I have discovered this car was in Ireland in the 1970s owned by Tony Dowling. He sold it back to the UK. I wonder if the car still exists today? I hope it has not been broken-up to create another bitsa special? The engine was supposed to be ex works. Hope someone can help.
Simon Thomas

You could try googling "LMW special" and have a look at the first offering....there is a photo on this site somewhere but I can't do a neat link.

Regards, Stuart

So has the reputed works engine been put into another car? If so what has become of the special? Why was this not considered to be as important? Is the engine in another less important special or a replica....hard to understand if this is the case.
Confused of Comber, again.
Simon Thomas

Hi
I believe I saw this Car in my good friend Andy Storer's Garage (one of many Lock Ups)in must have been around 1975, if that helps at all. It was without Engine at that time .....
Best regards to all
Peter

Location: Spain

Thread here talking about it, (in amongst TT cars).

The engine is now in David Howe's car, via Martin Eyre, IIRC Stuart has the rest of the car.

Lets not start another slanging match about what is and isn't a real car...

Location: Buxted

Hi Peter!!

Yes I remember it, there, but I think you are wrong about the engine. When I remember it, it had,I think, a BMC A series fitted, and it worked, because I remember driving it. (probably illegally)

Austin,

Thank you for the reference. That was an excellent exchange on the confused world of factory cars etc. The remaining cars are as mixed up as the original works Austin cars were at the time.
Strikes me that as long as any interesting car is now supplied with the best description of the component parts and history, this is all we can ask.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

Blimey, I'm shattered having re-read all of that.

Hi all

Slightly off thread but maybe of interest to those who read through all of the thread on "works Ulsters".

First of all, if I ever have the money and express any interest in buying an "ex works Ulster" Someone shoot me!

To put it all in context the history of my Nova might be of interest, as competion cars do wear out, get crashed and generaly modified during their life.

In the first 12 years after leaving the factory my Rally then Race Nova had;

2 Body shells.
4 bottom ends.
In excess of 5 cylinder heads.
4 gear boxes.
3 rear axle beams.
4 sets of front suspension components.
3 different carb set ups.
3 steering racks.
At least 16 wheels, may have been 20.

Most other parts, even the fuel tank was modified by the end of my ownership.

We worked out that the only parts remaining un modified and original as built by Vauxhall, were the gear lever and the drivers side door lock!

I see no reason why 1930's competion cars were any different. Running on rough roads at the limit of performance destroys cars!

All the best

Stuart.

Location: Devon

Stuart, I'd have to give you " SPOT ON " status with your previous comments which clearly state what competition IS all about. I built and competed Austin 7's, Riley's and a Monster of a Speed 20 Sumbeam which I blew up in Gap on the way to a Monte Carlo or Bust.....

Denis Jenkinson (Jenks) once summed it up for me while helping me dissmount the Radiator of the Sumbeam on practice friday at Oulton Park, as I was in a tizz over something falling off.... His comments " Peter, it's NOT changed since Racing began, necessity IS the Mother of Invention. IF you need a solution, YOU improvise to solve the BL.... problem." Those words have stuck with me over the years. While I fully respect the view of the purists, I've always been at the fighting end of competition and usually without ANY money. Example, having won a number of the events on the Queens Silver Jubelee on the Isle of Man 76 / 77, and blowing the engine sky high on the last event, I refused to go to the Prize giving unless the Car was running..... Andy Hastings (God I love that Boy) and three of us totally extracted, REBUILT and installed that engine in 4hrs....Bits just appeared from Tents, back of A7's, under the Bed......An explosion of activity on the Camp Site next to the Winning line of the TT course. Oiled up as we where, GOD what a Party...
To quote Mike Costigan, who kindly dug up some very old photo's this week... THOSE WHERE THE DAYS.....

God, I miss them AND the people that made them happen.

Location: London

I think the crankcase number is 126177 which would make it one of the production 10 stud supercharged runs.

Firstly, can I thank old friends for contacting me again after so many years. At the risk of being shot at, can anybody enlighten me on the following. I've always had the feeling the HMW was possibly the inspiration for the Lotus Elite, a friend here in Spain owned one of the first 34 Elite's which where all Racing models with Coventry climax engine's. Derick Bailey of Hydroplane fame and ex mucker of one Bernie Eccelstone and I are in deep disagreement on this subject, can / would anybody wish to comment because to me the lines are very close.....!!! And surely it must have at least provided some inspiration.....

Peter, its about time you bought an Austin Seven again!

I do believe, Bill Williams and Colin Chapman had a falling out over the similarity of the LMW and the Lotus Elite. They were, I think very similar, except the LMW body is aluminium, I think, not plastic.

Alan
Yes, the LMW was aluminum and yes the Elite was certainly Fibreglass, what I'm most interested in WHEN was the LMW design & build finalized and WHEN was the elite because that will most certainly set the pace. Also WHAT was the relationship between Chapman and Williams.....
It's an intriguing puzzle

Peter

Austin Seven Specials, was first published in November 1958 and there are pictures of it in there, so some time before that date. When did the Lotus Elite first emerge? After that would be my guess, about 1960?

Stuart.

Edit. Should have googled first! "Making its debut at the 1957 London Motor Car Show, Earls Court, the 14 spent a year in development, aided by "carefully selected racing customers", before going on sale."

Location: Devon

The Lotus Elite first appeared at Earls Court in October 1957. The LMW, as far as I know, was first registered in December of the same year. Its likely therefore that they were concurrent. Colin Chapman married a girl called Hazel Williams, I'd heard it was Bill William's daughter, but don't know if thats true or not.
I know a guy who probably knows the truth, if he's reading this

Location: Comber, County Down

Pete, my book will appear in the next month or two and (if you can wait!) your questions will be answered!
Glad to hear you're still about!
All the best, Stuart

Location: Buxted

Austin
No problem at all.Just wonder if it is one of the XA series? I know it is not XA 155.
Simon

Location: Comber, County Down

Sorry about the confusion. I was looking at an ancient copy of the Ulster "Register".
126177 is an unblown 8 stud engine and is not installed in David Howes car.
Davids car has an un-numbered very late production 10 stud blown crankcase.
It does not have an XA number by the oil filler.

Location: Comber, County Down

I took this photo at Shelsley, and I do have copy of a write up that David did of the history of the engine as it passed between cars. It is a photo of the document that was placed with the car at Beauleiu or somewhere. The engine was in the LMW from 57-71. Martin Eyre bought AUY and LMW and put the engine in the chassis.
The story goes that Charles Goodacre identified the engine in 1972 by some additional holes he put in the crankcase.

As a caveat to all this I am no expert on the TT or much else for that matter. I have broken my own rule of never commenting on anything TT related.

Great news about the book Stuart, as soon as you know how much it will be let me know and I will get a cheque in post!

Location: Guildford

It's a car that was not entered by the works in the 1930 or 1931 season in competition. Pretty simple really.

It has a new body, an unnumbered engine and a questionable chassis. How from that can anyone conclude that it is a 1931 Works Car?

A bitsa at best.

Scott

Gentlemen
There will be no further comments from Ulster on this thread or the subject as it has developed.
Simon

Location: Comber, County Down

I am constantly amazed how both sides of this ongoing vexed argument state so their facts so categoricaly- if they were there during the 20's and 30's they must be going on 100 - and probably senile

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

Stuart

Can I kindly reserve a Signed copy please...
Best regards
Peter

In June 1936 Alf Depper purchased from the factory an Ulster Chassis No:-XE 1030, with Body No:-2031 and Engine No:-XE 25. [ Engine No:-XE 25 having replaced the unnumbered Engine which Bill Williams subsquently used in the LMW special ].
Engine No:-XE 25,was changed to an eight stud unblown Ulster Engine No:-126177.
In 1976 Wayne Styles from Melbourne Australia purchased the car.

Location: New Forest,Hants

In my post of Feb 20th, It should have read " Chassis No:-XE 1030,with Car No:-XE 2031,and Engine No:-XE 25." Not Body No:-2031, Sorry.

Location: New Forest,Hants

David Howe's car is Chassis No:-130185. a 1930/31 TT Chassis.
It is NOT Chassis No;-XE 1030. the 1935 chassised Ulster that Wayne Styles purchased in 1976.
It can be seen from Henry Harris's list that Chassis No;-130185. is Car No:-B3-3260. a Non supercharged chassis [Less Unit] sent to Mr Abrahams at the London Depot on the 4th November 1930.This chassis was probabely used on one of the 1931 Team Cars.
Chassis No;-XE 1030,comes after Chassis No:-XE 1026 a 1935 Grasshopper BOA 59 a Le Mans Car which is Car No:-XE 2027 add four and you arrive at Chassis No:-XE 1030 and Car No:-XE 2031.both 1935.
The answer to your question is NO,but I believe TWO different Cars!

Location: New Forest,Hants

Presumably we have 2 cars with the same registration number? or have I missed something.......

Will you all stop behaving like spoilt little girls and let us enjoy our Austin Sevens in peace
enough is enough have`nt we done this one to death in a previous posting lets move on, and enjoy the 90th anniversary

Glynn.

You are correct both cars have been registered with the same registration number AUY496.
The Orginal Car Chassis No:-XE 1030 was registered on the 30th June 1936 that Car was purchased by Wayne Styles in 1976 and exported to Australia.
On the 30th May 1984 DVLA records show that an application was made to re-issue the Registration number AUY496 to a Second Car which the DVLA records show as " Austin A30 Seven,Sports"
The Austin Seven Clubs Association Surviving Chassis Register shows the Second Car to have Chassis No:-130185 Engine No:-126177 and Car No:-2033. It is clear that the Engine No:126177 is incorrect as that engine, I understand remains with the Orginal Car Chassis No;XE 1030.The Second Car has NO Engine No.

Location: New Forest,Hants

Charles Onslow-Newton.

I think it is contended that although the Chassis is numbered 130185 [Thus retaining the 1931 provenance]it was subsquently issued with a new chassis identification plate,when it left the factory in 1936.
In "Story of a TT" Austin Seven Clubs Association Publication No:-2007B the first two lines explain the theory.It could also as easily have been 4th November 1931 the ledger says " 4.11 ".

Location: New Forest,Hants

David sorry:-Jon.

1942,views,may I suggest in the nicest possible way,DON'T OPEN,others believe the history of our cars is important especially in the 90th year.

Location: New Forest,Hants

Ian, we are, as the site says Friends,this post is openly dividedly points of view, lets just drop the title tatle. of who says what!!!!!!we can`nt relive 50 years ago, let`s please move on.....................

Jon - it's very easy to say let's all drop the subject and move on, but the next owner after Wayne Styles (John Hugh in Belgium) couldn't sell the Ulster because it's registration and history had been applied to another car, thus taking away not only it's value but it's provenance. Are you also willing to contact John Hugh and tell him to forget about it? I like most owners am interested in Austin Seven history but history has to be fact - it appears that history has been interfered with here and if so shouldn't be just swept under the floor carpets. Cheers, Bill in Oz

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Bill Sheehan.

Bill,
Thanks for your support and posting,I was begining to think I was on my own,and about to be censored by an anonym [by the name of no email JON].
Although I do sympathize with his sentiments,if he has no interest in actual History.
My posts are the recorded facts,NOT title tattle.

Location: New Forest,Hants

IAN, I am very much alive, and I do not hide behind anything or any body, I am know to the MANageMENT, and a lot of the other subscribers to this site

Charles Onslow-Newton.

Henry Harris's List shows:-

Chassis No:-130185 as a Non Supercharged Chassis.
Chassis No:-130186 as a Supercharged Chassis.
Chassis No:-130187 as a Supercharged Chassis.

As many will know Chassis No:-130187 is TT Ulster
Registration Number GW 82.

Location: New Forest,Hants

Jon - I'm sure you would have much more credence if you had the intestinal fortitude to identify yourself & from whence you come like almost everybody else does. For all we know you could even be the owner of the fake-history car attempting to put the matter to rest? Cheers, Bill in Oz

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Bill, I`m sorry you have taken this stance !
unlike yourself i`ve only been on the scene since the early 70s and have a 32`RN Box 33`Bill Williams Cambridge Special and a AAK 4str Open Tourer,
Hope these credentials are in order

The people that run this site have been talking about this thread and have come to a conclusion.

If you do not include an email address that you can be contacted on the post will be deleted. No options, if you can't stand by what you are writing in a public place then you probably shouldn't be saying it in public at all.

I do not want to delete the thread as there are good (and some bad) points raised.

As for the cars, you show me a car that has a continuous 80 year competition and development history that is 100% original. You can't because it's not possible, things break and get replaced. If you read reports from Brooklands at the time the cars broke all the time because it was so rough.

There are thoughts that the only bits that remained from race to race were the bodies, when you have a full production line at your disposal why risk re-using worn out bits? The TT bodies that do exist, the Canadian one and my dad's show huge amounts of cracking to the aluminium and have steel plates added to strengthen them.

Location: Buxted

If you want to see continuous racing histories I suggest you look at all of the ERA's to start with... Romulus (R2B) in particular.

The point being made here is that the car or cars in question cannot legitimately claim to be Actual Works TT Cars when they don't actually contain the constituent parts that were on a car entered by the works during the 1930/31 seasons.

Race entry forms required chassis no and engine no.

AUY 496 has an unnumbered engine therefore cannot have been entered in any International Race meeting by the Austin Works. To claim it is as being from a 1931 team car is incorrect as there is no evidence whatsoever to support those claims.

How can people be so sure that Charles Goodacre drove this car in specific events when nobody knows what the entered chassis number or details of his car was?

If this car was an Alfa Romeo or Bugatti it would have long ago been dismissed as a fake based on the actual facts (or lack of any evidence to support its owners claims). Why is this behaviour acceptable in the Austin Seven community?

So how many bits on Romulus haven't been replaced over the last 80 years? I would guess that a fair amount has been. It becomes Trigger's broom, 15 new heads and 12 new handles, it's still his broom though.

David's has always described his car as the development ulster, I haven't heard him saying that it was definitely entered in any races or describe it as a team car, whatever that means. I think it was entered into a couple of smaller events.

Goodacre himself identified the engine not the car, I believe it was nicknamed "blaster" or something similar.

There are plenty of dodgy Bugattis out there, the one that was pulled out of the lake has the same chassis number as one in Japan...

It can't be a fake as all the bits were made by the Austin company, with the exception of the replacement body.

Thank you for putting an email address on.

Location: Buxted

Austin Harris.

Austin,
I think the idea that "if you do not include an email address that you can be contacted on the post will be deleted" is good one. Would it not be possible to make it impossible to post until you use a pre-registered email address?
I trust the system would also include people known to the MANageMENT!!

Location: New Forest,Hants