Austin
No problem at all.Just wonder if it is one of the XA series? I know it is not XA 155.
Simon

Location: Comber, County Down

Hi Peter!!

Yes I remember it, there, but I think you are wrong about the engine. When I remember it, it had,I think, a BMC A series fitted, and it worked, because I remember driving it. (probably illegally)

Sorry about the confusion. I was looking at an ancient copy of the Ulster "Register".
126177 is an unblown 8 stud engine and is not installed in David Howes car.
Davids car has an un-numbered very late production 10 stud blown crankcase.
It does not have an XA number by the oil filler.

Location: Comber, County Down

I took this photo at Shelsley, and I do have copy of a write up that David did of the history of the engine as it passed between cars. It is a photo of the document that was placed with the car at Beauleiu or somewhere. The engine was in the LMW from 57-71. Martin Eyre bought AUY and LMW and put the engine in the chassis.
The story goes that Charles Goodacre identified the engine in 1972 by some additional holes he put in the crankcase.

As a caveat to all this I am no expert on the TT or much else for that matter. I have broken my own rule of never commenting on anything TT related.

Great news about the book Stuart, as soon as you know how much it will be let me know and I will get a cheque in post!

Location: Guildford

It's a car that was not entered by the works in the 1930 or 1931 season in competition. Pretty simple really.

It has a new body, an unnumbered engine and a questionable chassis. How from that can anyone conclude that it is a 1931 Works Car?

A bitsa at best.

Scott

Gentlemen
There will be no further comments from Ulster on this thread or the subject as it has developed.
Simon

Location: Comber, County Down

I am constantly amazed how both sides of this ongoing vexed argument state so their facts so categoricaly- if they were there during the 20's and 30's they must be going on 100 - and probably senile

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

In June 1936 Alf Depper purchased from the factory an Ulster Chassis No:-XE 1030, with Body No:-2031 and Engine No:-XE 25. [ Engine No:-XE 25 having replaced the unnumbered Engine which Bill Williams subsquently used in the LMW special ].
Engine No:-XE 25,was changed to an eight stud unblown Ulster Engine No:-126177.
In 1976 Wayne Styles from Melbourne Australia purchased the car.

Location: New Forest,Hants

In my post of Feb 20th, It should have read " Chassis No:-XE 1030,with Car No:-XE 2031,and Engine No:-XE 25." Not Body No:-2031, Sorry.

Location: New Forest,Hants

David Howe's car is Chassis No:-130185. a 1930/31 TT Chassis.
It is NOT Chassis No;-XE 1030. the 1935 chassised Ulster that Wayne Styles purchased in 1976.
It can be seen from Henry Harris's list that Chassis No;-130185. is Car No:-B3-3260. a Non supercharged chassis [Less Unit] sent to Mr Abrahams at the London Depot on the 4th November 1930.This chassis was probabely used on one of the 1931 Team Cars.
Chassis No;-XE 1030,comes after Chassis No:-XE 1026 a 1935 Grasshopper BOA 59 a Le Mans Car which is Car No:-XE 2027 add four and you arrive at Chassis No:-XE 1030 and Car No:-XE 2031.both 1935.
The answer to your question is NO,but I believe TWO different Cars!

Location: New Forest,Hants

Presumably we have 2 cars with the same registration number? or have I missed something.......

Will you all stop behaving like spoilt little girls and let us enjoy our Austin Sevens in peace
enough is enough have`nt we done this one to death in a previous posting lets move on, and enjoy the 90th anniversary

Glynn.

You are correct both cars have been registered with the same registration number AUY496.
The Orginal Car Chassis No:-XE 1030 was registered on the 30th June 1936 that Car was purchased by Wayne Styles in 1976 and exported to Australia.
On the 30th May 1984 DVLA records show that an application was made to re-issue the Registration number AUY496 to a Second Car which the DVLA records show as " Austin A30 Seven,Sports"
The Austin Seven Clubs Association Surviving Chassis Register shows the Second Car to have Chassis No:-130185 Engine No:-126177 and Car No:-2033. It is clear that the Engine No:126177 is incorrect as that engine, I understand remains with the Orginal Car Chassis No;XE 1030.The Second Car has NO Engine No.

Location: New Forest,Hants

Charles Onslow-Newton.

I think it is contended that although the Chassis is numbered 130185 [Thus retaining the 1931 provenance]it was subsquently issued with a new chassis identification plate,when it left the factory in 1936.
In "Story of a TT" Austin Seven Clubs Association Publication No:-2007B the first two lines explain the theory.It could also as easily have been 4th November 1931 the ledger says " 4.11 ".

Location: New Forest,Hants

David sorry:-Jon.

1942,views,may I suggest in the nicest possible way,DON'T OPEN,others believe the history of our cars is important especially in the 90th year.

Location: New Forest,Hants

Ian, we are, as the site says Friends,this post is openly dividedly points of view, lets just drop the title tatle. of who says what!!!!!!we can`nt relive 50 years ago, let`s please move on.....................

Jon - it's very easy to say let's all drop the subject and move on, but the next owner after Wayne Styles (John Hugh in Belgium) couldn't sell the Ulster because it's registration and history had been applied to another car, thus taking away not only it's value but it's provenance. Are you also willing to contact John Hugh and tell him to forget about it? I like most owners am interested in Austin Seven history but history has to be fact - it appears that history has been interfered with here and if so shouldn't be just swept under the floor carpets. Cheers, Bill in Oz

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Bill Sheehan.

Bill,
Thanks for your support and posting,I was begining to think I was on my own,and about to be censored by an anonym [by the name of no email JON].
Although I do sympathize with his sentiments,if he has no interest in actual History.
My posts are the recorded facts,NOT title tattle.

Location: New Forest,Hants

IAN, I am very much alive, and I do not hide behind anything or any body, I am know to the MANageMENT, and a lot of the other subscribers to this site

Charles Onslow-Newton.

Henry Harris's List shows:-

Chassis No:-130185 as a Non Supercharged Chassis.
Chassis No:-130186 as a Supercharged Chassis.
Chassis No:-130187 as a Supercharged Chassis.

As many will know Chassis No:-130187 is TT Ulster
Registration Number GW 82.

Location: New Forest,Hants

Jon - I'm sure you would have much more credence if you had the intestinal fortitude to identify yourself & from whence you come like almost everybody else does. For all we know you could even be the owner of the fake-history car attempting to put the matter to rest? Cheers, Bill in Oz

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Bill, I`m sorry you have taken this stance !
unlike yourself i`ve only been on the scene since the early 70s and have a 32`RN Box 33`Bill Williams Cambridge Special and a AAK 4str Open Tourer,
Hope these credentials are in order

The people that run this site have been talking about this thread and have come to a conclusion.

If you do not include an email address that you can be contacted on the post will be deleted. No options, if you can't stand by what you are writing in a public place then you probably shouldn't be saying it in public at all.

I do not want to delete the thread as there are good (and some bad) points raised.

As for the cars, you show me a car that has a continuous 80 year competition and development history that is 100% original. You can't because it's not possible, things break and get replaced. If you read reports from Brooklands at the time the cars broke all the time because it was so rough.

There are thoughts that the only bits that remained from race to race were the bodies, when you have a full production line at your disposal why risk re-using worn out bits? The TT bodies that do exist, the Canadian one and my dad's show huge amounts of cracking to the aluminium and have steel plates added to strengthen them.

Location: Buxted

If you want to see continuous racing histories I suggest you look at all of the ERA's to start with... Romulus (R2B) in particular.

The point being made here is that the car or cars in question cannot legitimately claim to be Actual Works TT Cars when they don't actually contain the constituent parts that were on a car entered by the works during the 1930/31 seasons.

Race entry forms required chassis no and engine no.

AUY 496 has an unnumbered engine therefore cannot have been entered in any International Race meeting by the Austin Works. To claim it is as being from a 1931 team car is incorrect as there is no evidence whatsoever to support those claims.

How can people be so sure that Charles Goodacre drove this car in specific events when nobody knows what the entered chassis number or details of his car was?

If this car was an Alfa Romeo or Bugatti it would have long ago been dismissed as a fake based on the actual facts (or lack of any evidence to support its owners claims). Why is this behaviour acceptable in the Austin Seven community?

So how many bits on Romulus haven't been replaced over the last 80 years? I would guess that a fair amount has been. It becomes Trigger's broom, 15 new heads and 12 new handles, it's still his broom though.

David's has always described his car as the development ulster, I haven't heard him saying that it was definitely entered in any races or describe it as a team car, whatever that means. I think it was entered into a couple of smaller events.

Goodacre himself identified the engine not the car, I believe it was nicknamed "blaster" or something similar.

There are plenty of dodgy Bugattis out there, the one that was pulled out of the lake has the same chassis number as one in Japan...

It can't be a fake as all the bits were made by the Austin company, with the exception of the replacement body.

Thank you for putting an email address on.

Location: Buxted

Austin Harris.

Austin,
I think the idea that "if you do not include an email address that you can be contacted on the post will be deleted" is good one. Would it not be possible to make it impossible to post until you use a pre-registered email address?
I trust the system would also include people known to the MANageMENT!!

Location: New Forest,Hants

I don't know the specific history of Romulus.

I hadn't seen that before about the history of AUY, if as you say all entrants had to give chassis and engine number for any race it should be fairly easy to find the documents, that would fairly quickly end a fair few arguments, (and open a few more cans of worms I think.)

We will probably have to agree to disagree about the definitions, I think you have to look at the car first not the claims.

Jenks' definitions are very good, I posted them here on another forum talking about a similar topic.

Location: Buxted

Austin, I've seen Mr Jenkins' definitions before but, I still think that they are unbeatable.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Austin Harris & Charles Onslow-Newton.

Surely from a Historical point of view, as you say

Quote:- "David has always described his car as the Development Ulster"

You are correct but that Quote should read "Cars"

Chassis No:-XE 1030 was sold to Wayne Styles in 1976 it was taxed, Mot'd and supplied with it's Green Logbook showing it had been first Registered
30-6-1936

Chassis No;-130185[ using Chassis No:-XE 1030 and Engine No:-XE 25] was first Registered 30-5-84 and was restored between 2001-2004.

Both Cars have the same Registration No:-AUY 496.
Both Cars purport to have the same History.

In the case of Chassis No:- XE 1030,this is set out in the Austin Seven Owners Club [London]The Journal of August 1975 Number 3.

In the case of Chassis No:-130185 this is set out
in the Austin Seven Clubs' Association publication
2007B.
I believe that the Car that was registered first is the Development Ulster, without it's Works Development Engine and that engine is now in Chassis
No:-130185 or 130186

Location: New Forest,Hants

Ian,Austin,
Happy to oblige Jon

Surely Remus (R5B) would have been a better choice of ERA? Romulus sat immobile for many years until Bill Morris took him in hand.
Remus has a much more active history.
Sorry for the thread drift, but it has drifted from the Bill Williams car anyway!

Location: Richmond, Texas

Hi When I brought my ulster it had a brass plaque on the dash saying it had run in the Brooklands 500 !!! It was the first thing to come off the car when I got home. (it is still on the shed wall).
Andrew

Location: Sunny Herefordshire

C harles O nslow N ewton

- - -

????????????????????????????????

Location: under a rainbow

Ian,

David Howe previously said that the number on the chassis he claimed was 130186 could not be seen, how could he be sure that it was in fact this chassis?

Have you seen a chassis with 130185 or 186 stamped on it?

Chales Onslow-Newton,

Chassis No:-130185 is quoted from the Austin Seven Surviving chassis Register.[My copy is May 2005 edtion
I have just checked the Austin Seven Clubs Association web site and the entry has not changed and that is dated as issued 1st September 2009.The club reference is 19.which is Pre-War A7 Club.
In your post of 25th Feb @ 10.52PM you suggested that Chassis No:- 130186 had been claimed. I don't know where this comes from.

Location: New Forest,Hants

ben marchant

C harles O nslow N ewton

- - -

????????????????????????????????

Location: Hove

Ian Moore - Thankyou again.

On this forum David Howe posted on June 10, 2009 at 10.55am the following:

"In 1970 I bought a kit of UNRELATED mostly Ulster parts which included chassis no 130186 and the reg document for AUY 496....A friend expressed an interest in the chassis which was out of true so I used another when rebuilding the car. The no on this chassis was obscured. "

So where has this chassis gone???

Location: under a rainbow

In an attempt to stay awake for the next enthralling episode,I am now about to set fire to my trousers.

Location: near Bristol

Location: under a rainbow

Ben Marchant

Ben,
I don't agree with anyone NOT identifying themselves when they post,I also understand your opinion.

However there has been some useful Historical information posted.Both cars are Important.

From a Historical point of view which ever Chassis No:-130185 or 130186 the 1931 TT is it can not be Chassis No:-XE 1030 which is 1935/6, and that car was exported to Australia in 1976.

Location: New Forest,Hants

Ian Moore - And Wayne Styles still has the documentation to prove it. On another tack, I'm pleased the MANageMent has finally disallowed anonymous contributions. When I challenged someone recently to reveal himself all he did was supply a list of the Sevens he allegedly owns, but wasn't willing to let us know WHO he was. Not a very honest reply, in my humble opinion. Please keep up the great historical work I know you've put into Sevens, as thanks to forums such as Friends we seem to learn more and Moore every week!! Cheers, Bill in Oz

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Ian Moore

Agree entirely with what you are saying re XE 1030.

However there is a question over 130185 & 130186 as they appear to have been erased in order for someone to claim XE1030 in the UK from 1984 onwards. Where are those frames now?

Was it Martin Eyre who obtained the re registration of AUY496 in 1984?? What information could he have used to claim this car if the original log book and frame etc went to Australia??

Bill, I have identified myself, by way of listing my email address,if that is not suffisiant, for you I will email you directly............
Jon