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Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Hey Tony

I have used four sets of Quarry pistons in both tuned and normal engines.
One of these engines has done a lot of mileage, I must say I really rate them and would always use them if available.

Nick Turley

Location: The Centre of the Universe

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Tony - I don't know the actual origin of the Quarry pistons, but in another motoring world I inhabit, I sourced some truly excellent forged pistons from Venolia in California

http://www.venolia.com/

Don't be put off by the images on their web site (they specialise on pistons for Drag racers..) but I was able to source pistons for my 1932 j2 MG. I had to source the rings separately from Wiseco (I think)

Very nice stuff..

hth?

Hugh

Location: Cambridge

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

The truth of the matter is that Tony's pistons are very, very good. They are well made (I've had some other pistons fail and I'm not alone) and they are based in the factory slipper piston. The same pistons are available elsewhere from other specialists but they all come from the same bloke funding them.
If we want Tony to shell out funds to get more made then he's going to need two things in my book.

Firstly a fair return on his investment. Decent pistons of this quality at £50 a pop are a bargain (and that's £20 more than current prices). As has been said elsewhere they cause no issues in non sporting engines and frankly I'd use them by preference.

The second thing is an understanding of demand. If the difference between helping to underwrite a batch is demand I'd happily order a set for the shelf. Anyone else?

Charles

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Yes

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

I have used these pistons in some of my customers engines with great success. I agree with Alan that for a good sports engine they really are the only choice.
Like Charles I would also order a set for the shelf plus the other set that I need for my next engine.

Location: Deepest darkest Kent

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Tony, please keep them in production, they are excellent quality and a it will be sad day if no longer available, many of us would consider them standard fitment when building a sports or racing engine.

Location: NZ

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Worth pointing out that as Alan says, Honda are largely unavailable (and need mods to fit) , Renault are scare (and a pain to fit, even with R4 rods) and that in my opinion you can't make a decent sports piston by simply machining the bottom ring off a standard piston. Any option that I've missed?

Charles

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

just in terms of thinking of widening the take for such things, but knowing nothing... it seems from the thread that they have advantages for general use in engines which are perhaps more prone to running stresses?

As the cost of renovating an engine - if you can't or don't do it yourself - is astronomic, it surely puts the onus on the items needing to be bulletproof from the start. Hence the inadvisability to use a rare sports crankcase assembled with original components and so on.

The question might be - are there any practical DISadvantages, other than sheer originality - on sports pistons being used in general cars? And what is the actual difference in cost?

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Thank you all so far for your input.

Many have enjoyed the quality of these Pistons in the past. And I took them on with the view to keeping the supply up if I can.

This one is a big decision for me, although I've supplied parts for 25 years, I only run as a smaller supplier, and don't want or need to get any bigger. Putting a new batch of Pistons on the shelf would be at a cost to other items I am greatly reducing anyway.

One of the reasons for your input, is cost.

As jonE asks what the difference in price.

The supplier of standard pattern austin Pistons, charges £168.00 inc VAT. for standard cars these are very good quality. And the price im sure will be kept down through quantity of sales.

These are a copy of the original Pistons and are an expansion Piston. So for faster "hotter" cars. They heat the engine faster and hotter. And need higher tolerances between piston and bores. So will loose more compression percentages the faster they go.


at the moment I've kept the quarry Pistons at £180 as this is what Steve was selling them at. The prices haven't changed since he restocked 5 years ago.

The Pistons are a copy of the austin 7 racing pistons, and like modern car Pistons are limited or '0' expansion. The piston is a smaller skirt "slippered" and runs on 3 thinner rings.

The result is they seal better not only for standard cars, but for higher speeds, there is less friction caused, so the engine creates less heat. The price has been kept low because the rings are metric motorcycle. Imperial size rings were 4 times the price.

As it's been 5 years since the last order, I'm sure the manufacture costs will have gone up.

So one of my questions should be, WHAT WOULD AN EXCEPTED PRICE BE. Before they are to expensive.

I think the batch size is 500 Pistons, 125 sets.
I currently sell around 12 sets a year.
And need to sell 69 sets at full price to recoop my investment.

So as much input on people can give on price is important.

Next important question is, if these Pistons are not available. What would people look to fit in the future.

I know a lot of people prefur even to look rather than join in, but sometimes your input is important for the future of some parts.

Thanks for your help Tony.

Location: Huncote on the pig

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Thanks Tony, I have a set of these same pistons ready on the shelf for the next engine I put together. Like others I think that they are fab and I am always grateful for your help in finding (and stocking) special bits and pieces so they are instantly available when we need them..

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

I've two engines running Quarry piston. Both used for both competition and road. They're excellent and I'd certainly use them again. Like Alan I've also had two sets of piston fail with pretty catastrophic results (NOT Seven Workshop piston that are also excellent) and so saving a few pounds is not an issue for me. Quality is!!
Equally, I often look to buy items that might have limited availability in the future to keep for when I might need them so I would probably buy a set or two 'for stock'

What would I pay? Within reason, whatever they cost.

Steve

Location: A long way from home!

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

I'm not likely to be rebuilding many engines in the immediate future, but these would be my go to for as long as they remain available. A price rise (within reason) wouldn't put me off. Having them available at a higher price being far preferable to them not being available at all.

Location: New Forest

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Tony, The next set of pistons I buy will be your slipper ones. As Timothy Payne says a price rise would be expected after 5 years or so at the same price. ( After all the state pension is guaranteed to increase by a certain minimum every year!) I haven't immediate plans to build another engine after just having expensive water leaking problems in my pretend ulster but who knows with 80 year old cylinder blocks. Hope you can get a decent deal with your supplier.
Cheers,
Dave

Location: Sheffield

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

I'm about to start building a more "sporty" engine for the special and would be extremely interested in a set of these Pistons! To be honest I'd be happy paying a decent amount more than the £180 they have been to date... You pay for quality and it's worth it!

Location: Horsham

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Tony asks the question in capitals "WHAT WOULD AN EXPECTED PRICE BE"

My starter for ten is that £250 is a very reasonable price in my book. I'd probably pay a bit more but I suspect that demand might start to dip down a lot at that point.

Please indicate agreement or disagreement to help Tony


Charles

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

I am up for that.

Location: The Centre of the Universe

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

When you think how much a Phoenix crank is these days, have good pistons been under-priced for a while?
Tony, or any other supplier, has to have a reasonable return on their outlay especially when that return is likely to be over a number of years.
As suggested £250 whilst not cheap, really is not expensive compared to other items.

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

I would be happy at £250 a set.
Regards,
Stuart

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

I would pay £250 for a set of Tony's pistons without a seconds hesitation. That's in the same ballpark as a pair of top quality reduced width AC main bearings these days.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

These are a joy to fit, £250 is a fantastic price.

I have used these and 7 Workshop pistons in a good number of engines without issue - we are very well served to say the least.

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Would be more than happy at £250 a set.

Steve

Location: A long way from home!

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

For my race car I'd pay whatever they cost, but I'd be very happy with £250 and would use on the road car engines I do as well.

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Could not the leading A7 dealers get together to spread the cost, and divide up the stock between them - there must be at least four or five with the wherewithal to fund it? Better that than no supplier at all.

Or failing that, what about all the spare cash sitting idle in the A7CA coffers to provide a financial back-up, surely a legitimate use? Cannot be beyond the wit of those in control to work out an arrangement with Tony.

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Tony's thread has prompted me to post here, as I have been stocking these pistons ever since the supply of genuine Honda ones dried up. I have been talking to the supplier about getting these manufactured again for some time. I have now nearly worked out how many of each size I want to order, but it's a bit of a juggling act between a larger quantity, lower unit cost and more money tied up, or a smaller quantity, higher unit cost and less money. I have also had to wait until the piggy-bank has recovered again after restocking on batches of some high-value items. Nearly there I hope! I have spoken to Tony about this, as he obviously wasn't aware of my plans for these pistons.

Currently I have the following sizes available:
56.00, 56.50, 57.25, 57.50 and 57.75mm
and I hope to add 56.75, 57.00 and 58.00mm ones - I will keep you posted as to progress.

David

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Agree, £250 would still be good value in my eyes.

Location: New Forest

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Gadger
Could not the leading A7 dealers get together to spread the cost, and divide up the stock between them - there must be at least four or five with the wherewithal to fund it? Better that than no supplier at all.

Or failing that, what about all the spare cash sitting idle in the A7CA coffers to provide a financial back-up, surely a legitimate use? Cannot be beyond the wit of those in control to work out an arrangement with Tony.


Thank you all so far, just to bring this one a little more up to date.

David cockrane rang me I think two days ago/Friday. On this subject. To tell me his plans of making Pistons!

In this conversation he suggested he sells around 15 sets a year, and same as me didn't want to take several years to recoop his outlay.
So I am a little bemused why he wants to make his own batch?

If I don't find it worth wile to restock the quarry Pistons. I Will not be looking to restock from elsewhere.
I will be keeping a number of sets for personal use. And will let the rest slowly run out of stock.

The brand and its established quality record will be lost.

If this happens, don't be slow on the remainder sets after I remove my own.

The new seven workshop contacted me shortly after I bought these Pistons from Steve, about adding them to there range. I didn't turn the offer down, but didn't want to supply without being able to offer a full range. After paying £10,000 for the Pistons I didn't have enough finance to add another £12,500 straight away.

I have contacted the new seven workshop recently to see if he wants to stock these Pistons if I re order. The answer is NO. I take it he is either short of funds at this time, or like David has his own plans for the future.

I was informed by Steve when I bought these Pistons, another trader had not paid his last bill at that time. So I have not pursued them to see if they want more freebys.

Gadger, the answer to why the trade doesn't get together is obvious above.

As for the money held by the A7CA. Its a mystery to many why they hold so much. Personally I don't think the committee have gotten used to the fact that the money is NOT there's. It's the clubs money. If it was one persons money, a decision could quickly be made. But when it's a hole committee! It takes a lot of people to agree what to do. Just like government. And like brexit, if the committee / government can't decide what to do. Then they should open this decision up to there members to decide. Or as brexit did, the great unwashed public.

I have the rest of next week to get ready for the 750 rally, after that I will find out what needs to be done to stock another batch of Pistons.

Tony.

Location: Huncote on the pig

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

So we have an annual market of 25 sets roughly speaking. Some sold at £180 and some at a higher price. Both come from the same patterns (which someone must own and control the use of).

As an end user it would appear odd for two suppliers to have to dig deep to fund similar products that on a strictly commercial basis are marginal at best anyway. Even odder that they'd then have only half the addressable market.
It's a commercial decision for the suppliers but as an end user I value the continuity of supply and the price/quality equation. I fear that both may be compromised with two independent manufacturers.

Charles

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Charles P
(which someone must own and control the use of).

Charles


Hi Charles, answer to the question above, ( I bought the pattern and tooling from Steve). Nobody else has the rights to use it.

However as you know, these Pistons are made to Austins originals. With some changes to work with modern use. So although people shouldn't take one and directly copy it, and our choice of rings gap pings and spacing rings, and length of gudgeon pin.

There is nothing to stop anyone from doing so, as long as they pay for there own pattern and tooling.

This is more of an ethical choice, rather than taking time to design a new product.

Same as when we solved why shackle repaire pins were breaking, and others copied us.
Same as we took the poorly centred rear engine seals, made them to an accurate centred billet. And others copied us.
Same as my cast iron brake drums that have proved themselves over the years. I have another trader who suggest he is looking at making his own. I'm sure these will come from China though. Not the UK.

Amongst others.

Sorry I digress, this thread is for the future of Pistons.

Tony.

Location: Huncote on the pig

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Tony betts
David cockrane rang me I think two days ago/Friday. On this subject. To tell me his plans of making Pistons!

In this conversation he suggested he sells around 15 sets a year, and same as me didn't want to take several years to recoop his outlay.
So I am a little bemused why he wants to make his own batch?

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have been stocking these pistons for some years, supplied by Quarry Engineering. I was running out of some sizes, and I understood (from Tony's posting last November) that he was moving away from selling new spares. So it seemed reasonable that I should try to continue stocking these as I assumed that no-one else would be, and it would be a pity if they disappeared from the market. I was rather surprised and alarmed when I read this post - the last thing that I want to do is to tread on anyone's toes, but I genuinely believed that Tony wouldn't be interested in restocking them. Hence my phone call to him to try to explain my situation without discussing it via the forum, which I am now reluctantly doing.

As a matter of interest, suppliers can end up making the same part at the same time without realising that another supplier is working on the same thing. This happened to me about four years ago with kingpin reamers. I had spent quite some time sorting out a drawing, tracking down suppliers, trying to gauge demand, getting quotes, etc, and was just about to place an order when Tony suddenly posted that he was making them. So a quick phone call to him and decided that it wasn't a good idea for us both to be doing them, and as he had (just) beaten me to it, he would go ahead and I wouldn't. Seemed reasonable to me, although there was a certain amount of wasted time & effort on my part.

David

Re: SPORTS piston help needed

Hi David,

As I sed, I was a bit bemused to your intentions in the phone call. I though you were intending to make your own sports Pistons.

As in, designing a new product, building its reputation etc.

Being slow, the penny has now dropped.

your intension was to copy the quarry Pistons exactly, to sell them as slipper Pistons and fill in the gaps. Doing so because I wanted to sell out my new stock.

Yes I want out of new part, and as you know I advertised it. if anyone wanted to buy me out.

When I put the new spares up for sale, the quarry piston patterns were included in the sale. If I wasn't making them, then the next owner could.

Only the owner of the patterns, be it me or the next owner. Will have the rights to sell the Pistons produced from them as quarry engineering slipper Pistons.

Although I can't stop anyone from copying them by design. Please note copycat Pistons should not be sold on, by useing quarry engineerings reputation.

They will be a fake at best.

Perhaps instead of copying the Pistons, the phone call should have been about what I would be charging to use the patterns to make more Pistons.

Think of the Pistons in the same way you would your new steering arms.

Anyone can copy Austins originals.
But you have taken the time to re design them, market them. And build there reputation.
How would you feel if someone took your new design and directly copy it.

As for the reamers, I know you made a double ended reamer. The people who bought the reamer from the thread on the forum, did not want the double ended reamer. They wanted a copy of Austins original. With three cutting faces.

I you want to talk further off the forum about what it will cost to use the quarry piston patterns you are welcome to do so.

Tony.



Location: Huncote on the pig