Do not be too put off by the above - the points being made and the problems to solve are valid but not insurmountable. The first car I set about extracting serious performance from was a Series 1 Morris 8 Sports - with balanced Series E / Minor crank and gearbox. Strong engine (stronger than a 7, probably because it is a single casting rather than a cast iron block stuck on a floppy crankcase).

Dimensionally similar to a sidevalve Ford 8 /10 engine - an engine the VSCC refuses to let in because they know it equals availability and power at very low cost and will lead to rewriting many of their records and a complete change to the look and feel of their grids (don't even start on XPAG or Ford V8s)- lots of information on cams, valves, timing and tuning which will translate directly across. Easy to build one that will safely run to over 6000rpm without any special or expensive one off parts.

It will be lots of work to install in sound and effective manner - but much bigger engines have gone in. Perhaps you could save some length with an A7 gearbox?

Location: Sussex

The reason why Renaud is thinking of the Series 'E' engine is because he already has one, with the gearbox. His A7 rolling chassis is without engine & box so he would have to spend a fair bit in order to source and re-build a good engine etc. The Morris 8 lump is OK and free. His intention is to fit it with a rootes supercharger so I doubt if the weight difference will amount to a great deal at the end of the day.

The car will be a "special" of course, and there is no intention for it to be anything other than that.

Location: Also in France but darn sarf.

My first car was a Morris 8 followed by a 1948 Low Light Morris Minor, both of which had fundementally the same engine.
All I can say is that in those guises neither could pull the skin off a rice pudding !
It may possibly be better in a lightweight special but it is something I would not contemplate.

Well a standard Morris 8 'E' engine develops 28bhp, which is considerably more than a "cooking" Austin Seven lump. Even an unblown Ulster only gives 24bhp and a blown one 33bhp...

I can see Renaud's reasoning.

Location: Also in France but darn sarf.

And in the Hamblin Cadett thread you will find a link to the soloution of fitting a ford engine. The morris will be similar i guess.

Anyone used a Singer Junior engine with its overhead cam?

Renaud,
In "The Automobile" magazine of January 2008 there is an article entitled "Barbara's White Minor" This lady was Barbara Skinner,a hill-climb and sprint driver from the 1930's. The car was a 30's Morris Minor chassis with a highly tuned and supercharged 847cc special Morris Minor sidevalve engine. I don't know if the Series E engine is the same.The car was being renovated in 2008 and was to be fitted with a supercharged replica engine using a Minor sidevalve unit albeit using standard components.
I could e-mail the article to you if it would be of any use.
Cheers,
Dave

Location: "Lovely" Sheffield

At least that one has an Austin engine!
Renaud

Location: Brittany

As one who got their driving license in a Morris 8/40, I perhaps should know the details better, but I would have thought that a series E engine was quite different to that in Barbara Skinner's car of the early 30s. I believe she used the overhead cam (845cc?) engine as used in the MG M series sports cars. Corrections welcomed. Cheers, Bill

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Bill,
Carl Skinner,Barbara's dad "built a second side valve Morris special.....this time for his daughter to drive" it says in the "Automobile" article.
Cheers,
Dave

Location: "Lovely" Sheffield

Bill,

My memory is that the White Minor was fitted with the 'new' side valve Morris engine which replaced the first Minor OHC unit, from all accounts very similar to the Ford 8 engine.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

The early 1930's side valve 847cc Morris Minor engine which replaced the earlier 847cc OHC design, is entirely different to the later 918cc Morris Eight Series I / II and E side valve engines which were in production from very late 1934 until 1948. With only slight modification, these engines enjoyed continued use in the Issigonis designed 1948 Series MM Morris Minor through until early 1953 when the Austin OHV A series unit was installed.

It's the 918cc Morris Eight engine which many say is an almost identical copy of Ford's 933cc 8hp unit, first used in their Model Y Eight.

As Bill has mentioned, in Australia, the Morris Eight was known as the 8/40

Jeff.

Looking at my Pitmans I see that the original side valve was quite different, a two bearing crank shaft with roller bearing rear and plain bearing front with whitemetal big end bearings.

From my memory of my fathers Morris 8/40 tourer the engine had all shell bearings.

The distributor moved from up front to centre of the cylinder head on the new engine.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Tony,

Your fathers 8/40 tourer obviously had a 1939 onward Eight Series E engine fitted or the innards of one, if it had shells all round. The slightly earlier though more or less identical Eight Series I/II engine (late '34 to '38) had thick wall shell mains and whitemetal big ends. The Series E had thin wall shell mains and big ends and a counterbalanced crank shaft whereas the Series I / II didn't - both are three bearing though and are interchangeable as are the con rods - I fitted an E crank and rods into my Series I/II tourer block.

Jeff.

Jeff,

From 55 years ago I can't remember the details - maybe only the mains were shell. I think it had pressed wheels not spoked.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Tony,

The 1938 Series II models, saloon, two seater and tourer had pressed steel wheels, the Series I cars all had wires. The Series E tourer (I don't think it was designated an 8/40 in Australia, was it?) also had pressed steel wheels, though of a slightly different design. Have a look at my two Pinterest Boards for the Eight Series I and Series II tourers.

Jeff.

Although specials are outside my comfort zone (in more ways than one), I do however know the series E engine - and the idea of fitting a heavy lump like that to an Austin 7 frame, seems rather strange to me. It may well produce more power than a properly sorted A7 unit; but has anyone calculated the power to weight ratio or considered any of the handling or braking characteristics? I fear this project is doomed from the start but if it is to go ahead, I would like to be notified before it hits the roads - so I can stay safely indoors!

Best of luck.

Ray.

Location: Derby

Sorry gentlemen I was out of computer world since I started this thread.
Ray don't worry it's not likely I'll frighten you in Derby soon with the frogect!
When I started it I did'nt realize that A7 engines were indeed so expensive, my mistake. And, as Reckless summarized very well above, my M8 engine is free. Tony I DO have the complete car but it is not fit for a special for his lack of chassis. Furthermore I like the A7 chassis and suspension scheme very much.
An M8 engine is certainly heavier, then probably much less fragile than the A7. Then I like the 3 bearings thin shells and the 29 hp.
Jeff & Bill, I was certainly aware of some of your remarks and I'll try to remember those I was not.
Thanks to Mike & Reckless for their encouragements.
Renaud

Location: Under a lot of wind

A 2 seater special with Morris engine will weigh a lot less than a Chummy with 4 people in it.

S

Location: On a hill in Wiltshire

[quote="Slack Alice" Simon]A 2 seater special with Morris engine will weigh a lot less than a Chummy with 4 people in it.
S[/quote]
I'll try to keep it under 350 kg/800 lb.
How much is a Chummy? (alone!)
Renaud

Location: Brittany

Renaud,
8 1/2 cwt,952 lbs,431kg I think.
Dave.

Location: "Lovely" Sheffield

Thanks Dave.
So if I manage to lighten that somewhat I'll be fine, even with 29 hp. If I supercharge that I'll probably be around 35?
Wow!
Renaud

Location: Brittany

I just weighted a spare M8 engine I have (without moving parts, crankshaft, rods, pistons), it's just 110 lb.
Not so much?
Renaud

Location: Brittany

I think I would ask myself why the engine is free and if it did need a rebuild would I be able to get the parts as easily as I could for a 7,and would they be cheaper.

Location: "Greater "Bristol

Renaud,

From the forum files, a complete 3 bearing Austin Seven engine (crankshaft, rods and pistons included)with gearbox fitted but less dynamo and starter motor weighs 80kg (176 lbs)

I would think the complete Morris motor with all internals plus gearbox would weigh quite a lot more

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

At one stage renaud said the Morris engine would work out cheaper than an Austin Seven one, yet he's unaware of the cost of possibly re-building his "free" acquisition. Now he's talking of possibly fitting a supercharger - does he have any idea of the cost of that? Does he really understand the problems in fitting a larger, longer, heavier engine & g'box? And is he totally ignoring the suggested problem of stopping the car? Are we sure this whole saga isn't a hoax? I'd suggest further items be ignored (those with helpful info on Morris can contact him direct) - after all, I thought this was supposed to be an Austin Seven website. Cheers, Bill

Location: Mount Eliza, (not a mountain but hilly, overlooking the Bay) Australia

Bill,
It won't be the first time an Austin 7 chassis and running gear has been fitted with a non-Austin engine. I had a friend with a Ford 8 or 10 engine fitted in a Nippy. It's good to see people using their ingenuity and it might work out well.I was looking at Practical Classics magazine a few weeks ago where someone had fitted a small modern diesel engine in a prewar Austin 10. It was used on a daily basis.Not nice from an originality viewpoint but practical and economical and very cleverly executed.
Regards,
Dave.

Location: "Lovely" Sheffield

But not near as much fun as a real Austin Seven engine - a charm all of its own!!!

Which wore off a bit yesterday when we found all the big end bolts loose to give bearing clearence on a supposedly professionally restored engine

Unfortunately the previous owner has gone overseas so I can't go and have a big whinge! But as they always say - it was a second hand car so let the buyer beware. You shouldn't believe anything you are told.

Tony

Location: Melbourne, Australia

There was a multitude of Ford 8 and Ten engined A7s years ago. Arthur Mallock's "Bombsk" was a well-known 1172 car, I helped a friend build a 100E-powered Hamblin Cadet, the Dave Rees car had a Ford engine for a while, so did the Arden if I remember correctly (before it had a Climax), and there were many Trial cars so built.
They didn't all have strengthened frames either (though the Arden was a notable exception).
So I'd have thought the Morris engine would make a pretty decent special, given brakes etc. to match.

Location: Richmond, Texas

But lets face it- none of them are an Austin Seven, are they.

In Australia there a few track cars here with Renault or Hilman Imp engines - they are not seen as an Austin Seven.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Location: Brittany

Location: Brittany

renaud

Nothing personal but my own view is that a post headed 'Morris Eight Series E engine' is not quite the proper thing for the Austin Seven Forum.
Rightly or wrongly I assume this site is generally directed to the Austin Seven, although I understand some A7 owners have other cars, they usualy don't discuss them here.

There is an Austin Seven Specials website which might be more appropriate.

http://www.a7special.co.uk/

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Come on guys!

Austin sevens have been being modified and different engines fitted since not long after they were introduced! If a special has an A7 chassis, suspension, wheels etc surely it is still within the remit of this site? The wisdom of spending the time and money to build a special with a M8 engine is down to the builder, not for anyone else to decide.

No one makes you read or reply to messages here, so if a thread doesnt interest you, dont look at it, Simple!

Rant over. Ducking now.......

Stuart.

Location: Devon

i@m with you Stuart .

Merv

Location: New Forest

Hmmm...
I thought I could introduce the M8 engine here. After all there's a lot of threads about using from a Reliant to a V-twin Honda motorcycle engine for the wonderful single seater built by Odgie.
But I'll avoid mentioning here my "wrong" engine from now on.
Then I'll surely keep asking about A7 particulars when needed too!
No bad feelings from my part & I hope this is a decent compromise!
Renaud

Location: Windy and sunny Brittany

It appears that Renaud's idea of using a M8 engine in his Austin Seven based special has touched a nerve or two, but personally it should be a matter of personal choice and not bound by the constraints of originality - after all, how many "original" A7s are there which are ABSOLUTELY pure and untouched?

Therefore I pose the question: When does an Austin Seven cease to be an original car and become modified, a special, or a replica or just a 'bitsa'???

Renaud makes no bones about his car being an Austin seven based special.At lmeast he is endeavouring to put another Austin Seven chassis back on the road - better than it just languishing in someone's garage gathering dust, surely?

My RP saloon is missing its smokers hatch & it has a Bosch distributor - does that make it a 'special'? neither does it have its original front axle nor the engine crankcase, nor the upholstery, nor the wiper motor etc etc... Just because someone chooses to use a different engine (and why not) should the person be castigated and cast out just for being different? ...

I thought this site was called austin seven FRIENDS. Let's keep it that way.

Location: 30960 in The Gard, south of France. 30°C, pool 27°C. Oh dear, how sad, never mind!

I don't understand! Everybody praises Rob Beck's efforts with his glorious and ingenious Special with the 1925/6 motorcycle type engine shown on here a month ago but not the same for Renaud's idea for an A7 special with Morris 8 engine. Confused (as usual!)
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

I have just finished off the fitting / fettling of a Morris 8 SU carb to my Dads Opal! The car now runs and goes much better than it did with the side draft carb.

To add to what I and others have said about the Frogette project. At least its a period engine, not a Reliant OHV as I have seen a couple of times recently in specials.

Stuart

Location: Devon

I blame Herbert for this. After all he was the one who decided that others could buy Austin chassis & fit "special" bodies to them. This is just an extension on his original idea. All the best with your project Renaud.(At least your not using a F**d)

Location: sunny no wet no sunny no oh I give up south Somerset

Thanks to everybody for the encouragements!
Renaud

Location: Windy and sunny Brittany

R,
Those side-daft SU's are much better than the up-silly Zeniths. Sorree....!

Location: Sheffield

Some mistakes are intentional Dave... sorree!

I have warped humour/genes, what can I say!

Is Sheffield no longer lovely??

I suppose that by Bill's definition in another post, renaud's car would be a 'hot rod'
I am keen on the original Austin Seven (preferably pre 1930), but don't think that the fitting of a side sucker SU (both cars) or Bosh distributor (one car) or even fitting Hardy Spicer joints in place of fabric makes it a 'rod', just a slightly better road use car.
I am not into racing so I must admit to knowing nothing about 'proper' engine/chassis modification.
I do enjoy running a car fairly close to original 30's design, but that is just me, sorry.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

R,
Sheffield is even lovelier in summer. It's the time of year when the potholes in the roads are filled with the prettiest of summer weeds.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield Even Lovelier (when summer arrives)

Be thankful that you can see the weeds!! I can remember days in the late 40s - early 50s when you would struggle to see across the street in Sheffield when the steelworks were all going full blast.

Cheers, Derek.

Location: E. Lancs., UK.

Derek - was that in the 1840s and 1850s during the Industrial Revolution? Cheers, Bill

Location: Mount Eliza, (not a mountain but hilly, overlooking the Bay) Australia

No Bill, definitely 1940s/50s! If the wind was in the right(?) direction the delicate aroma of sulphur was detectable in Worksop. It was a little later that most of the steelworks closed and the few remaining had to find ways to comply with the Clean Air Act.

Cheers, Derek.

Location: E. Lancs., UK.