That's right Roger.
Full girling and heavy axles also have much longer keys and hubs to suit.
I fully concur with Steve's thoughts on loctite and and tapers.
Don't do it unless you are certain YOU won't want to take it apart again.
There are indeed several different dia.of half shaft but I don't have the details to hand here in the wilds of North Britain.

Location: Bristol

I have been using Loctite on the tapers on short taper halfshafts for the past 30 years or so. I use Loctite 641 bearing fit or an equivalent. I only use it along with a correctly fitting key, once the hub has been lapped to the taper. I regard it as a useful aid to, not as a substitute for correct fitting. I've never had a problem getting the hubs off again, but then I do "jump" them off rather than just relying on the puller's forcing bolt to pull them off.

So, it's probably going to be my turn to avoid cyberspace flying objects now

Edit: BTW, if you have a heavy and light halfshaft in the same axle, there must be something interesting going on at the differential end as the "light" halfshaft must be rattling around in the differential's sun wheel bush.

Location: N W Kent

Each will have their own experiences, it is all down to what you are comfortable with, personally I am with Stuart under some conditions and Ian under others. If a hub and taper have old damage I use Loctite, and seem to be able to get things apart again. however a perfect set of hub and half shaft I fit sans Loctite, as there should be no need. The worst hub I have ever had to remove was one that had spun and virtually friction welded itself to the halfshaft, It took a very big sledge hammer to remove that one!

Location: NZ

A long time since I messed with a heavy axle but aren't the two diff halves the same on both types but with a larger diameter bush on the heavy axle? If so, they should fit together but someone, somewhere, might have an axle with the halves and halfshafts the other way round

Still not keen on Loctite on the tapers!

Steve

Location: North Yorkshire

Many thanks to everyone for their advice. Now to investigate further!

Stuart - please could you explain how you 'jump' the hubs off the halfshafts?


~Cheers,
roger

Location: Dorset UK

Apologies in advance if I have used an unfamiliar term for a procedure you use everyday; but just in case....

Lots of people just screw the puller on and tighten the forcing bolt, if the hub is a really good fit on the taper (with or without Loctite) there is a real risk of needing to overtighen the forcing bolt to the extent that it strips its thread or the hub thread lets go instead.

To jump the hub off put the hub puller on in the usual way, tightening the forcing bolt right up but stopping short of over tightening. Now hit the head of the forcing bolt dead square on with a big sledge hammer. Let the hammer's weight do the work by wielding the sledge hammer like a croquet mallet between your legs. I use a 14lb sledge for this. After whacking it the hub may not come clear of the taper first time but you should be able to tighten the forcing bolt a flat or so, Whack it again as before, if it doesn't come clear repeat as above. Each impact on the already pre-loaded puller forces the hub down the taper and eventually it will come free with a loud bang. The hub should literally jump off after a few cycles of this treatment.This impact method is effective with a lot less risk of stripping one or other of the puller threads.

This method has always worked for me on any tough tapers. Even for the crank in the photo below where you can see where the previous engine builder had used Araldite or such on the taper to make sure that the flywheel didn't come loose



That took few tighten, whack, tighten cycles before the flywheel jumped out of the bellhousing. But the threads in the flywheel and the puller's forcing bolt lived to fight another day

Location: N W Kent

Stuart,

Thanks for that clear explanation. I use a club hammer, but the idea of combining croquet (my only sport) with vintage car fettling (my favourite pastime) is very appealing and I shall certainly try this technique next time. It should achieve a more straight-on blow than my method.

Finally, can anyone confirm if the 'light-type' halfshafts from my March 1932 banjo axle will fit my semi-Girling Ruby D-type?

Many thanks,
Roger

Location: Dorset UK

Hello Roger, I've previously asked the question the other way round.e.g. will the insides of a D axle fit a banjo case and the answer was yes, it will but you need to check on the type of bearings fitted.
I dont suppose that you want to sell the banjo axle casings? I really only need the actual banjo but would take all three parts if necessary.

Location: Near M1 Motorway Jtn 28

I think I remember reading in the Loctite technical blurb that to remove an item you can heat to X degrees to "melt" .
Have a look at their website to check.

Location: NW Devon

Thanks Brian,

I think that one solution to my problem is to use the half shafts from my banjo, especially as the tapers are a good fit with the hubs. For the time being I shall keep all the parts 'just in case', but if I do decide to sell I shall email you.

Yes Dennis, you are right, Loctite say heat is the way to separate a joint if one of their more powerful products has been used - eg, 660 otherwise known as Quick Metal.

Roger

Location: Dorset UK

The short taper halfshafts should fit in the axle OK, but as it appears that you have one "heavy" i.e. thicker halfshaft in your diff, you may need to either bush down your "D" axle diff for the smaller halfshaft(s), or just use the diff from your banjo axle.

BTW, on the melting Loctite thing, the "normal" grades of loctite do melt with heat, but you're pretty much in the tempering range of steel when it does melt.

I have done this loads of times with stuff where previous heat treatment isn't there/isn't important, but it would be an absolute last resort on something like a hub and halfshaft combo for me.

Location: N W Kent

I'm with Stuart on this one. I use Loctite 641 on half-shaft tapers and haven't yet failed to dismantle cold subsequently. If heat were necessitated, a specified 230°C is all that is required to release the retention; not high enough to affect the state of temper of the steel.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

OK, egg on face time!

I have now split my D-type axle case with a view to fitting the half shafts from my banjo axle. This is a capital idea as the hubs I am using are also off the banjo and all have decent matching tapers.

On closer scrutiny on the brightly-lit bench it is clear that I do actually have matching correct half shafts in the D-type - but what I had taken to be one with a larger thread had, in fact, been walloped on the end (probably to remove the hub) which had slightly mushroomed the thread giving the impression to this mechanic grovelling about on the gloomy garage floor that it was of a larger diameter.

Now I have a couple of questions to help me make one good axle from the two:

1. I haven't yet removed or dismantled the torque tubes, so I don't know the state of the bearings, but I have measured about .050" pinion end float on the D-type. This seems too much, but it isn't clear to me how it should be adjusted. Advice please.

I have noted the eye-watering price of the torque tube AC bearings and hope that I can avoid having to buy a pair!

2. The AC differential bearings all have varying amounts of movement if I hold them between finger and thumb and 'rock' them while they are still on the diff. What is the correct way to establish if they are reusable?

Cheers,
Roger

Location: Dorset UK

There's no adjustment as such. There should be zero end float on the pinion. It's highly likely that the pinion nut which sandwiches the two AC bearings, the distance piece and the roller bearing together against the heel of the pinion gear has come loose. It is fortunate if the crownwheel or more usually the pinion hasn't been damaged by this movement; normally going on the overun allows the pinion to be pulled too far into mesh causing damage to the the teeth.



Once you've stripped the torque tube you will be able to clamp the (cleaned) bearings in a vice and see if there's any movement then, you will also be able to spin them and see whether the tracks and/or balls are OK.



As these are adjustable via the star wheels each side of the diff. it's really a matter of whether the balls and tracks are in good condition as to whether they're usable or not.

Overall, I take the view that axle bearings aren't cheap, but if you don't have decent bearings correctly fitted up, you may destroy an expensive CW & P and will still need to deal with the bearing issue as well as replacing the gears if they fail.

Location: N W Kent

Stuart,

Many thanks for your advice in your last post.

I have now dismantled both torque tubes and find different faults in each. All the bearings have differing amounts of wear, so I have ordered a complete new set for the D-type which should put things back to as good as new.

I plan to keep the banjo diff assy and the banjo undamaged half shaft as spares for the D-type as I believe they are the same (??).

But I see that the pinion shafts are different, the banjo having a shoulder behind the pinion that the D-type does not. However. . . will the complete banjo torque tube & pinion assembly (with its mated crown wheel) fit the D-type? It would be good to rebuild that and keep it as a spare also.

Advice, as usual, much appreciated.

Roger

Location: Dorset UK

Correction - I should have said that the D-type pinion has the shoulder . . sorry!

Roger

Location: Dorset UK

Along with the matching Crownwheel, either pinion will fit either axle but you need to use the matching radial load bearings (the one that sits against the pinion gear) and the matching spacer.

If you banjo axle is as it left the factory, it will have a ball bearing against the pinion gear. The Semi Girling D type should have a roller bearing on the 1 1/8" stepped shoulder next to the pinion gear. On both pinions there is a spacer between the paired AC thrust bearings and the radial load bearing, but as these bearings are not the same width, you need to use the matching spacer to the bearing style. The roller race radial load bearing spacer is narrower as the the roller bearing is wider than the ball race used on the earlier axles.

The outer diameter of both radial load bearings are the same, so, the ball and roller styles will interchange between the axles. If you look at your D type axle, there is a peg sticking out just below the roller bearing outer track, this was to stop the track wandering down towards the Crownwheel. When I've installed roller type CW & P assemblies in early axles, I've always drilled and tapped the banjo case and fitted a peg made from a sawn off bolt.

The diffs and short taper shafts will interchange between your two axles.

Location: N W Kent

Many thanks, Stuart. I shall let you know how I get on.

Roger

Location: Dorset UK

All proceeding well. However, a couple more questions:

1. Is it necessary to replace the felt seal behind the pinion ball bearing at the anchorage ball end? The usual suppliers don't list one.

2. How does this ball bearing get its lubrication? Is it greased via the nipple on top of the anchorage, through the 2 holes in the spherical torque tube end?

Thanks,
Roger

Location: Dorset UK

1) I believe a sealed bearing is available for the top of the torque tube from cherished suppliers.
2) Yes, it's lubricated via the spherical bearing. On my 1929 axle there was only one hole so the torque tube needed to befitted with the hole at the top.