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jet lubrication

Some time ago the topic arose and Phil advised that his 4 cyl Danish Nimbus motorcycle was so equipped. It transpires that the motor is closely related to the earlier Belgian FN. I recently chance to read in an old NZ VAR mag that, as the students of Seven minutiae will know, one of the few items Stanley Edge had access to was an FN engine with rolling bearing mains.

Is the jet arrangement one of the Austin patents? Or did they pay royalties on it?

Anyone know if FN adopted for the first 1905 fours and if any earlier examples? The 1500cc? Brescia Bugatti of Raymond Mays had the system which presumably dated from the first 1910 models.

Location: Auckland, NZ

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Re: jet lubrication

Manufacturers did not neccessarily patent unique new features which they designed and used. When Benz tried to patent mechanically operated inlet valves thay found that they could not, because Riley were already using the feature, having been the first company to use it. So it is likely that for many features of designs which may have been copied no royalties would be involved.

Location: just north of Cambridge

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Re: jet lubrication

Before retirement I used to browse the drawing office library, which had engineering books dating back to at least 1900. In these I came across a number of drawings of engines with crankshaft supported in ball and roller bearings and jet lubrication of the big ends so it wasn't an unusual system. I did wonder if that's where Herbert Austin and or S F Edge got the idea from and no I can't remember the makes. Next time I'm at the Anson Museum I'll have a look because that's where most of the books went.

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Re: jet lubrication

The Austin Seven Crankshaft lubrication - often called Splash Fed is in fact not !

I believe that Bugatti is sometimes credited with first using the jet fed system.

To quote the late great John Bowring on the Austin Seven System from our Austin Seven website -

http://www.austin7club.org/How%20To%2010.htm

"Spit and Hope lubrication in Austin 7's proved to be a stroke of genius, being the logical step between splash and fully pressure fed big end bearings. A simple eccentric vane pump running at 1/4 engine speed, producing a large volume of oil at little pressure, proved to be so successful that only the end of the production, when slipper big ends were introduced, was any change made to the delivery, and that was the angle of the two oil jets. This was changed from vertical to 45 degrees, in order that the crank web was given an extra 10 degrees in which to collect the oil for the big end. Incidently, depending on R.P.M., effective oil pressure per big end would be about 40-60 P.S.I."


Cheers, Tony.

Location: Melbourne. Victoria, Australia.

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Re: jet lubrication

I think you would call the Bugatti system "Spit with slightly more hope" here is a picture, this system was used up to early type 37

Location: Rokeby, Victoria, Australia

Re: jet lubrication

Obviously Bugatti ignored steam engine practice where a ring having a U section is bolted to the crank web with the open portion of the U towards the crank centre. An oil pipe is fitted into the bottom of the U and led to the crank pin and oil from a drip feed lubricator feeds oil into the U section where with the engine running the only out is to the crank pin.

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Re: jet lubrication

Mark,

Not sure it is better- relying on the 'eccentric groove' to encourage the oil to enter the big end bearing rather than just centrifuge out - at least the Austin Seven system directs the oil jet into the bearing feed.

Cheers, Tony.

Location: Melbourne. Victoria, Australia.

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Re: jet lubrication

Quote: Tony Press
Mark,

Not sure it is better- relying on the 'eccentric groove' to encourage the oil to enter the big end bearing rather than just centrifuge out - at least the Austin Seven system directs the oil jet into the bearing feed.

Cheers, Tony.



You are probably right Tony, but being Bugatti it's just a lot more complicated. I'm not sure if that diagram is right as I cannot figure out how they machined it in the first place.

Cheers,

Mark

Location: Rokeby, Victoria, Australia

Re: jet lubrication

That Bugatti syseml looks incredibly complex and vulnerable.
As mentioned some time ago, in his book Amherst Villiers illustrates the system in Raymond May's Bugatti Brescia, and it was as per Seven.They added capture cowls and greatly increased the safe rpm.

Location: Auckland, NZ

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Re: jet lubrication

Bob, perhaps you can post a picture of this Villiers diagram, because I've had experience of a couple of early type13 engines and they certainly weren't like Austin Seven.

Re: jet lubrication

Hi Alan

I have managed pics before but it takes me a lot of time to plod thru the unfamilair process. At the moment I am too busy sorting and dumping a lifetime collection of Jowett parts. Austin stuff is underneath....

The book about villiers is childishly titled "The Man Who Supercharged Bond" and sketch is from page 102, courtesy of the Bugatti Trust. It is so much as Seven/Phoenix no need to print.

Mays and Villiers had constant problems at 6,000 rpm but with added cowls attained 6,900.

The other Bugatti system looks like a Heath Robinson joke.

Location: Auckland, NZ

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Re: jet lubrication

As discussed in the April issue of 'The Automobile' pages 26-34 there are a number of different Brescia Bugattis including a some built by Crossley in Manchester.

Cheers, Tony.

Location: Melbourne. Victoria, Australia.

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Re: jet lubrication

It's ok Bob, I'll try to get a copy of that book.
The diagram posted a few days ago is much closer to my recollection of a Type 13 engine. I think it's far superior to Austin's in that it collects oil for the whole revolution. That said, I never had a problem with splash fed austins.

Re: jet lubrication

The picture I earlier posted was of a late model (1924) Brescia Bugatti crank, for the 10 odd years before that they looked like this:



Look familiar? Sorry for the blurry bit in the middle as picture went across the spine of the book (Bugatti Le Pur-sang des automobiles by Hugh Conway)

Cheers, Mark

Location: Rokeby, Victoria, Australia

Re: jet lubrication

I don't like the jet in the groove idea at all as the oil would be flung out of the groove ( which is Concentric not Eccentric) by centrifugal force when the jet came out of the groove.
The groove would seriously weaken the crank in a very critical area in my opinion, in what is not a very substantial crank.
Not one of Bugatti's best ideas.
When the oil has entered the pocket, in the seven arrangement, it is flung into the crank-pin by centrifugal forces and has nowhere else to go. More so in the Phoenix / Barlow cranks which are skew drilled from pocket to crank-pin with no corners.
Cheers Steve Hainsworth

Location: Wellington NZ

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Re: jet lubrication

The Bug cranks had full circle webs, that may help to explain what a 2D drawing does not.

Location: Rokeby, Victoria, Australia