Hi everyone, I am currently planning to put a 1933 Austin 7 Saloon on the road and need to use it on a regular basis. Any suggestions on a more modern reliable engine (I'm up for anything). Also is it possible (no I have'nt lost it) to fit small disc brakes.
Someone recently suggested a Reliant engine anyone tried this.
Please note this is NOT a customising job and all original parts will be retained with the car.
Any suggestions are much appreciated.

Paul
I have a horrible feeling that you have just stuck a stick in a wasps nest. A well rebuilt and maintained A7 engine will give very reliable service as will properly rebuilt brakes. Yes people have used Reliant engines, mainly in specials and for racing. I am not an engineer, but knowing that hydraulic conversions require beefing up parts of the front end, I can imagine that if it were possible to fit dics brakes the first application would probably break all the wheel spokes, the chassis would stay where it was and the body would carry on for a 100yards.
Whilst I am all in favour of safety features such as flashing indicators, and possible conversions to 12 volts to get better lights, surely the whole point of having an Austin Seven is to enjoy the cars as they were originally made.
It's your car and your money, but at least you have asked for suggestions first, so all may not be lost yet.

Hi Paul,

I am having similar thoughts to you for my 1934 Ruby. I have already started on a brake conversion - hydraulic brakes using a drum set-up, which are fairly readily available from spares suppliers (got mine from 7 County Austins), not cheap, but what price your safety and comfort knowing the car will stop when you press the pedal! You will need the later MkII Ruby stub axles and rear axle to fit the new components to - these often come up on e-bay.

I was chatting to other club members at our local meet last night and they all seemed quite happy with their cable set-up, BUT reading around the topic, the brakes were reported as never being very good when new and would appear to require constant adjustment to maintain some sort of effectiveness.

If you are going to use the car regularly, as I intend to do, then a confidence in your brakes is a must. The hydraulic set-up should give you as good brakes as you can reasonably expect for an old car such as these. I have not done mine yet, all the bits are ready to be fitted.

It would be sensible to check for other worn suspension/steering components whilst down there.

I have also bought a new re-manufactured steering arm linkage - some original items are failing due to metal fatigue - see the Association Website for my info.

As for the engine, I don't know, but what about a supercharger?!*!

I am also considering using LED for the stop/tail lamps and the side lights to reduce the demand from the electrical system. A halogen light conversion for the headlights seems also quite a good idea.

You should also inform your Insurance Company of any modifications you make so as not to invaildate your insurance cover.

Who cares if the car has been altered from its factory finish - these cars would have had so many alterations over their long life, difficult to determine what is original or not. The important thing is that the cars get used, their presence noticed in a positive way and FREE of restrictions. I feel that this is more important than worrying that the paint shade of the coachwork differs from the factory or that the tyres no longer have their original air - that is for museum pieces not usable cars that are safe to drive in today's hectic driving conditions.

Good luck with your car & enjoy it!

Gary

Paul

I too am not an engineer, however I suggest you get your hands on a copy of L. M. ( Bill ) Williams book 'Austin Seven Specials - Building, Maintenance and Tuning" often to be found on ebay - don't be put off by the mention of specials in the title. This book was first published in 1958, but I would suggest that a lot of the advise within is probably as sound today as it was then. There's a chapter on brakes including the conversion to hydraulics. The problems David Waller has highlighted re substantially increased braking stresses on axle beam, radius rods, stub axles, chassis etc are fully explored. These parts were never designed to withstand these sorts of stresses and I'd assume that a disc brake conversion would add even greater stresses than a hydraulic one. Certainly Bill Williams suggests for hydraulic conversions, fitting late Ruby front axle, radius rods and possibly rear axle to earlier Seven chassis.
I recommend you study this book before moving your project forward. Let us all know how you get on.

Cheers
Jeff Taylor

Im currently re-building the enging in my 7 after wearing the last one out, sat next to the Austin in the shed is a 1971 Kubota garden tractor with a 15bhp 2 cylinder diesel engine. I've thought to myseld at least once what a wheeze it would be to fit it temporarily in the austin. The tractor is run on cooking oil currently so imagine the cheap motoring to be had, no tax, cheap fuel, cheap insurance. Marvelous. Oh and I doubt it would go quick enough to need to uprate the brakes.

Hi Paul

I own a special (the Colander) so originality is not exactly top of my priorities!!!
However I do think that modifications should be approached with some common sense, and the fact that you have asked for peoples thoughts shows that you are open to sensible suggestions I presume?

Ref the engine I think lots of people have done this conversion, but against this is the fact that several owners , particularly certain members of the Cornwall Club have and indeed are using their cars on a day to day basis as well as clocking up staggering mileages on long journeys all with the original engine.

Apart from oil leaks the only other major problem would surely be the crankshaft and lubrication system? A pheonix crank with or without pressure feed, a good overhaul with new bolts/lockwashers, pistons etc and maybe a SU carb and a bosch dizzy would give you all the power and reliability you will need for day to day use. This sort of modification is not really any different to many of the mods carried out in the old days which are refered to in some of the previously mentioned publications, so wont upset the purists.
As for the brakes I know of one or two people who are keen to uprate their brakes whether cable or hydraulic. The thing to bear in mind as others have pointed out is that the front suspension in particular is not stuck together very well, although the later parts are much better and stronger. Hydraulic DRUM conversions seem like something worth considering as people have been doing this for years and there is a wealth of information around covering the topic. If you fit DISC brakes remember that you would be losing your self servo effect from the drums. I would suggest you plan out the system carefully with regard to piston area of calipers and master cylinder size (bore and stroke). I did once think of mounting an additional brake disc on the propshaft/torque tube flange as a transmission brake in addition to the cable brakes? Not sure what the overstressed half shafts would think though!!!

Good luck whatever you decide and make sure you let the forum know!

Steve.

My advice would be to spend your money on making good the original Austin engine and brakes, I have done this myself and although it is not used as everyday transport I do fair a mileage in it. I have a Phoenix crankshaft fitted along with many other sympathetic mods such as an oil filter and proper oil seals instead of felt washers etc.
The cable brakes when set up and adjusted properly are not too bad, I can lock wheels up on mine (not all at the same time !), all the people who I have talked to regarding hydraulic conversions were of the opinion that it makes the brakes TOO good and all that happens is you end up skating down the road with locked wheels and possibly damaged axle and suspension parts.
I would try and find someone who has done it and have a test drive first to see if it what you want.

Phil

Hi Paul,

I have to go along with those who say keep to the original brakes but keep them well adjusted!

My car, a 1929 RK saloon, is my everyday car and I travel around 4,500 miles a year and I don't hang around when driving, 50+ mph being the norm!. I drive in the knowledge that my braking distance is limited by the size of my tyres. If, once adjusted and well maintained, your A7 original brakes can lock up the wheels then that is as good as you will ever get the braking efficiecy of the car. If you lock up the wheels and skid then you aren't going to stop.

The kingpins are 1/2" diameter with a lubrication hole drilled down the centre, any excessive braking effect on the front wheels will overload the kingpins causing damage or wear. Have you looked at the amount of material there is at the end of the axle where the king pin fits ?

Why put hydraulics on a car which introduces new problems when the rubbers fail, at least you can rig up some sort of braking if a cable brakes ( virtually unheard of ) but if one hydraulic cylinder fails all brakes fail unless you use a split system.

KIS keep it simple, just like most aspects of Austin Sevens

I do commend you on your desire to use the car every day, they thrive on it !

regards
Malcolm

Paul - some further thoughts on brakes. In 1929 Autocar conducted road tests on a Trojan, a Morris Minor, a Triumph Super 7 and an Austin 7. From 30mph the Austin stopped in a shorter distance than the others, bearing in mind that the Triumph had hydraulic brakes. So were Austin brakes originally so bad? As one who's worked on over 200 Sevens, built specials and racing cars, a few with, most without hydraulics, I'd suggest that the best mod for a 1934 Seven is convert to the late-'36-on semi-Girling set-up, including cross-shaft,levers & drums etc. Then you're not altering the originality so much that many would even notice, but giving yourself the best on a system that is after all limited by drum size. For many years I drove a '37 Ruby regularly into our very busy City (Melbourne) at traffic-flow speed, and on Freeways (sorry, Motorways), never had any trouble stopping. Previously I'd had another '37 bought already-fitted with hydraulic brakes and in a period where I thought originality was most important, changed everything back to original semi-Girling. (In truth I also wanted the hyd. set-up for a racer). But I noticed no difference in stopping power. This despite the Ruby is nearly double the weight of an early Chummy. The answer is to ensure everything's in very good condition. Re kingpins, advice given was good, although it isn't the pin that wears so much as the axle boss (it bells out) holding it - which proves the point the writer was making. Discs are a bit far out of left field, unless you fit a complete front end from some other make. Why bother? Just another opinion to perhaps help/confuse you. Cheers from Oz, Bill

I deduce from your first post, Paul, that your reason for considering a modern engine is reliability, rather than the desire to cruise at 60. I have a friend with a tuned Box saloon that will cruise at 60 and I gather it can be a tense experience.

I've seen a Ruby fitted with an ohv Reliant engine and box - fair bit of cutting about needed,which I suspect will be true of most alternatives. All very well thinking Reliant, Hillman Imp,etc. The spares situation is probably better for the A7 engine.

I think you could build a reliable, bombproof, lightly tuned A7 engine. It might well cost heading for 2k by the time you've finished, of course, but you won't have to cut the car about.

If you make it fast enough to need disc brakes you're going to have to start doing chassis/suspension modifications - or fit a roll cage! I'm with Bill on the brake front. If you do fit hydraulics you really need tyres and suspension to match to take advantage of their potential.

I applaud your intent to use the car regularly. I haven't used a 7 as an everyday car since 1979. It was ok doing that then - standard car. Maintenance schedule every weekend, of course - see lubrication chart.

My daughter has just bought a MK 3(?) VW Polo estate for £300 with year's test. Excellent little car, runs on fresh air, bits are cheap, park it anywhere and don't worry...Not what you have in mind, I know, but just a thought.

Regards, Stuart

I see there are some interesting views on the Seven brakes, so I’ll poke a stick in a wasp’s nest. I have owned a hydraulic braked RN saloon since 1962, this was the subject of an article in Car Mechanics in August 1958, and a cable braked RN from 1981.
In the 1960s there was a problem due to the lack of suitable linings, most were too hard and useless, which may have encouraged people to fit hydraulic brakes. However prior to buying our cable braked car our spares suppliers (see separate theme on supporting our spares suppliers) introduced an excellent soft rubber like lining which makes the cable braked car stop as well as the hydraulic braked car. This was illustrated driving to Woolaton Park a couple of years ago in the hydraulic braked car and I had to do an emergency stop, Sue was following in the cable braked one and stopped with no bother. In terms of brake lining area per unit weight the Seven is more than adequately braked, the biggest problem is poor application, due to wear in the pins and bushes of both the brakes and front suspension and brake levers pointing the wrong way. I used the cable braked car to commute into Manchester with no worries, the biggest problem is not your Seven failing to stop it’s the dozy modern driver behind you have to worry about.
Apart from mastering the art of driving on ice in the winter of 1963 and on the wet cobbled streets of Stockport, I’ve not managed to lock up the wheels of the hydraulic braked car. This confirms what the proprietor of a local wire wheel rebuilding company reported about the owners of high-powered vintage cars complaining of his wheels collapsing. His comment was what do they expect they have increased the power output, fitted modern tyres with more grip and the Councils have replaced all the low grip road surfaces. The foregoing would suggest that there is little difference in braking stresses on the suspension between cable and hydraulic brakes.
Finally our first RN is undergoing a rebuild, it’s second, and this includes conversion to cable brakes because as Malcolm says KIS and availability of spares-I think the source of hydraulic seals etc will dry up before cables, pins and bushes.
Dave