I have just about finished the engine rebuild on the '28 Chummy.

Today I came to fit the starting handle dog into the end of the new Phoenix Crankshaft only to find that the shank bottoms before it tightens onto the timing gear.

I will have to get the shank spun down to make it fit properly. This is the first time I have fitted a Phoenix Shaft into a magneto engine and others thinking of doing the same may find this useful to know.

It is not a problem on the coil engines as the starting handle dog is threaded all the way up to the head.

Spread the word, if I'd known I could have finished the engine today!!

Cheers

Ruairidh

Can I check that I understand this right. Are you saying that there is no counterbore to the threads at the front of the crank?

Martin

Very little, maybe 1/8".

I have fitted many of these shafts into Coil engines with no problems but this is the first in a Mag. engine.

It's just for information as little things like this can be prepared in advance if known about.

Cheers

R

Ruairidh,

You are the second person within the past month to mention this. I have fitted 1 5/16" splash-fed Phoenix cranks into magneto engines before with no trouble, and I haven't heard about this problem during the past 15 years or so. I pulled an old Phoenix crank out yesterday just before sending it off to a friend of mine, and spun a starter dog into it - no problems, although I didn't have time to fish out a timing gear and try that. I also got an original Austin 1 5/16" crank, and the starter dog fitted exactly the same. If anything, there was more counterbore in the Phoenix than the Austin one (which had none). Could it have been the end of the dog hitting the bottom of the hole?

I will investigate further when I get the next batch from Phoenix (should be end of this month).

Cheers,
David

Both Phoenix shafts I have out of engines at the moment were bought last year and both have the same problem. The other three I have are in my cars at the present, (and hopefully will be for some time to come!), but are fitted to coil engines.

If you do investigate further it may transpire that a batch have been made like this?? When was your friends one showing similar problems made?

I am having two starting handle dogs spun down so they fit, a bit of a blip in the engine rebuild as everything else is done.

Would be interested in what your investigations turn up, I will post photo/s up of exactly what the problem is over the w/e.

Cheers

Ruairidh

I have the starting handle dogs back one fits well but the other will need a little more spun off to allow it to go all the way home into the counterbore.

David, did you get anywhere with your investigations??

Cheers

Ruairidh

Not yet. See my previous post!

Sorry David, read your post in a hurry and missed out that point!

Cheers

Ruairidh

Ruairidh asked:

> did you ever get anywhere with finding out about the problems with Phoenix Crankshafts and Magneto starting handle dogs??

There has been a delay in the delivery of the next batch of Phoenix cranks - I hope to have them in about 3-4 weeks; I will check the fit of the starter dogs then. Since my last post, I have heard other reports of poor quality manufacture of these cranks - I don't know if it's coincidental that these were all sourced from one particular supplier. It was surmised that they could have been rejects sold off for a reduced price.

Remind me again in a month if I haven't posted more about this!

David

Would be VERY interested to hear more on this David...

Cheers

Ruairidh

Hi Ruairidh,

I collected a batch of cranks from Phoenix yesterday and had a good look at them. A standard Austin mag-engine starter dog fitted them perfectly, just as well as to the original Austin item and the 15-year-old Phoenix crank I mentioned in a previous posting. Also the other problem I had heard from various people (a large lump on the centre of the shaft) was not apparent.

I asked Phoenix about these problems and they knew about them. Apparently the foundry they use had made a batch that were not up to the required standard, so they had been thrown into the skip for recycling. Someone at the scrap company had pinched them out of the skip and had them machined, and somehow they had been sold to unsuspecting Austin 7 owners as the genuine article. I would be very interested to know where your dodgy ones came from (and I suspect Phoenix would as well!)

Slightly off topic: I asked them to make a pressure-fed 1 5/16" for a friend's original Ulster - he has the original crank but is reluctant to use it in anger. Phoenix told me this was the only one of this type they'd ever made.

Cheers,
David

Right - now this is getting complicated! I had a long call from Robert Leigh who has come across the same problem as Ruairidh with the mag-engined starter dog not fitting a Phoenix crank. I have also looked carefully at the various broken cranks I have around (I sometimes wonder why I keep old rubbish like this, but it is occasionally useful!). If you look at mag-engine and coil-engine starter dogs you will see that they are different in that the former has a long shoulder of just over 3/8" before the thread starts. The coil starter dog has a much shorter one (5/32"). An Austin 1 5/16" crank just has a slight taper, whereas a mag-engined 1 1/8" crank has a recess of about ½". A Phoenix crank from my latest batch has a recess of about 9/32".

However, we must bear in mind that mag-engined cranks were only made in the 1 1/8" size, and the Phoenix cranks are made to be interchangeable with the standard Austin 1 5/16" type. So in this area they are actually perfectly OK, and the problem that Ruairidh, Robert et al are having is because we are trying to do something non-standard. I am still rather puzzled as to why this problem hasn't come to light before now, because the broken 1 5/16" crank I have has no recess, just a taper, so how was it ever fitted in my Chummy more than 40 years ago? And what about all those other people who have fitted an 1 5/16" cranks in a mag engine?

Some dimensions may be useful (please correct me if I've got any of these wrong). Length of front shaft is 2 11/32" (measured on Phoenix and both sizes of Austin). Width of main bearings 13/16”. Width of timing gear 13/16". Total of bearings and timing gear is therefore 2 7/16", leaving an overlap of 3/32". The gap between the flange of the mag-engined starter dog and the front of the Phoenix crank is 9/32", so about 3/16" needs to be turned off the shoulder of the dog.

Phoenix can't make the recess in the front of the crank any deeper because there would then be insufficient thread to engage the coil starter dog.

Another (minor) point: I was wondering how Austin fitted a coil starter dog into a thin crank. However, reference to a 1929 Spare parts list shows that the first coil starter dogs were different from the later ones: they look like a mag-engined one with a shorter shaft.

I hope all this rather long-winded guff makes sense... I will write about the other problem (with photos) when I have more data.

David