Hi guys newbe to A7s
What type of gearbox oil is used in 1932 tourer, and how much?

You can do a search with 'Gearbox Oil' and you will you find this amongst others......

or to quote Tim

"I use SAE 40 oil here and SAE 30 in engine.
I fill so I can just see the oil level covering the shoulder in the gearbox through filler hole.
Level just about a first finger joint below outside top of filler hole.
Ah! How long is my first finger joint? "

I think that's around 1.5 pints of oil - Pitmans 'Book of the Austin 7'.
I thought it was less. Perhaps I have long fingers!!

E. & O. E.

Location: West Cornwall - A long way from Scotland

Hi Bill
welcome to A7 land.
Been here for 3 years myself (a relative newbie) and enjoying every minute of it. This forum is an excellent place to get quick answers to sometimes perplexing questions (at least to the newbie) and a great source of bits via the cherished suppliers (one of whom 'refused' to sell me something yesterday on the basis that I didn't need it and left me with perfect advice on how to put right what I already had).
Enjoy the summer, your weekends will now be full and definitely join your nearest club for more runs, fun and advice than you can shake a stick at.

Andy B

Whatever you do, don't overfill the gearbox or you'll have trouble going up hills due to the slipping clutch!

Location: Near Bicester

My 1929 Handbook advised SAE40 with a maximum 2/3 of a pint or neverless than 1 inch and no more than 2 1/2 inches, this when measured against the engine oil dipstick.

Location: Near Jtn 28 on M1 Motorway

Hi Bill - Last year Lance had the correct answer (click on Sandy's "this"). You use the same oil as in your engine unless g/box very rowdy, then a heavier grade. For correct oil look up Oils in "search" as detergent oils can do damage to your pure-bronze bushings in your box. Welcome and Good Luck. Cheers, Bill

Location: Mount Eliza, Melbourne, Australia

SAE40 seems wrong to me and I should add that I know nothing about running an Austin on the road but I have never thought of putting anything thinner than EP80 in either the box or diff. Am I misguided?

Location: West Cornwall - A long way from Scotland

OK I can go along with that one but why? I should have said inappropriate not thinner. I appreciate that the viscosity of a gear oil rated at 80 is about the same as a 40 motor oil but it is designed for gears, hence the EP.

EP by definition stands for extreme pressure and if I remember correctly it was designed for use with helical gears in particular.

The additives to make an EP oil are sulphur and phosphorous and I'm not sure they'll do the vintage metallurgy that makes up an Austin Seven box any good whatsoever.

Once agin, maybe I'm an old Luddite, but I use straight 30, without additives and in more years driving Austin Sevens than I care to remember I have never had a problem, so I'm happy to remain back in the old days, when it comes to old cars.

I'll get me coat...

Location: Near Bicester

Castor Oil? I thought I was a a traditionalist!

I use a straight 90 grade oil in the back axle, Castrol ST 90, I think it is.

The engine and gearbox gets Comma straight 30 summer and winter.

As the Austin seven was designed for oils with little or no additives, I use straight oils and change the oil quite regularly...even in the axle.

Location: Near Bicester

Hi where do I get Comma straight oil from?

Where abouts are you Bill? I'll give you the address of the local distributor...Comma is good value too!

Location: Near Bicester

Hi Thanks for help

I am in Stoke on Trent Or Newcastle U Lymme Staffs

Cargo AUto Accessories
7 BRADWELL LANE
NEWCASTLE-UNDER-LYME
ST5 8NX, UK

or

CES
REGISTERY STREET
STOKE ON TRENT
ST4 1JP, UK

Ah, what would we do without the web?

Location: Near Bicester

The Ausin handbooks state that a 140 grade oil is to be used in the back axle and the amount to use is 7/8 pints.
Now that is around 1/2 litre.
Using the old rhyme that "a litre of waters a pint and threequarters" and half of that is 7/8 pint, you get 2 refills from a ltr.

Location: Near Jtn 28 on M1 Motorway

Thanks for that Brian, I haven't had problems with the 90, but I will certainly try that, I have some Castrol D140 on the shelf.

Location: Near Bicester

I always beleived that the rear axle needed EP 140 GL4 spec for NON HYPOID axles. The other stuff is GL5spec for HYPOID AXLES. This is I beleive down to the greater SLiding action of the teeth when used in a hypoid arrangement i.e under or over the crownwheel centreline.

Steve

Many thanks for help

Just had a look at the oil bought recently and the label states; Non-EP treated gear oil meeting API GL1 and David Brown S1.53.101M (whatever that is).
This is identical to the oil I bought as a one gallon container about 8 years ago, not realising how long it would last.

Location: Near Jtn 28 on M1 Motorway

Whats the name of the oil please

If nearer & more convenient to you, contact Penrite Oils. They make oils especially for old cars which oils don't contain any additives to cause harm. And if you think that this is not necessary, why would they bother making & selling a lot of them? I thought this subject was resolved (at length) on a previous page. Please hit Sandy's "this" and read carefully before this page goes on forever. Cheers, Bill

Location: Mount Eliza, Melbourne, Australia

Bill, the label has "OILKEM, Axis SAE140 Gear oil and I get it from Acris Oils in Mansfield (UK that is).
I don't know anything else about the makers but have used Acris for a number of years now because they know their lubricants, are very helpful and they are not expensive.

Location: Near Jtn 28 on M1 Motorway

This is another topic I've sought to be put on the FAQ's page over the years, one day, just one day, it may happen, when I'm old and grey - ooops, sorry there already, but no FAQ (Fuddy and Quackers!!).

Location: West Cornwall - A long way from Scotland

Bill, you could also try 'morris' lubricants who make a range of SAE engine and non additive EP oils. I've found it cheaper buying through the local motor factors rather than direct, and should add I have no connection with the company, except as a customer. Pity it's called morris though...

Location: West Sussex

I don't understand why so many people seem averse to using EP80. It is specifically designed for point contact, spur gears included. As I understood it the additives are only harmful if used in the engine as they chemically combine to form acids with combustion byproducts. Unlike in a modern car where the gearbox and differential are part of the engine compartment, I have never experienced combustion in my gearbox and my backaxle is even further away from my sparkplugs. I've been using it for over 30 years and found no trace of corrosion. Have I been misguided again?

It might be useful if someone could spell out just which components in the back axle are supposed to be attacked by an EP oil. Is it the bushes that the half shafts run in? I have used EP 140 in the D axles of Box Saloons and a Big Seven for over 40 years and never seen any deterioration. I expect EP oils came out after the original oil spec was set by the Austin Co, hence their call for Shell Spirax, Jaba etc. Pitmans book on the A7 called for EP 140 throughout its years of publication and for its use in all models of A7. I would have thought that would have been amended in the second edition, if it was seriously wrong.

Ron

Location: Thornbury, South Glos

Just had another thought which has led me to my copy of "Running and Maintenance Instructions" for "Austin Light Cars" Publication 2230 I, by The Austin Motor Co Ltd, dated September 1950.
It refers to "Seven" ARR, ACA and "Big Seven" CRV, CRW, being the last of these models. In it Austins recommend EP140 for the back axle and steering box. Gearbox to use SAE 40 and engine taking SAE 30.
This may still leave it open to debate on the use of EP oils on the earlier models, but I feel confident that it certainly applies to all D type axles.
Can anyone see why, as Pitman suggests, it should not apply to all models? They all have the same design of gear so they would all benefit from an Extreme Pressure oil.

Ron

Location: Thornbury, South Glos

It would appear that the "EP" additives (Phosphorous and Sulphur) attack the copper content of phosphor bronze and Brass components.
I reproduce below an extract from Product Information for MORRIS'S Oils non EP gear oils.( I have seen similar info. put out by CASTROL)


GOLDEN FILM AG90, AG140, AG250
CLASSIC GEAR OILS
Description
Golden Film AG Gear Oils are a range of mineral oil based lubricants, formulated without
extreme pressure (EP) additives. These oils have good natural film strength, anti-foam
performance and long term stability.
Applications
Golden Film AG Gear Oils are suitable for use in equipment where the manufacturer
specifies a non-EP lubricant. Applications include: manual gearboxes (e.g. Eaton/Fuller,
Volvo), axles, worm gear drives (e.g. GKN), oil lubricated bearings, reduction gears/hubs,
chains, steering boxes, king pins, etc.
Additionally, Golden Film AG Gear Oils are safe for use in transmissions that contain
phosphor-bronze components. This makes them ideal for classic and vintage cars,
motorcycles, tractors, traction engines and commercial vehicles.

Ian.

Location: Shropshire

somewhere in my e-mail system I have an e-mail from a very helpful man at Morris, from when I bought my car 3 years ago, who explained to me why AG140 was right for back axle, and SAE 30 for engine, then take your choice over SAE30/40 for gearbox (I use 40 as its what the book says and I had bought a 5 litre can before I heard that 30 would be fine).
Andy B
Norf Essex

The early EP oils contained active sulphur. In extremely hot conditions this could cause problems with phosphor bronze. Modern additives in EP80 no longer contain this. EP80 is a GL4 gear oil for moderate pressure. There is a grade for higher pressures classed GL5 of which EPX80 is an example and this oil will only cause problems if the oil runs at 80-90C. If anyone has photographs of corrosion due to the use of EP80 the technical department at Castrol would love to see them as they have never seen it occur.
Why use a fork to eat soup when you can use a spoon?

This has been discussed to death many times as Bill Sheehan pointed out!!

BUT I will point out what I have said before.....

If you read any engineering text book it will explain to you the evolution of gear teeth. The bevel gear will be explained which is lubricated by straight oil. You will then be introduced to the spiral bevel gear which lo and behold we have in our cars. Due to the way the teeth make contact this is designed to be lubricated with an EP oil.
The only issue I can see is that in much more recent times the spiral bevel gear was modified to become the hypoid gear were the pinion centreline is above or below the crownwheel centerline. This required a higher spec oil to cope with the greater sliding action generated as a result. This is were the GL4 and GL5 specs come from I beleive.
I agree with Frank and can see no logical reason why we cannot use EP oils in our spiral bevels this is what they were designed to use after all!!
It would seem that using GL5 spec for the hypoid axles may not be so wise as it appears to be a different formulation that may be harmful.
Castrol D140 is an EP oil that many use and is to GL4 spec so whats the problem???

Steve

At the risk of boring you - how about some engineering discussion.
The Austin Seven, along with others introduced the spiral bevel crown wheel and pinion for quiet operation.
To quote Machinery's handbook-
"Spiral bevel gears have curved oblique teeth on which contact begins gradually and continues smoothly from end to end. They mesh with a rolling contact SIMILAR TO STRAIGHT BEVEL GEARS."

Thus they can be lubricated with non EP oils.

(the original lubrication recommendation was a mixture of engine oil and yellow grease - try that in your hypoid gears)

Introduced for the heavy sliding action of hypoid bevel gears in modern cars, the original EP gear oil additive was a very active sulpher phosphorous which attacked the bronze bushes of most early cars. The more recent oils are less agressive but why use them. A modern SAE 90 or if you prefer SAE 140 non EP gear oil will do nicely.

Regarding viscosity- my chart shows that the viscosity range of an SAE 90 gear oil is the same as an SAE 40 or 50 engine oil, so I use SAE 90 gear oIl in the gearbox.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia.

If we stop and think about the OP....

Location: Near Lands End....

Thanks Sandy, For your comments,I now think i can get a phD in Hydraulic engeneering or some such. ALL I asked was what type of oil goes in a Austin Seven gear box?
Thanks to everyone for their excellent opinions and and undoubted kowledge on the subject.

I use grease in my Ruby's steering box.
Is this a sin?

At the risk of being frowned upon for being 'technical' which is apparently not liked by some in this forum, I will reply to Sandy regarding viscosity.

You noted -
"My understanding of 30, 40, 80, 140 ... is this relates to the viscosity of the fluid,
thus 30 is not 40 or 80 etc. etc., and modern oils have a dual rating of say 15/40
because when it's cold it's equivalent to a 15 grade and when it's heated up
to working temperature it 'thickens up' to a 40 grade."

As you note the number does indicate the viscosity (pourability) of the oil, but engine oils are rated
separately from gear oils, so gear oils 90 and 140 do not continue on from 30, 40, and 50 engine oils. There is an overlap.
The multigrade engine oils contain a viscosity improver which allows the 'cold' viscosity to give a rating of a 15 oil and at the higher viscosity rating temperature the viscosity of a 40 oil. The oils still 'thins' with increasing temperature but not by as much as a monograde oil.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia.

Well I think the more technical the merrier, you are never too old to learn Tony!

Okay the thread has gone on a bit from the original post, but I think it's fascinating...but then it doesn't take much to keep me amused!

Location: Near Bicester

I can only give you the benefit of my experience Frank and that is I poured in some Wynns Formula One Gold (expensive stuff) and it transformed the steering, it was smoother, easier to turn and when you peer into the steering box it appears to stick to the worm.

I know it's not recommended, but it certainly did the trick!

Oops! I forgot to mention I already had D140 in the box, so I reckon it was mixed half and half.

Location: Near Bicester

Great thread guys

Lets enjoy it for what it is!
We have answered the original query so somebody is now happy, whilst the rest of us are having a lively discussion that tends to lead anywere it fancies...
That is just one of those things that always happens on any discussion forum and I think is a good thing AS LONG AS we try to answer the original query, which we have in this case.
There is of course the risk of repeating whats already been said, and I accept Bill Sheehan and Sandys points.

Back to the engineering, I have looked at Machinerys handbook and note Tonys comments, but I had some info somewere which aligned itself more with Franks points re backlash etc causing some slight sliding movement between the gears albeit not a lot. I also had somewere some info that recomended EP oils for spiral bevels due to the pressure involved. I cant seem to find any reference to it now so maybe its just a poor memory, or more likely I am just plain wrong!
I use Castrol D140 and will probably continue, but lets be honest it would seem that there is more than one way to skin the proverbial rabbit.

Steve

One question remains!

Can anybody name the phosphor bronze/brass bits in the rear axle likely to be attacked by an aggressive EP oil?

Location: Sussex Weald

Differential case bushes, BO 23 or BO129 or 1A 7152 (inner bearings for the half shafts)
Also bearing cages on original and older replacement bearings.

Frank,

You asked-

"Is the difference in gear/motor oil range due to them being graded by different bodies? The SAE for motoroils comes from the Society of Automotive Engineers whereas gear oils are rated by a body I cannot name but could be american."

Here I go again - upsetting the technophobes -

No - the viscosity grades for engine and gear oils are both SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) ratings. The engine and gear oils just have different range specifications.
The service designations for gear oils GL1 through to GL5 are set down by the API (American Petroleum Institute), who also set out engine oil service designations.
There are similar European bodies to these with equivalent specifications.
API GL5 requires extreme pressure additives for hypoid gear lubrication. API GL1,2, 3 and 4 do not.
The sulphur phosphorous extreme pressure additive requires metal to metal contact in heavily loaded hypoid gears to work.
The Austin 7 spiral bevel differential does not produce this action so an EP won't work (except to attack any bronze bushes etc).

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia.