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Special building -trouble ahead?

I've just been reading the latest FBHVC newsletter; available here: http://fbhvc.co.uk/members-pages/newsletter-archive/

Where it appears that the FBHVC have taken against the the use of the 8 point rule for historic vehicles -I've copied the relevant text below

The Federation had stated in our response to the
consultation that the ‘8 point rule’ (intended originally to
decide if enough of a radically altered vehicle remained
to retain authenticity), was unsuitable particularly for
complete vehicles which had not been disassembled recently
or indeed at all. It was unclear whether DfT were still
proposing to make use of the 8 point rule or whether the
definition of a suitable criterion for inclusion as a VHI was
one of their outstanding problems. DfT did advise that the
definition has been the subject of some discussion between
DVSA, within whose bailiwick this falls, and DVLA.


Currently, this DVLA rule applies to all vehicles, so if the A7 special you're building at the moment has a Bowdenex or Cambridge front end, and/or a Riley 9 or such motor, it would still keep it's right to the original registration, and everyone but the most diehard purist would accept that it would still qualify as a historic car.

It looks to me that the FBHVC, by rejecting the existing rules as regards modifications that apply to historic cars, create the risk that any significant modification from factory specification means that the resulting vehicle won't be regarded as historic.

For the information of those unfamiliar with the 8 point rule, the "scoreboard" from the DVLA website is pasted in below; In order not to be considered "radically modified" -i.e. BIVA test required- a car must achieve a minimum of 8 points.



*Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5
*Suspension (front and back) - original 2
*Axles (both) - original 2
*Transmission - original 2
*Steering assembly - original 2
*Engine - original 1

Location: N W Kent

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Re: Special building -trouble ahead?

It would be interesting to know how many A7s, specials or otherwise have passed scrutiny and been issued with new age appropriate reg or had their original reg reinstated under the latest fairly vague DVLA regulations.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

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Re: Special building -trouble ahead?

Can't say as I understand all of this information/ no information, perhaps somebody can answer this .
I have a v5 which states Saloon (36 Ruby) long gone 20 years plus, it is the correct v5 for my chassis.
I have a period replacement body (Paxton ) from circa 1975.
Keeping the axles as per factory settings
If I were to build this car up would the DVLA change my v5 to suit.

Location: Oakley , hants

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Re: Special building -trouble ahead?

I think the reason FBHVC rejected the DVLA's 8-point rule was that DVLA were using the criteria that the items must come from the same car, not that they were just to period specification - how many specials are going to be built around a complete collection of major components from one car?

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Re: Special building -trouble ahead?

Quote: Derek Sheldon
Can't say as I understand all of this information/ no information, perhaps somebody can answer this .
I have a v5 which states Saloon (36 Ruby) long gone 20 years plus, it is the correct v5 for my chassis.
I have a period replacement body (Paxton ) from circa 1975.
Keeping the axles as per factory settings
If I were to build this car up would the DVLA change my v5 to suit.


As I understand it, this change Will count as a "Kit Converted Vehicle" to the DVLA when you want to change the V5C from saloon to sports or whatever. As part of this they will provide you with a build sheet where you specify what bits you've used. You will need to provide them with pictures of the rolling chassis with the number plate showing, and then pictures of the completed car with the Paxton body, also with the registration plate showing. Biggest problem with this seems to be that a lot of the DVLA people don't understand their own rules on this, and will often say that the car needs a BIVA inspection by VOSA, rather than the free inspection (which is about checking chassis and engine No's) from from SGS -DVLA's contractor. This is what should occur when an already registered vehicle has just been rebodied.


Some text about this here: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/kitconverted-vehicles

Location: N W Kent

Re: Special building -trouble ahead?

I have a completed ex saloon now 2 seater special. In order to get it's old reg back under the new rules I would have to remove the body so that I can take a photo of a bare chassis with number plate attached. Daft!

Location: Sheffield

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Re: Special building -trouble ahead?

Quote: Dave Wortley
I have a completed ex saloon now 2 seater special. In order to get it's old reg back under the new rules I would have to remove the body so that I can take a photo of a bare chassis with number plate attached. Daft!


Hi Dave,
That is a real bind. These rules have been in place for some time -since 1996 I've been told. But DVLA could hardly be accused of being pro-active in disseminating any of this information.

From the DVLA perspective, this all about the car's appearance matching what the V5C says. A vintage style 2 seater open 7 special doesn't look completely different to a box saloon. But, this car has an unmodified Reliant Scimitar chassis underneath, and illustrates the reason for the DVLA's position:

Location: N W Kent

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Re: Special building -trouble ahead?

I think we're all getting this a bit confused, and causing unnecessary worry.
The DVLA had a Consultation recently on extending the MOT exemption, and how to determine which cars should be given historic status and eligibility for given exemption. The DVLA's plan was to use the 8 point system to do so (I can't recall ever seeing that that all parts had to come from the exact vehicle when I filled in the Survey a misnomer I think). The ramifications being that ALL cars eligible for historic status would have to prove that they were within the 8 point system. This anyone can see creates a massive amount of work that the DVLA does not have the resources to carry out in an effective manner. Using outside sources just leaves the system open to corruption. It also does not work for cars that have long been converted outside the 8 point system. This is why the FBHVC are rejecting the 8 point system for the specific use of ALL existing historic vehicles proving their eligibility, not for the use of registering specials rebuilt recently. For example there are many specials built with all sorts of parts even pre war and the 8 point system is not suitable to govern them as they have been that way long before the new rules came out as such the rejection of this use of the 8 point system is to protect the cars already modified which would have to apply for their historic status again. I don't think there is any proposed change for newly converted vehicles. As far as the current situation goes I think the other thread DVLA new rules seems to have the most relevant information on getting specials registered, which as far as I have understood is if the body is of a type available on the chassis or of a type associated with the marque then it should be OK the get it registered. In this instance Dereks Paxton 'Should' be absolutely fine, as should a vehicle as per Stuarts first post with independent front end and riley 9 engine so long as the body meets the very loose requirement of 'is a type associated with the marque'. A requirement which is much more difficult to understand but for the Austin 7 I think you could make a good argument for most things with period photographs and adverts, it just depends how strict they want to be or how they want to interpret the rules. Hopefully we will have some news of how recent applications have been recieved.
I may of course be 100% wrong as are the pitfalls of trying to understand aforementioned organisations and weed the facts out of their statements. But it seemed that we were taking the information on the 8 point rule out of context. If you read it again with this in mind hopefully it makes sense.

The Federation had stated in our response to the
consultation
that the ‘8 point rule’ (intended originally to
decide if enough of a radically altered vehicle remained
to retain authenticity), was unsuitable particularly for
complete vehicles which had not been disassembled recently
or indeed at all.

Hope that makes some sense, and all the best with your projects.

Location: New Forest

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Re: Special building -trouble ahead?

Quote: Timothy Payne
I think we're all getting this a bit confused, and causing unnecessary worry.


It is a potentially confusing subject due to it's inherent complexity, but to try and make sense of the current situation, it's necessary to separate already registered cars (even ones which exist in the form of a rolling chassis) and a car built from a pile of bits.


Quote: Timothy Payne
I don't think there is any proposed change for newly converted vehicles.


Already registered- The DVLA "kit conversion" rules would allow an owner to fit any body style he or she desires. As long as the donor chassis and running gear score 8 points or more (and changes to engine No's, capacity etc. have already been recorded in the V5C), thats OK. The only proviso is that you need to go through the DVLA's process -there a number of cases where people who've tried to do it after replacing the bodyshell have had their logbook cancelled.

Quote: Timothy Payne
As far as the current situation goes I think the other thread DVLA new rules seems to have the most relevant information on getting specials registered, which as far as I have understood is if the body is of a type available on the chassis or of a type associated with the marque then it should be OK the get it registered. In this instance Dereks Paxton 'Should' be absolutely fine, as should a vehicle as per Stuarts first post with independent front end and riley 9 engine so long as the body meets the very loose requirement of 'is a type associated with the marque'.


Not registered- My understanding of the DVLA requirements for registering a car which was previously a pile of disparate bits is the so-called "re-constructed classic" route where there have been problems with the DVLA requiring the the body as well as the mechanics of the car to be manufactured in period. Now that common sense has broken out on this, a Paxton body or similar should be acceptable. But "alien" mechanics like a Riley motor or Cambridge front end would be real problem for a re-constructed classic A7 unless the applicant could get support from his/her club and point to a period photo or magazine article of the famous "Joe Scroggs Special" or such with the same specification, and say that he's creating a tribute to this sadly lost masterpiece.

Apologies in advance if I'm creating more confusion here- this is just my understanding...

Location: N W Kent

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Re: Special building -trouble ahead?

Hello Stuart,

I apologise if I have added to the confusion. I've spent so more time arguing this one with myself and have I hope worked out where I have been unclear in stating why I think that the Riley engine and independent front end is OK.

I agree with most everything you say. I believe, though the process is different, the rules are the same for already registered vehicles and newly reconstructed cars. The repeal of the stringent and obviously barmy 25 year old parts and body of original type on cars with separate chassis (the main point of which is that under the 8 point system the Body or frame is a compulsory part no matter what the total is without it and that the DVLA reinterpreted their rules to say that the body was compulsory regardless of separate chassis), means that both cases should now be OK with a change of body on a car with separate chassis in keeping with the DVLAs 'type originally fitted to the marque or of a type associated with the marque'. With this the cancelled logbooks or refusal to register vehicles experienced before, should not now happen. It seems we're both in agreement with this?

Where I think we have got crossed up is how many points the theoretical Riley 9 engined, independent front end special would score. Before the DVLA went mad the Body on a car with separate chassis was not considered in the points system so body could be changed, and as long as it had an original chassis it scored the 5 points. I take the U Turn on the original body being a compulsory as meaning that they accept that it is the chassis that counts for your 5 points and changing the body doesn't cause you to lose them. So following that logic our theoretical special should get 5 points for the chassis lose your points for suspension, axles and engine, but score 2 each for steering (not sure now if all independent systems use enough of the original steering setup to qualify so this could possibly be a problem), and transmission, giving a total of 9. Of course if they are taking away your 5 points for changing the body, despite you having the original chassis, you've got 4 points and no leg to stand on.

As I said in my previous post I may of course be 100% wrong as are the pitfalls of trying to understand aforementioned organisations and weed the facts out of their statements.

All the best and happy fettling

Location: New Forest

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