Good evening all,

I have been kindly given an early Side Valve Reliant engine which I have stripped to find a wealth of useful looking parts. Having read Chris Gould's article "A Poor mans Grasshopper Engine" I have begun to ponder the possibility of building an Austin/Reliant Hybrid which could provide me with a reasonably priced tough touring engine.

I would be really grateful to hear from anyone who has carried out this modification and any details they have on specific modifications would be appreciated. I do realise that there is significant work involved but I have both time and enthusiasm!

All the best

Tom

On this subject, has anyone considered using a Fiat Panda engine? Having bought several for the kids to wear out, the only thing that seems to kill them is rust - the engines seem unburstable and the little 750 is a gem! I presume it wouldn't be too difficult for someone with the proper workshop facilities to adapt for use in a Seven. (If it was me I'd have the bonnet welded shut so no-one could peek and see why my '7' was capable of over 80mph!)

Andy Storer's Type 65 has a Reliant crank in an Austin 3 brg case, using the A7 flywheel and clutch. The Reliant crank is too short to be machined to have a taper and thread for the flywheel nut, there's just enough for the taper. I think Andy overcame this by boring and threading the end of the Reliant crank and loctiting a stud in there to accept the flywheel nut. I seem to remember you need a "compression plate" under the block or the Reliant rods just touch the bottom of the bore. Also, usual mods needed to pressurise crank through centre main plus 9-studding of block and (from memory) cast ali "sump gauze" like Jack Cotton's 750 formula engine. I speak from memory of 30 years ago, but perhaps this will give you a clue. It has been suggested that if you do all the crankcase mods you can use a 3brg A7 crank without fear, but I'm not so sure!

Regards, Stuart

Thanks Stuart,
I like the thinking on the flywheel modification. I had thought about boring out the centre boss of a late flywheel and then mounting it in a similar way to the Beck flexible flywheel. This will depend if I can get the flywheel in the right place for the starter motor to engage.
The Reliant con-rods apparently do not fit according to Chris' article. I would however like to use them if I can as they look indestructable!
Does anyone know if the Austin Oil pump is sufficient for a pressure fed crank?
There certainly are some interesting engineering problems to solve with building such an engine!

Tom

Are you refering to the article in the 750 club companion? If not then have a look at that article, it gives some detail on how to do what you are asking.

Also this might be worth a look..... I thought about building up a 3 bearing engine after reading this!

http://speedexa7.users.btopenworld.com/index_files/Page2152.htm


Steve.

I shall probably see Andy on Wednesday and will ask if there's anything I've overlooked, but I can say for definite that he used Reliant rods. That engine has done enormous mileage since setting the end to end record of its day and is still running well with no bottom end snags, by the way.

The Austin oil pump is a remarkable thing. I've been playing with a few lately. I pulled a worn standard pump out of an engine under the bench. Horrid! Vanes and body scored. I flattened the base plate and ran it in a crankcase with the PRV locked down. It was giving over 120 ps1. A freshly rebuilt example bored 1/32" oversize gave 150 psi. Main problem is matching the prv spring to what you want while avoiding massive fluctuations at the oil gauge. If you get that far contact me and I'll tell you what spring I would use with the standard ball set up. There is merit in arrangements other than the Austin prv design but as far as I know all the works Ulsters and Grasshoppers used the same arrangement with a standard oil pump.
John Sutton's site is good on oil pumps, in my opinion.

Regards, Stuart

If you go down the line of using higher pressure, consider two pressure relief valves. Belt & braces? I don't see much point in blowing seals.
My mate Paul Rogers did a lot of research into ball & cone relief valves and he is persuasive on these points. Do you relieve the oil back into the system? Where do you put the filters or traps? Does the ball stay spherical or the seat symmetrical?
How much does a Hillman (some are in use) or an Austin oil pump pulse or fluctuate?

Tom,

I have seen a reliant crank in an austin engine, you have to machine the taper on the end, there is no other way of fitting the rear main. Im not sure that there is much to gain using a floppy flywheel on a 3brg engine if you make the centre main work properly.

If you are seriously considering running a 3 brg engine in anger i would suggest your first stage is to read alot of books on hydrodynamic lubrication. They can be made to work very well but not by using standard centre main shells. The oil supply to the centre main and the centre cam bearing needs to be modified.

I have a nippy three bearing crankcase (feet are in the position for the high frame chassis) which I intend to use for a mad three bearing at some point, need to finish my ulster first.

Stuart,
Im interested in your comments on pressurising the crank from the centre main, does this involve drilling holes in the webs and adding pipes between throws?

Regards

Rob

Thanks to everyone for their enthusiastic and informative comments.
The use of the flexible flywheel type mount was mainly thinking about carrying out minimal machining and keeping the flywheel as far forward as possible. Chris Goulds engine needed a spacer between the bell housing and gearbox as the flywheel was so far back. I realise that it would not be beneficial in the way Mr Beck or Dr Fred really intended.
I am glad that the Reliant Rods can be used as the only real concern I had was achieving the off centre con-rod modification performed by Mr Gould.
I now need to get hold of all of the parts! Anyone have an Austin 3-bearing bottom half laying around that they don't want?

All,
I was inspired by Chris Gould's articles on his engine and collected together a set of parts in the eighties. Unfortunately they are still only a set of parts.

Firstly if you're thinking of going this way read Chris's articles and other elated ones by Walt Weaton and Vince Leak in the 750 Bulletin and grey A7CA mags. I remember Chris was pretty peeved at the time as his material was doctored for publication and I was one of only two that expressed any interest back to him - the second person wanted to buy a complete engine! Special building and modifying engines is much more fashionable now. Secondly - get in touch with Chris - he was only too willing as all A7 people are to help and pass on what he could. I've got a copy of his drawings and sketches.

On the specifics; The crank will go into an A7 case but both need a bit of surgery. Chris fitted the Reliant flywheel and a modern (then) clutch with a spacer between the crankcase and gearbox. Others have turned off the flange and formed a taper fitting the flywheel with a stud or bolt. I have heard that some have had cracks in the tail of the crank from this. This does also allow you to use a roller bearing similar to the A7. I was going to make my own flywheel with inner dimensions to suit the Reliant flange and outer and fore and aft dimensions to suit the A7 clutch cover. My measurements and drawings suggest it just fits together. Con rods are about 1/8" longer than A7 and thicker in section. You need a plate under the block and may need to relieve the bottom on the bores - as in the Reliant crankcase. Problems start to mount with the main bearings. Chris used modified Reliant housings and shell bearings. With three main bearings and four big ends all pressurised more oil flow is needed.

As described in previous posts, the A7 pump can make lots of pressure but this type of engine also needs lots of flow as well. Jack French said somewhere (Simplicity series?) '....bearings need a thimble full for lubrication and a bucket full for cooling'. A bigger pump is needed; this many bearings would need a flow that would give next to no pressure and that would lead onto no flow to one or more of the bearings. The Reliant pump doesn't help much as it is driven twice as fast in the Relaint engine. A bigger pump could overload the A7 drive and also doesn't do much at tick over speeds. I have heard of double A7 oil pumps which may be a way forward but don't know any more than this about them - any ideas? Chris used a Mini pump driven off the front of the camshaft. This didn't look particularly A7 and he had a lot of problems with oil leaks. This is where my project foundered along with the arrival of family life for a number of years. The bits are still all there though so maybe in a few yesrs time.........?

A solution may be ball and roller front and rear main bearings as per A7 but from memory I think the big ends are fed via these main bearings so that would have to be overcome?

This isn't a weekend project and involves a machining mission. Why not just fit the Reliant engine as it is, all the tuning goodies go on virtually bolt on?

Dave

Double A7 oil pumps - my late departed dear friend Mike Davis attempted this. Take one conventional A7 oil pump, braze a second body onto the bottom of it. Bore oversize by the normal amount to ensure everything is aligned. Take the drive shaft and extend by more brazing to enable you to fit two sets of vanes. Fit to engine. Needs a deeper sump, obviously. We never really got to the end of this because his mod suffered a calamitous failure when (if memory serves) the brazing on the extended shaft failed. Sadly, he seccumbed to his illness before a satisfactory solution was found. But that's the approach, anyway... I guess the next step would be to make a new shaft with a deeper yoke to account for the deeper chamber. A further development might be to make new vanes of a similar depth rather than using two normal sets.

Refering to the Speedex article I posted link too re centre bearing alignment, has anyone considered using a 3 bearing bottom end with the standard Austin crank.
The article seems to suggest that breakage problems are/were caused by alignment issues, so life would be better with the mods sugggested (for the crankshaft not neccesarily the owner).
This would be really easy as far as I can see?

Steve

Steve,
This might seem an incestuous reply but the engine photographed in the piece about fitting the centre bearing is just about finished awaiting the rest of the Speedex. This isn't the first I've built with the shim alignment. It's got all the usual tuning gizmo's and is only unusual in being a three bearing and having extra oil system mods (oversize pump and restricted feeds to the cam bearings) to push as much oil as possible to the centre main. And don't bolt it down hard on four feet - use the spring loaded holding down bolts shown in the Green book.

In the sixties and seventies the 3 main crank had a very bad reputation and seeing some of the bodges I've dismantled on centre mains this is hardly surprising. The two bearing had a reputation of also breaking eventually; especially if you pushed it. I imagine to Chris Gould wanting to get a reliable 10,000 mile engine he had to go to the Reliant crank. Now there's the Pheonix crank that seems bullet proof and the reason behind three breaing problems is wider known; I didn't work it out - Jack French publicised it in 'In Sheep's Clothing' - in the Green book. My own measurements just back up his conclusions. Three bearing engines were tried in the sixties in the 750 Formula, reving a two bearing crank between 6 and 7 thou brought many engine blow ups. There's a good article about a Formula three bearing engine in the Bulletin of that time. It seems that the understanding of the problem wasn't broadcast to the A7 car drivers and the folklaw about them took over.

If you want a strong engine now the Phoenix is the way to go and it's all new parts as well avoiding the unknown abuse that original parts may have had. If you want something almost as good and cheaper try the three bearing. The trick is getting a crank that isn't cracked or about to (they go across the centre circular webs usually starting in the fillet of the centre main journal). I was fortunate finding a standard sized crank that didn't even need a regrind, a Remax probably fitted after a previous engine disaster?

Logic says don't bother with the Reliant crank, similar results can be had from other cranks more easily fitted. True, but, to a A7 special builder this isn't about logic (we wouldn't drive A7 if we were totally logical?), perhaps the Reliant crank is to us what Everest is to mountaineers??!!

Dave

As I understand it replica Grasshopper blocks and inlet/exhaust manifolds are available and crankcases will be available soon.

Can you tell us a little bit more about the Grasshopper blocks and crankcases that you refer to. From whom will they be available and what are the specifications?

Replica Grasshopper engine blocks crankcases are made by Dave Flake at Quarry Engineering

Reliant cranks!
It was all to do with the availability of new crankshafts for Austin 7 racers. (750 formula and Historic). In the sixties the supply of new Longbridge made 2 bearing cranks dried up. N.O.S 3 bearing cranks were still about in the early seventies, as were N.O.S. Remax 2 brg. 1 5/16”. I still have one in the box, it cost me £5.00 and the last close ratio gear set was thrown in, this after the fire at Super Accessories in 1971.
The Remax never had the reputation of the Longbridge crank.
Of course the 3 brg. Engine was used successfully for racing, Chapman, Cotton, Whitehouse etc. etc. but it was an engine that was beyond the average special builder.
Because of the dwindling supplies of new Austin parts the 750 formula was changed in the sixties to allow the use of the newish O.H.V. 600 cc. Reliant engine alongside the Austin side valve engine.
Some time later the side valve Reliant engine was also allowed.
In the early seventies the regs. were modified again to allow the side valve cars to be supercharged, I think by which time the O.H.V. engines were running at 700 cc.
The most successful 750 side valve Reliant engined car was the Warren-Reliant which was built probably late 60’s and was mid engined. For the year of the new supercharged 750 formula it was fitted with a belt driven C75B Shorrock supercharger. I think it won the championship that year.
The historic racers were moving in different direction though and were restricted to 2 brg. cranks.
John Miles designed and commissioned Allen crankshafts to make a batch of new billet turned En 40 1 1/2’” pressure fed cranks to take Renault 4 con. rods.
Meanwhile Chris Gould was building the record attempt Ulster and Stuart Rolt was building engines for the newly introduced 750 M.C. Historic Austin Seven racing formula.
Both used new Reliant s.v. parts. However the crank needed to be rather drastically modified to fit in the Austin crankcase.
Chris Goulds approach was to cut off the front of the crank and make new plain bearing housings to fit the Austin crankcase thus still using plain bearings throughout and not having to modify the crank drillings. The flywheel flange was left as standard which meant the flywheel was further back than the Austin position which then needed a spacer which in turn put the gearbox further back. I think Chris used Austin 3 brg. Con. rods.
Stuart Rolts approach was a bit more radical. He machined the flywheel flange to a taper to accept an Austin flywheel in the standard position and the rear was drilled and tapped to take a 3/4” stud. The front of the crank was left unmolested thus providing a suitable drive shaft for superchargers etc.
Front and rear oil feeds were plugged. The oil feed to all the big ends was then via the centre main bearing. New oilway drillings from centre main to 2 and 3 big ends and then to 1 and 4. The oil pump was overbored Austin. Oil feed to the camshaft bearings was restricted. The front and rear mains were ball/roller as Austin. Con. rods were Reliant thus using either a spacer under an Austin block or a modified Reliant block. As far as I know he made 4 engines; Kevin Martin, Eddie Marriot, Andy Storer and Janet Willment.
Eddie Marriots and Janet Willments engine were supercharged.
After Kevin Martin gave up Austin Seven racing I inherited his engine. It had only ever been used unblown and had not given much trouble although never seeming to be quite as crisp as a well used Austin engine. We used Castrol R30 engine oil.
This particular engine had been built with Reliant parts, new crankshaft, new con. rods, new Reliant block.
It was eventually installed in my 1934 Saloon, which I was using for 750 MC. racing. It wasn’t very fast! (I didn’t have anything else running at the time)
A Shorrocks C75B was soon fitted and then the limitations of the engine started to show up.
The problem was to do with the now overworked centre main bearing. The oil pressure was never high, usually 50lbs cold, 25lbs hot. I spent a season where I was always changing the centre main shells after practice and sometimes finishing a race with very marginal oil pressure or not finishing at all. Surprisingly, the big end bearings never gave any trouble at all.
Eventually I fitted an external belt driven Ford Escort oil pump from Burtons. I also changed to Mobil 1 synthetic oil. This fed the centre main alone and would run at 100lbs all day. The overbored Austin oil pump was replaced by a standard Austin pump and the restrictions to the camshaft bearings were removed. The Austin pump fed only the camshaft bearings at standard pressure,(about 3lbs v.hot)
I ran the car very successfully for a further 4 years until the crank broke during the 6 hour relay race at Snetterton in 199?? It hasn’t been used since!
Please forgive me if some of the dates are wrong, all of this is from memory. I am sitting in a hot hotel room in Central India, 1000’s of miles from any reference books.
Anyway, if you must, I think it’s probably best and far simplest to use a Reliant crankcase with a Reliant crank.

Just a further thought. If new Grasshopper crankcases are being made are they 3 brg? If so who's making the crankshafts? Can a 3 brg. Grasshopper crankshaft and con. rods fit in a standard crankcase?

Wow, thank you Graham, this is just the kind of information that it wanted. The experience of others who have tried this before. I will have to have a chat with you about it when you are next at the Roebuck with Mr Bradshaw.
My Dad talked to Chris Gould about his record car at last years Bentley Wild Fowl Rally. Apparently a crank and rods were designed for him by a friend at Ricardo who used to work on Vanwall’s (please correct me Dad if I’ve got this wrong and you are read it!) I know for sure that Paul Bonewell made the con rods for the car which were in place for the record attempt I believe that these were later replaced with Austin rods and Paul still has the "specials" which may go into another project if he feels so inspired. Apparently the redesigned crank got to the version 3 stage. A guy from (I think) the Netherlands had the only crank made to the final drawing. This crank is now in his Pearl!

The idea of putting a bearing reliant crank in a car was to try and get a cheap and reliable road engine which would probably ( ) never see the track. I think I can surmise from everything I have read that the main problem is oil flow. I like the idea of a dual pump system like you implemented. But there is the usual problem of driving the chosen pump.
I believe that the oil pump from a Yamaha R6 motorbike may have been used or suggested by someone, and having looked at one they certainly look the part but some how I don't think the VSCC would like it!
I have obtained an Austin 3 bearing case crank and rods and I am in the process of stripping it down. I slotted the Reliant Rods into place but the big end bolt on the near side fouls the camshaft. I presume the rods are ground back to relieve this problem as I would have thought there is sufficient meat there.

Your memory is quite right about the man at Ricardos.
We chatted until nearly everyone had gone and Chris said "I wonder if it will still do its party piece?" So he started it up took a 50p piece from his pocket and stood it up on edge on the bonnet - not a tremble.

Apologies if the moment has passed somewhat but Tom if by any chance you haven't got around to this project yet I have A7 engines with 3 brg Reliant cranks in both my Nippy and my Ulster rep. - I have covered many, many miles all over Europe in the last 30 years and have found them very reliable. If set up correctly the C/M is no trouble and you eliminate the issues associated with crank whip as well as getting pressure feed to your big ends, 2 advantages over the Phoenix route. The finished job is a lot simpler than you might think from the sum of the posts above. I also have a spare engine in bits on the bench at the moment if you want to get a close look.

Tom - I just tried and failed to email you. Could you contact me again?

Location: Lewisham, London.

Hello David

Thank you for copying me with the Reliant attachments. I will forward them on to Tom.

He is very busy at work and may not have seen the latest postings.

Location: South-east Surrey

I'm going to have to dig out my notes. Was interesting to reread the above. It's a fascination.

David

Location: Lewisham, London.

All of the above made my head hurt

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Australia