/follower wear. Regular early oil change is needed.

"I am curious about the suggested avoidance of multi grades for rolling bearings"

Viscosity index improvers used to produce 'multigrade oils' can be sheared down and reduced in performance by mechanical action- roller bearings provide this mechanical shearing action.
Cheaper oils use less stable VI improvers and are more likely to shear. Replacing the oil at short intervals can help here.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Victoria, Australia.

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Some years ago, a group of us from our local A7 Club went on an evening visit to Millers Oils in nearby Brighouse. We had a very interesting tour and discussion with the technical people there who told us of the tests they had done on other manufacturers products that were marketed as 'Classic Oils'. Whilst they were quite complimentary about most, the were ultra critical of one heavily marketed brand and, in particular, their 20-50 'classic multigrade'. Millers tests indicated that this was at the absolute minimal specification to be marketed as a 20-50 oil and that within only a few hours of testing, it had degraded to 20.

Regretfully, the laws of libel suggest I can't post the name of the manufacturer. All I can say is be careful.

Steve

Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Engine Oil Grade

"Publish & be D####d" said the Duke of Wellington!
If it is fact, fear no libel!
D

Location: Stratford upon Avon

Re: Engine Oil Grade

My thoughts and some figures.
ME - I am a very sceptical person who does copious amounts of research before committing to purchases and using substances (oil/paint etc). I prefer to believe opinions demonstrated to be based on facts.
Apologies if this post runs a bit long.

Engine oil always attracts many and varied comments on forums....most of the comments can be classified as hearsay or unsubstantiated opinions to be ignored!

Modern engine oil has come a very long way since the 30s or even the 80s (when one of my cars was new).

(following ACEA example specifications will be out of date by now)

1. Semi synthetic oil is only mineral oil with a very small amount (1% even) of synthetic content and could be described in the english interpretation as SEMI SYNTHETIC while offering NO benefit to the lubrication of an engine. The words semi-synthetic form no part of a motor oils specification.
The "get out of jail" card for any company using this ploy to make their oil sound better would be to describe such a product as ACEA A2. B2, which is the correct designation for a mineral oil, whereas a genuine SEMI SYNTHETIC would be classified A3. B3.

2. Simplified, a mineral oil will EVAPORATE and loose its goodness far quicker than a synthesised oil. Hence more frequent oil changes (and therefore more wear due to loss of lubrication etc. after a period of use before next oil change).

Have a look at
www.acea.be
Good bedtime reading...to be followed by a good malt whisky!

Additives
Molyslip has been recognised as a good product for a long time now and can be used with good anti-friction/ anti-wear properties in engines, gearboxes,axles etc. I used the Moly grease in my late A7 steering box to transform it from locking up round some corners/roundabouts to being very light at all times.
I used to use it in my 3 lit 135bhp V6 Ford Essex engine/gearbox/overdrive and rear axle. This gave an increased MPG indicating less friction all round.......BUT then I discovered PROLONG AFMT (Anti Friction Metal Treatment)
The company made the usual (fantastic?) claims but were prevented, by the American Authorities, from advertising and selling till they could back up their claims by test results from an independent laboratory. This they did using one of Norway's largest labs for the oil industry SINTEF. I have a copy of the report. The current company in UK is called SYNIONIC (synthesised ionic -name to complement how the product works)
I started using this additive in my Reliant Scimitar instead of the Moly some 26,435 miles ago.
I am one of those nerds that records fuel used and milage. After under 100 miles use with the AFMT the MPG increased and after several thousand miles of unchanged habits it has been confirmed that MPG has increased by a minimum of 2mpg and sometimes 3, or 4.......thus showing less friction in the mechanicals. The saving in fuel cost is one bonus but the main saving is in wear between metal to metal parts....smoother running is also an improvement.
A FURTHER ENDORSEMENT is the test report from the independent UK MIRA laboratory which for example gives in a test:-
39.6% reduction cam lift loss
26.4% reduction in cam weight loss
13.4% reduction in tappet weight loss

A further advantage is its zero corrosion rating......a long established well known brand of oil has a poorer rating and does have a corrosion factor.

I previously negotiated a car club discount for the concentrate, which you add to the oil of your choice, with the original importers who are now called SYNIONIC. They now use Silverline as their distributors having been let down badly by their previous now defunct distributors. I continue to receive club discount through Silverline (at the recommendation of Synionic to Silverline)
It is added by 10% of volume to your first oil change then by 5% for further oil changes.
It pays for itself within a few hundred miles in petrol saving alone, and the bonus is reduction of metal wear.

I have no relationship with either company other than a very satisfied user. I do not make anything out of co-ordinating orders with the discount. My interest is in spreading the word on this great product to my fellow car enthusiasts.
The bigger the bulk order the more the discount.
I have previously ordered it by the 5lit cans for myself and other Scimitar club members.
If enough people in one area get together and buy a larger amount and share it out, then even bigger savings are possible. Delivery charge is obviously reduced when split between more people.

I am happy to take your orders and can arrange for delivery to the address of your choice.

There is an excelent PRESENTATION I printed out which gives good info and testimonials (Ford is one) but I can't remember where it is to be found right at this moment. I will try to remember and find out and post the link on here.

Regards Dennis

Location: Devon

Re: Engine Oil Grade

"Semi synthetic oil is only mineral oil with a very small amount (1% even) of synthetic content and could be described in the english interpretation as SEMI SYNTHETIC while offering NO benefit to the lubrication of an engine"

All modern mineral engine oils contain around 25% of additives in 75% base stock.

These additives are all synthetic so any mineral oil can be said to have a 'semi synthetic' make up.

The rest of this post is best taken with a grain of salt.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Victoria, Australia.

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Tony
"may be taken with a grain of salt"

I am disappointed with that attitude.
You should know and have heard of SINTEF. You must surely know of MIRA in England.....a very reputable and well known independent establishment. It would appear that you disregard both of their findings.
Also you appear to think that the American government had the wool puled over their eyes?

"All modern mineral engine oils contain around 25% of additives"
Really? are you sure "ALL".
The 1% was used to illustrate that even with only 1% a company could call it a semisynthetic oil. Perhaps all the oil companies in Aus are producing a good quality product. I am not so sure ALL oil in UK is that good.

I am not sure why you also advise the rest of my experience "is best taken with a grain of salt" I can only say what I have experienced after careful recording.
As stated I have no connection with any company nor do I make any profits from any help I give to others, just happy to pass on information I have found to be useful and help others when I can.

I am a retired professional electronics engineer having been used to operating and working on varied complex electronics equipment down to component level, so am not some ignorant easily fooled person.

Perhaps you would care to come up with figures from reputable sources that disproves any of the information offered.
I am sure SINTEF, MIRA and the American government would be interested.

Dennis




Location: Devon

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Just an addition to my last post.
The MIRA figures were from "Cam and Scuffing CEC L-31-T-81 test method.

Dennis

Location: Devon

Re: Engine Oil Grade

This post reminds me of the workings of the insurance industry. One sometime needs a basic product by law, and over and above that it comes down to how safe one feels 'winging it' versus using all ones money on extra product for perceptions of personal security or comfort.

Insurance companies make lots of money out of people like us.

I'm still sticking with Ruairuidh and Robert - cheap stuff, for a simple unstressed engine, and change often from what you can see and feel on the dipstick.

Putting molyslip in? Seems like would be better just to buy a better oil first!

Tony - interesting your reaction to it though. I'd always thought it seemed generally as per Dennis's post - seemingly worthy for an extra premium. Are you saying that good oils already have that sort of thing in them?

Re: Engine Oil Grade

I used Duckhams Q20/50 from the mid 1960s until it was no longer available after Castrol took them over and stopped production. I even used it in my Ford Cortina and suffered no more camshaft problems. I've tried various oils for classic and vintage cars including Halfords and within 100 miles of the oil change suffered from sticking exhaust valves, then a friend recommended Unipart 20/50 and I've had no more problems. So I'm sure Halfords classic oil is not rebranded Duckhams Q20/50.

Re: Engine Oil Grade

This whole topic was explored at some length over 2 years ago. I still stand by what I posted HERE .

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Re: Engine Oil Grade

My ORIGINAL question was what to do with an engine that has not run for some time!
In particular should I risk not cleaning the strainer and simply drain out the old oil & put in a straight 30 or some sort of oil with High Detergent qualities, run it for a bit then drain & drop the sump & then clean the strainer? That latter is my gut feeling, but looking at the old oil might affect the answer!
My daughter once had a small used Volvo (with a Renault built engine) It ran every bearing it had & a few it didn't know about, when the oil pump clogged up with the crud that an HD multigrade oil (put in by the supplying dealer) had cleared out of the engine! I saw the debris & it was horrifying! The dealer paid up, by the way!
David

Location: Stratford upon Avon

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Hi David, it is generally considered to be a dangerous practice to put a high detergent oil into an Austin 7 engine which hasn't just been fully stripped and scrupulously cleaned, paying special attention to oilways.
I wouldn't personally entertain it.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Thanks Ian
There is my answer!
The niceties of oil selection will come later!
David

Location: Stratford upon Avon

Re: Engine Oil Grade

The Austin magazine published an article about an Austin Seven Owner who ran his car during the war (2nd WW) which was using about a pint of oil for every gallon of petrol. Due to lack of funds and shortage of parts he tried and was successful in using soap flakes and water instead of oil. He ran the car for two years, but in the end he was using half a gallon of soap mix to one gallon of petrol.

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Just curious....
Assuming that you have a new rebuilt engine and you have carefully broken it in with the proper break in oil, would the Austin seven engine run well and derive any of the benefits that a TOTAL synthetic 10/30 oil would offer?

Steve

Re: Engine Oil Grade

The original question seems to have changed.

For sludged Seven engines which have stood for decades, but with cleaned sumps, the galleries with oil jets still offer some risk. This may or may not be reduced with a low detergent oil. Hopefully such oils contain all the other beneficial additives. Once really hot non detergent oil is also likely to dislodge thick material.

Colleagues work on older cars. Recently a late 1950s Vauxhall and a 1960s Rover were run on current oils; one briefly, one more extended. The latter gave some pressure problems. When removed both sumps were very deep in sludge, but probably the first time ever removed. One intake was clogged but the volume of sludge would be a litre and more cf a few cc in a Seven gallery.

The last re refining process here more or less duplicated the original refining process. Some claim the used molecules are more stable.

As for the soap tale, particularly prior to anti rust additives, condensation water was the big enemy of Seven rolling bearings. Many Sevens crept about with retarded sparks to quieten things.

Most Sevens will expire due wear or some failure little influenced by any oil filter so the weight, expense, pressure loss and delay, non original appearance and complexity of a filter is questionable. A magnet will collect the timing gear dust. A filter will not protect the jets from debris already in the gallery. Sometimes useful to intercept silicon blobs and cork from the sump gasket. If so concerned with nil wear I am surprised so little mention of thermostats.

Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: Engine Oil Grade

Stephen,

The short answer is no.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Victoria, Australia.

Re: Engine Oil Grade

So, if a synthetic 10W-30 offers no benefits to a 7 engine, what benefits does it have in a modern engine? Or a 60's engine?