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Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Sorry Alan, I can't help then.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Alan
Frank - don't know your email, but I read the article p89 in June Motorsport. It reminded me of our conversations about being in the zone. Read it

Alan


Alan
thanks, I'll try to get a copy.
Sorry for the late reply but I have been unwell following a cycling accident in London.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

If you can't. Let me know and I'll copy it for you. Hope you are better soon. I wouldn't ride a bike in London.
I've not been brilliantly well either- racing on hold for this year!

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Alan,
I tried to get a copy but nothing local and the DVLA revoked my licence after the bicycle accident so I can no longer drive anywhere. Could you copy the article for me?
Regards Frank

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

check your email

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Alan
many thanks!
it's almost a copy of my post seven years ago on the VSCC forum. Zen and the Art of Driving Faster.
I got a lot funny replies but at the next Prescott meeting I had three people come up to me to discuss it.
They were reluctant to discuss it on the Forum for fear of appearing nuts.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Interesting- I've just read that thread again and you could almost predict who would be a believer and who wouldn't.
As a technique it's known to work in archery and shooting. I believe I used to do something like in harder moves rock climbing. So why should it not apply to driving cars?

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

I started the piece because it only happened twice to me while sprinting, once and the first time at Curborough and again repeatedly at Prescott but under drugs for a migraine, and I obviously wanted it to happen again but had no idea how to induce it without the migraine.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Alan,
I'm back from Cornwall. My wife drove me everywhere and found that the DVLA had returned me my licence on my return. The interesting thing for me about the article is that the drivers talk about the occurrence as a one off. Nothing about how to repeat it. I was at a dinner with friends when I was asked about racing where I explained what had happened to me at Curborough. The host got up and disappeared for a few minutes and returned with a copy of Zen and the Art of Archery by Herrigel written in the forties. This ties in with your comments relating to shooting. At Prescott, following my comments on the VSCC blog I had two people approach me to talk about it. The first told me that the Olympic canoeists had obtained a copy of the US teams notes on Zen. The other explained how target shooters waited for the moment to fire. The sum of all these conversations and Herrigels book is that it happens to you subconsciously,
the arrow fires itself, the bullet fires itself, but how you are meant to wait for the car to fire itself is still a mystery to me.
Is it a coincidence that it started for me after I had started to do Yoga the year before?

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Of course, Frank you have seen Kurosawa portray this exact moment in The Seven Samurai? Presumably the really good samurai can induce the crucial moment...
Regards,
Stuart

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

I think it's a state of total subconscious focus on what you are doing. We've all driven home from work and realised we can't remember the last mile ( we'll I hope it's not just me), yet we did that mile perfectly ok. If you can switch off from conscious driving you also switch off another important factor, which is fear, and we all suffer from that. It's what makes you lift a fraction early, and maybe put the brakes on a little hard.
Ten or fifteen years ago, when I drove curborough short course perhaps five days a year, I could do four successive runs within a tenth of each other. When you suddenly do one that's 0.9 sec quicker than you've ever done before you have to look for a reason. Especially when you can't do it again.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Does getting your licence back mean that you can drive the Austins in competition again?

Location: South-East Surrey

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

stuart ulph
Of course, Frank you have seen Kurosawa portray this exact moment in The Seven Samurai? Presumably the really good samurai can induce the crucial moment...
Regards,
Stuart


Stuart
I am ashamed to say that I cannot remember it, though I can remember the character and the big bow, and I say ashamed because it was THE film that got me interested in cinema and also in collecting Japanese wood prints when a student.I went to see every Kurosawa film after seeing it.What a wonderful filmmaker. But you need to see them on the big screen, don't you think? Did you like his versions of MacBeth and Lear?
Regards Frank

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Here's an address for the scene - it may need a little patience to view it!

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/203402/Seven-Samurai-The-Movie-Clip-Don-t-Waste-Your-Life.html

What struck me was the portrayal of initial "concentration" on the part of the adept and the director's emphasis on the tiny but important difference between almost good and really good performance.

Incidentally, I was quite impressed by "Throne of Blood" but I was overwhelmed by "Ran"!

Regards,
Stuart

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

stuart ulph
Here's an address for the scene - it may need a little patience to view it!

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/203402/Seven-Samurai-The-Movie-Clip-Don-t-Waste-Your-Life.html

What struck me was the portrayal of initial "concentration" on the part of the adept and the director's emphasis on the tiny but important difference between almost good and really good performance.

Incidentally, I was quite impressed by "Throne of Blood" but I was overwhelmed by "Ran"!

Regards,
Stuart


Oh that scene. I thought you meant one with a bow. Yes I recall it well as I found it as memorable as the battle in the rain. I heard a story about the making of Ran where Kurosawa wanted a night scene to look like the depictions on a black and gold lacquered vase. He had made a back lit moon above a field of golden wheat, but it turned out to be not gold enough so they spent the next day spraying it gold.In the end he never used the shots.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Julian
sorry for the tardy reply but i was unsure of your question.
I decided to stop circuit racing when I reached sixty, not because I was getting any slower but mainly,if I am honest, out of fear. A few years before Len Thompson was killed at Cadwell during the race before mine and then I was involved in the Stanley Mann incident at Donnington where I narrowly missed Bib Graves' body lying on the track and clipped his rolled over Amilcar instead.He was a friend and died a year or two later.Coincidentally the VSCC moved the Spero to Snetterton on the year I approached sixty and that finally made up my mind.So, no I will not be racing again, besides which, racing in my view,involves building up a mental momentum which is neccesary to win and I have lost that totally now. Not that I won that many times.
Regards Frank

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

They are all perfectly good reasons for stopping. Tom and I were talking about the Blue Mouse Stable at the weekend and he (who has his ear to the ground more effectively than me) was telling me that you had reduced your activities as a group. I only asked because I used to enjoy seeing your team's cars, both static and moving.

Best wishes.

Location: South-East Surrey

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Frank Hernandez
Julian
sorry for the tardy reply but i was unsure of your question.
I decided to stop circuit racing when I reached sixty, not because I was getting any slower but mainly,if I am honest, out of fear. A few years before Len Thompson was killed at Cadwell during the race before mine and then I was involved in the Stanley Mann incident at Donnington where I narrowly missed Bib Graves' body lying on the track and clipped his rolled over Amilcar instead.He was a friend and died a year or two later.Coincidentally the VSCC moved the Spero to Snetterton on the year I approached sixty and that finally made up my mind.So, no I will not be racing again, besides which, racing in my view,involves building up a mental momentum which is neccesary to win and I have lost that totally now. Not that I won that many times.
Regards Frank


Winning the Voiturette seventeen times according to a program I am looking at seems many.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

No, I meant winning races, not getting a consolation prize for coming second,third or even third. Austins were there to make up the numbers and when the numbers got too big, remember the years where they had to hold heats to get in, the committee decided to ban the Firestones because they were radials, sin of sins, and the chance for a race for Austin Sevens with a bit of kudos was passed by as many Austins went to race elsewhere.
Winning is winning, crossing the line first. Ask the great Peter Hornby,talking of Zen and tunnel vision, if he was happy with a Voiturette win. He dominated Austin Sevens in the nineties and it was almost heartstopping to watch him racing for the Spero. A win is a win.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Yes, I was one of those who stopped racing with the vscc when they banned radial tyres. I took to the hills and the Bert Hadley Championship. As a tyre engineer I never understood the reason, as you could buy radial construction tyres in 1911. I started using Dunlop R5s a year or two later, but by then the damage was done.

I've heard it said there are two positions in motor racing. First, and nowhere. I think all truly competitive racers would agree with that.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Alan
Yes, I was one of those who stopped racing with the vscc when they banned radial tyres. I took to the hills and the Bert Hadley Championship. As a tyre engineer I never understood the reason, as you could buy radial construction tyres in 1911. I started using Dunlop R5s a year or two later, but by then the damage was done.

I've heard it said there are two positions in motor racing. First, and nowhere. I think all truly competitive racers would agree with that.


Alan

It was one of the most stupid decisions made. In looks there is very little between an R5 and a Firestone. So what was they real reason? They also banned the old L section 15s, which I used, but that made me run on new R5s which was a revelation for me as they made me lap 3-4 seconds faster. As I said, to me it seemed as if Austins were there to make up the numbers and be tolerated as long as we didn't go too fast and embarrass the Bugattis and Bentleys. When they tried to ban 15"wheels I spent more time writing to the club than I did tuning the cars. By the way, when this was going on I heard from a committee member that we had been accused of running with titanium con rods, what does that tell you?

Regards Frank

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

There is a very real difference between R5s and Firestones. Like about £600 a set. I found new R5s better but by the time they were a season old, the benefit had faded some.
I think the vscc were trying to force us to use 3.50x19s but there was nothing suitable at the time. Main problems were there were only motorcycle tyres and those had nothing like enough speed capability. I wrote and told them that. At the time I knew a bit about tyres, and thought I'd put a well reasoned technical case, but to no avail, the committee didn't want to listen.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Alan
There is a very real difference between R5s and Firestones. Like about £600 a set. I found new R5s better but by the time they were a season old, the benefit had faded some.
I think the vscc were trying to force us to use 3.50x19s but there was nothing suitable at the time. Main problems were there were only motorcycle tyres and those had nothing like enough speed capability. I wrote and told them that. At the time I knew a bit about tyres, and thought I'd put a well reasoned technical case, but to no avail, the committee didn't want to listen.


I agree, they wanted us to use 18s or 19s and there were a few accidents because of this. My belief is that at the end of a spin you can get a big side load when the car is about to stop and the rims are very narrow so that the tyre rolls under and it grips fiercely. I tried them and rolled at Oulton just like this. I ended up racing for 15 years in the Vintage All comers races on 400mm rims, which they allowed as they were apparently available in 1930s, using Michelin cross plies which looked just like radials! The last batch was made in 1964, so I was racing on tyres that were 30 years old for about 15 years. You can imagine how much grip they had but it was great practice for controlling slides! My greatest joy came when I beat that tosser Stanley Mann on them. By the way, a bit of softener kept mine fresh for three years. Did you think that they knew the cost would put so many people off?

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

It wouldn't take much of a brain to work that out. The cost of a set of R5s and new wheels was probably half the value of a lot of racing sevens at the time. I was lucky I got a massive discount from Dunlop because of my work.
Actually it did me a favour. After a while I realised hillclimbing suited me better than circuit racing.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Alan
It wouldn't take much of a brain to work that out. The cost of a set of R5s and new wheels was probably half the value of a lot of racing sevens at the time. I was lucky I got a massive discount from Dunlop because of my work.
Actually it did me a favour. After a while I realised hillclimbing suited me better than circuit racing.


So why do you think they wanted to put Austin owners off? They never asked the ERA owners to race on 17"R5s, I believe they carried on racing on L section 16s.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

I don't know, but i always thought the committee were getting grief from owners of expensive but pedestrian Bentleys, Bugattis, Nashes and the like, who didn't like getting beaten by Austins. It was disguised as a drive for originality, but it wasn't. Owners of more exotic cars continued to use anachronistic wheel and tyre sizes. Austins weren't fast because of the tyres, they needed the tyres because they were fast. If owners of said exotica had put in the time and effort we did, and you more than any, we wouldn't have had a look in.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Alan
I don't know, but i always thought the committee were getting grief from owners of expensive but pedestrian Bentleys, Bugattis, Nashes and the like, who didn't like getting beaten by Austins. It was disguised as a drive for originality, but it wasn't. Owners of more exotic cars continued to use anachronistic wheel and tyre sizes. Austins weren't fast because of the tyres, they needed the tyres because they were fast. If owners of said exotica had put in the time and effort we did, and you more than any, we wouldn't have had a look in.


Alan
I think you have put it rather well, But does it mean that you are you implying a class struggle? are we the Oiks or simply Class 1 & 11?
The problems for Gary and me began when Gary took the Class Record at Prescott in 81. The club issued Rules for Austin sevens months later and following that it got worse and worse. It was brought home to me after a race at Silverstone where I had overtaken a Bugatti. As I returned to the paddock a spectator lining the return road shouted
"Beating a Bugatti, you ***ed it now with the Committee". I recently went to a talk by Graham Obree , the One Hour record man. He said that the reason for his success was due to adversity. Every time that he developed a new riding position it was banned so he came up with another one.
Does anyone do the Vintage Allcomers in an Austin anymore?

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Interesting historical observations. Sadly nothing has changed and I decided to cease VSCC racing after Silverstone this year.
Allan, if you have a moment could you email me as I am interested in hillclimbing next year and would Value your advice. Are you by any chance at Prescot this weekend?
David .

Location: N. Oxfordshire

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Historical??!!! I lived through it, that's worrying.
Frank, I struggle to answer your question. However, I do think through the 90s and early 2000s there was a definite tightening of eligibility regs and that it was aimed at Austin Sevens. I don't think they would have succeeded with any other car, but because of the demographic of A7 owners they got away with it. I never had a problem, socially within the club, it was just every time I turned up at an event, I felt rather than make it easy they were trying to find ways of stopping me. In the end I voted with my feet. I didn't get that anywhere else. Strange thing is it seemed to be race and speed events only. I competed in rallies and trials and found it completely different.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Alan
It wouldn't take much of a brain to work that out. The cost of a set of R5s and new wheels was probably half the value of a lot of racing sevens at the time. I was lucky I got a massive discount from Dunlop because of my work.
Actually it did me a favour. After a while I realised hillclimbing suited me better than circuit racing.


Why do you think that hillclimbing suited you better?

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Alan
I don't know, but i always thought the committee were getting grief from owners of expensive but pedestrian Bentleys, Bugattis, Nashes and the like, who didn't like getting beaten by Austins. It was disguised as a drive for originality, but it wasn't. Owners of more exotic cars continued to use anachronistic wheel and tyre sizes. Austins weren't fast because of the tyres, they needed the tyres because they were fast. If owners of said exotica had put in the time and effort we did, and you more than any, we wouldn't have had a look in.

Agree with that.
If it wasn't for the Austin Seven the VSCC wouldn't be the club it is,especially encouraging younger drivers to old cars and competition.
It was said to me once "You can do anything you like till you start winning"

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

I found I liked the precision of it. You have to get it right- one mistake blows the whole run. You don't get that in circuit racing.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Austin in the Shed
Alan
I don't know, but i always thought the committee were getting grief from owners of expensive but pedestrian Bentleys, Bugattis, Nashes and the like, who didn't like getting beaten by Austins. It was disguised as a drive for originality, but it wasn't. Owners of more exotic cars continued to use anachronistic wheel and tyre sizes. Austins weren't fast because of the tyres, they needed the tyres because they were fast. If owners of said exotica had put in the time and effort we did, and you more than any, we wouldn't have had a look in.

Agree with that.
If it wasn't for the Austin Seven the VSCC wouldn't be the club it is,especially encouraging younger drivers to old cars and competition.
It was said to me once "You can do anything you like till you start winning"


How very true. You should read the cutting comments in the quarterly hillclimb report when Gary Bishop took the class record at Prescott in 1981.Terence Brettell was good enough to come to his defence in the following quarterly issue but that event set the scene for us for another twenty years.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Alan
I found I liked the precision of it. You have to get it right- one mistake blows the whole run. You don't get that in circuit racing.


Yes, I think that that is one of the reasons why I liked it. On the circuits you seem aware that you have a second chance or even a third. It leads to you analysing the details of your preparation more. I have far more detail concerning Prescott and Curborough than I have about Cadwell and Donnington in my black folder and many more gearbox mods for hillclimbing and sprinting.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Frank Hernandez


How very true. You should read the cutting comments in the quarterly hillclimb report when Gary Bishop took the class record at Prescott in 1981.Terence Brettell was good enough to come to his defence in the following quarterly issue but that event set the scene for us for another twenty years.



well what did you expect? A young interloper bringing a meticulously prepared car and beating a member of the "establishment" driving a car that was doubtless dragged from a shed and given a dusting prior to the event. Jolly unsporting!!

I think thats typical of the attitudes of the times. I remember in the same era being scrutineered behind a well known Shelsley Special. It was not in the best of condition. It was nodded through, while I was given the most thorough scrutineering Ive ever had. My car maybe didnt have paint some places it should have had, but it was well screwed together. It was only when I remarked on my membership of a professional engineering institutuon and my willigness to protest his decision that I was given a pass ticket.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Is all this business re VSCC circuit racing and the anti-Austin Seven people now history or is it ongoing? Just curious as I haven't been a member of the club for many decades. When I was a member some people were very helpful to me as a young inexperienced competitor.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Frank Hernandez
Alan
I found I liked the precision of it. You have to get it right- one mistake blows the whole run. You don't get that in circuit racing.


Yes, I think that that is one of the reasons why I liked it. On the circuits you seem aware that you have a second chance or even a third. It leads to you analysing the details of your preparation more. I have far more detail concerning Prescott and Curborough than I have about Cadwell and Donnington in my black folder and many more gearbox mods for hillclimbing and sprinting.

Is there any truth in the story that you had a different gearbox for every hill and circuit Frank ?

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

Austin in the Shed
Frank Hernandez
Alan
I found I liked the precision of it. You have to get it right- one mistake blows the whole run. You don't get that in circuit racing.


Yes, I think that that is one of the reasons why I liked it. On the circuits you seem aware that you have a second chance or even a third. It leads to you analysing the details of your preparation more. I have far more detail concerning Prescott and Curborough than I have about Cadwell and Donnington in my black folder and many more gearbox mods for hillclimbing and sprinting.

Is there any truth in the story that you had a different gearbox for every hill and circuit Frank ?


Partly true but you have to bear in mind that we were racing for over thirty years and started with possibly 33bhp and ended with 44bhp. So, we used over time three gearboxes for Cadwell, two for Mallory, four for Prescott and three for Curborough. That selection gave us enough variety for the other tracks and sprints. When you are short of power you need to maximise the use of what you have.

Re: Message for Frank Hernandez

There was a magazine article some years ago about Frank et al and it had a brilliant picture of the "gearbox wall" in his workshop.

Charles