It would appear that if the discussions do not meet with the approval of certain people that threads are then locked.

There was nothing libellous contained in the Williams Special thread.

People were not forced to read it or take part.

Interesting facts were being discussed and revealed which affect 2 cars

Yet the apparatchik's decide to lock it.

Charlie me old mate !!!
You really want to go down these lines ? RED CARD
you have 2 more lives
We are all trying to enjoy the cars not pick fights

Fear not, apparatchiks are able to set their trousers on fire as well!

I take no stance within this thread, lacking both the knowledge and the interest to participate but, I have followed the thread with interest.
However, maybe we should all remember that this is an open public forum and threads containing thinly veiled suggestions of chicanery within the movement do nothing for our cause.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Location: West of Watford, through the gap

Well said Ian I for one are with you, the previous linked video clip was totally unnecesary in my opinion.

Location: Shropshire

I think the video clip sends a very clear message about showing off for an audience
That was probably the point !

I will take this thread down in 24hrs as I do not believe this contributes in any way to what we want to achieve. I am sorry to say there appears to be a particularly uncomfortable feel to this forum of late.

the thing about Britain is you can say what you want, you may be talking alot of old crap or,even making sense. You do not have to read, or listen to what is being said and usually those who take offence are those who inwardly know that they are guilty or in the wrong.

I want to know all about Austins and when I realise that there is some alternative agenda I do not bother to read any more. We are here for a short time, we do not need alot of unnecessary hassle, but as for blocking items, I do not agree

Location: Northwest Hampshire ,

AustingartLR2

I'm with you.

We have laws in this country to protect people who are victims of slander.

The rest of us form our own opinion of the "facts" presented and the people providing them.

Please allow the discussions to take place, at least, as long as the people posting are identifiable.

All the best

Stuart.

Location: Teignmouth

I do not have the expertise to contribute to these discussions but read them with interest. We all know that there are cars of dubious pedigree out there and, uncomfortable or not, I am all for them being exposed before a non-expert such as myself is unfairly parted from their hard-earned.

It thus follows that I am 100% in favour of those with verifiable information being free to publish it on this forum. If those who dispute their evidence can produce better sources to discredit it so be it. In the end we should all be better informed.

I therefore ask the Moderators not to block such threads. By all means delete posts that attempt to unjustifiably discredit with unsupported opinion, or simply dislike the truth because it 'isn't nice', but please do not stifle the revelation of sound evidence whether favourable or opposed to accepted 'fact'.

Cheers, Derek. (real name, real location!!)

Location: E. Lancs., UK.

It may be reasonable to say this forum has been set up to enable persons of like mind to share their knowledge and experiences. A common thread that binds like minded people together throughout the world. Most of the comments one will agree with, and some one may not. However, the power of the not interested button is quite powerful in your hands, simplistically if you are not interested in a posting go to the next.

From a personal point, if the material is not offensive or hurtful either through language or the expression then there is probability some amongst us may enjoy the offering. I guess it is no different than being in the pub sharing conversations with a group, some of the discussions are ok others one can do with out, the corner stone of democracy.

If ignored generally it will go away as there is no fuel being added to the fire, but who knows some may find this of interest, in this case the person who was burnt burnt has won the Darwin award!.

In conclusion I offer this thought from Voltaire,
(around 1700 and something)

“I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.”

Now I will go and fill the sandbags and wait for the incoming with a cup of coffee.

Sincere regards,

Doug Baker

Location: Scarborough Western Australia

At the risk of adding to the confusion- even with my limited knowledge, it seems to me that this topic has been very well aired to no good conclusion over quite a long time.
Neither your very strange UK Motor Registration people or others seem to have been at all interested in resolving the dilemma and I don't think another merry-go-round here will assist.
Many 'facts' have been quoted but seemingly to no avail so perhaps we should let it rest. When the cars come up for sale again possible something might happen but don't hold your breath.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

If someone is going to generally insult, mock or lambast another participant I can understand the locking of a thread.

I do not however see why some people are so incredulous to accept evidence and accounts being presented and then questioned.

When someone presents evidence that stands up against anything I have said and cannot be questioned then I have no problem with it. However it seems that when facts are queried the other way there is a different stance.

History is a factual subject and cannot / should not be allowed to be altered. All the evidence (or lack of) for these cars is publicly available, some people just don't want to interpret other than for their own benefits.

Doug, at the risk of turning this thread in the same direction as the Williams Special thread.
Quoting Wiki re. your quotation:

"These were not his (Voltaire's)words, but rather those of Evelyn Beatrice Hall, written under the pseudonym S. G. Tallentyre in her 1906 biographical book The Friends of Voltaire. Hall intended to summarize in her own words Voltaire's attitude towards Claude Adrien Helvétius and his controversial book De l'esprit, but her first-person expression was mistaken for an actual quotation from Voltaire."

Dave

..... and thus, sometimes, the A7CA Registrar has a rocky path to follow, whatever car is being referenced....

There are everyday Chummies out there that cause just as many, if not more problems following cloning etc.,

Tony Press mentions our DVLA, Swansea, in the UK - My views and experiences with them in the past have been well aired, especially their lack of accountability - 'Somebody' help us if they close the local offices.

Location: Lands End - UK

Although there is not sufficient expertise available at the DVLA to identify fakes, I can't help thinking that closing the local DVLA offices could open the whole system to further abuse.

I refrained from commenting on "the" thread, as I could see where it was leading, however, I have great fun wandering around the pits of various events identifying fakes that in recent years have mysteriously built a somewhat dubious "history" and in my experience, it's the poor old Rileys have suffered most in recent years.

I have no problem with people building replicas...the problem arises when they pass them off as the real thing and that is damaging to everyone, in particular the old car movement and we need all the help we can get at the moment.

But despite all that, these threads do make for some exciting reading!

Location: Near Bicester

I had just logged on a with a robust view to deleting this thread however some comments’ are worthy on here. When a thread becomes close to the end of its life as the one mentioned was then a decision will be made to move on even if some cant.
It is a general forum, it is not controlled by logins although I can see why other forums are.
We are prepared for it to be used by aliases (at the moment)
But you have one thing to remember please - if we set house rules just like a referee you may not like the decision but accept it.
It may be the huge amount of hits that cause passions to run so high and the success of the forum is terrific – I see at the moment that it needs to be closely monitored to keep it that way.

Charles O-N

You wrote-

"History is a factual subject and cannot / should not be allowed to be altered."

I once thought that 'History' was a factual subject- but as I approach (rather too rapidly) three quarters of a century I see that history is always subject to interpretation.
Where available we will use written evidence - but who wrote it cannot be questioned and mistakes can be made- seems unlikely but there you are and each reader applies their possibly distorted view.
Of the seeming plethora of evidence available which is right?

Enough pontificating (another problem I have with getting old - bit like arthritus )

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

O.M.G?

2 years discussion

I think I might agree????????????/

Time heals..

I still don't like shiny real old cars

B

I remember ..

U need to get a Hobby

Location: under a rainbow

Charles.O-N.

Actually,History is written by the victors,who usually have the loudest voice.

Location: near Bristol

But perhaps the most important thing that has come out of all this discussion - we now know that Voltaire didn't voice those famous words. Thanks for that. Cheers, Bill

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Ben,

You mean like this - is your chummy showing inverted knobbery?



I notice your racing cars seem very well finished- or is this different?

Not sure of the connection with the subject but hey.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

By the way- this is a matching numbers car- the numbers match those I wrote down when I got it

Interesting - I recently was given the original registration papers for it - strangely dated January 12th 1933 for a 1928 car - but wait - this formal registration didn't start untill 1933. Even stranger- if this was an early registration why was the original registration number 148756 ??

Re registered in 1942 to DN473.

The original colour was buff and maroon, changed to grey and black in 1953.

The only ID is the Engine Number 69139 (a magneto motor which I still have although a 1928 coil motor is now fitted to the car)

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

TonyPress

By the way- this is a matching numbers car- the numbers match those I wrote down when I got it .....

Location: Lands End - UK

This raises an interesting point about A7's.

I recently saw a 7 for sale claiming to have matching numbers! To me, from latter day BMC cars, that would meen chassis number mathing engine number etc?

My understanding was that numbers never did match on A7's as the engine production was ahead of chassis production? With a steadily widening gap as time went on, due to scrap engines and presuably engines removed from the line as replacements?

Is this correct or have I missed something?

Stuart.

Location: Devon

My grandchildren complain about history saying that there is more of it for them to learn than at the time when I was at school.

Location: Colchester - Autumn Leaves Home for the Bewildered

Location: Shropshire

I think you are right Stuart, the only reason I can see for "matching numbers" would be if those on the chassis and the motor match those on the original buff log book

Location: Near Bicester

hi ivor,

i beleive you are right matching numbers are as they left the factory chassis and engine.

i dont see how that matters though.

i stood one of the stalls many years ago at longbridge,and an elderly gent who had to talk through a voice box came up for a chat.
and told me how he used to deliver the 7s from longbridge.
he recond if they got past the front gate without brakeing the crank,they would easily get to the end of the country.
i take it if the crank broke before the gate,the engine was simply swapped and the car delivered.

begs the question wich engine is then its original!!

Location: Comber, County Down

Simon,

"Remarkably I do have a matching numbers car. Chassis number, car number, both in the ledger and a recognised engine number from a limited series of works XA engines."

I am not sure what matching numbers means but the suggestion that the engine and chassis matches those listed in the original registration documents seems reasonable.

The fact that the chassis and car number are listed and the series of engines is limited is very interesting and likely gives the car a value but not sure if that is 'matching numbers'.

Maybe some cars have engine, chassis, gearbox and body numbers the same, but as noted that doesn't apply to the Austin Seven.

My car is largely unchanged from the original specification in the registration papers which pleases me - but matching numbers - cannot say!

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

Simon or C..O..N..

Show us some pictures and we can all go"YIPEE"

and move on.

U know who U R.

2 years have past since u owned this car and you still will not go public???

But u will.. ***** about all The other TTTTTTTTT'S


Wain Carr

Location: under a rainbow

Ben,

I know that feelings are running high, and I for one would be very keen to learn the truth about the history of these cars. BUT! come on lets not get this thread locked as well.

Simon, how about Bens challenge let us see some facts and pictures, I am sure the genuine enthusiasts will be fascinated and it will silence the doubters.

Cheers

Location: NZ

On early Sevens you can tell if they are matching numbers as all three numbers (chassis, engine and body) are stamped inside the rear crossmember on the nearside. The numbers are prefixed C E and B to avoid confusion.

Location: Stretham, Ely, The fens.

Has anyone seen a set of old letter/number punches for sale lately ???

Location: New Forest

Lance and Merv,

Now here is an opportunity - latest edition of The Automobile has a private? advert for

"Early Austin 7 Pram Hood Chummy? on beaded edge, Must be original with 'matching numbers'...."

Out with those punches and Robert's your relative!

Still waiting for a memorable security letter combination, can't make anything from HXV8

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

This same March edition has an article on the Ballot- and here I think we have the correct meaning of matching numbers. Many of the engine parts are stamped with the same number as is the chassis. No mention of the gearbox though.

Vain hope with our Austin Seven

Although the crank sometimes matches - if it hasn't broken

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

Quite right Tony. My 1925 chummy still has it's original engine and the number is stamped on the crankshaft, flywheel and the last three digits are even stamped on the flywheel key. The last four digits of the engine number are also stamped on the gearbox top face where the starter motor fits.

Location: Stretham, Ely, The fens.

Lance,

Has it got the engine and chassis number stamped on the chassis?

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

Tony,
Yes it has and the body number. All three are on the inside of the rear crossmember on the nearside and on the offside of the same crossmember you can still see the chassis number stencilled in white paint.

Location: Stretham, Ely, The fens.

Lance,

Lovely- I would say that must be what we could safely call a matching number Austin 7
Not many around, I would think.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne.

The following photos rae from the 1924 AB Tourer I sold last year (to fund an extension, boooo...):

Rear chassis cross member (Chassis 36(5?)71? Engine 3603 Body number obscured):



Rear axle, I was told that the rear axle casing, if original to the car, is a good indication of when the car left the factory, it was fitted towards the end of assembly, anyone able to back this up??:



Block and crankcase:





Gearbox and lid - not sure these ever bore any resemblance to the car/engine/chassis number, happy to proven wrong:



Steering box:



Top of front axle beam was stamped, no photos sorry, chassis number I think. Rods, crank, flywheel all stamped with engine number, no photos sorry, pistons at +020, but undertsnd that original ones would have also had engine number.

Tony,

Yes, thank you. The car had been standing for a very long time when I first bought it and I think it had not done much work. When I rebuilt the engine I found that the bores were standard size with very little lip. It drives very nicely, but if I break the crank then it won't be "matching numbers"!

Location: Stretham, Ely, The fens.

Hi Ruairidh,

Yes the back axle on my car is stamped -/10/25. Interestingly, on the inside of the scuttle above the petrol tank is an OK and initials written in chalk or wax crayon, some kind of inspection mark?

Location: Stretham, Ely, The fens.

Location: Melton Mowbray

Hi Chris,
Many years ago I bought a spare engine for my Box saloon from a bloke in the next village. He assured me that it had been proffesionally overhauled many years before but had not been used. I removed the head and sump to give it the once over and inside the sump written with a finger of red hermatite was F**CK OFF. Maybe the mechanic was having a bad day.

Location: Stretham, Ely, The fens.

Location: Lands End - UK

During the most interesting discussion about various early Austin Sevens it was stated -

"History is a factual subject and cannot / should not be allowed to be altered."

My late wife's forte was genealogy - family history, which relies on written records which must be cross checked wherever possible- for instance a recent note from the Registrar of Births Deaths and Marriages gave the following advice.
'A grave headstone gave the persons age at death as 54 years. The BDM record record showed 75 years and 40 years married, information given by the eldest son of the person. Further investigation indicated the person was married for 36 years and age at marriage was 35 making him around 71 at death.'

Sorry to be long winded but I think it is important to be very careful when stating categorically a 'known historical fact from written records'

Now I know this doesn't apply to Austin 7's so I will away home

Tony

Location: Melbourne.

Tony,

Agree with your point as errors can creep in.

With historic racing cars I should think that multiple race reports, entry forms and correspondence from the period (Photographs can of course be used in conjunction with written evidence) should be given a little more credence than someone who for example bought a pile of bits and has no evidence of what he started with, never mind the history they are claiming for the pile of bits!

Scott

Location: Cookham Dean