This might be a silly question but how exactly do the twin front shocks help with the behaviour of the front suspension? I know they do and I've ordered one from the UK but until it arrives I just can't picture how it works without having it in front of me.

It seems that with the standard shock the axle can pivot about the single shock bolt and the axle can rock up and down. With the twin shocks this is eliminated I guess?

Just can't get my head around the mechanics of it. Might have to make a Lego model to get it straight!

Simon

Location: Avondale

Interesting question Simon. Thinking about it, the original single pivotted shocks allow quite a bit of side to side movement on the spring as it's mounted on twin shackles. The double shocks also don't stop the side to side movement but presumably double the shock absorbing so perhaps they half the side to side movement? The originals are very much improved by not allowing the discs to get too worn and thin. I change my front ones more often than the back with new and then use the more worn front ones on the back using a second spring (early mini clutch spring inside the Austin one)which allows more adjustment.
Cheers
Steve

Location: south west of Bath

Are they intended to be fitted without the links to remove the sideways axle float?

Our Ulsteroid and the Ruby both have one end of the front shocker arm fixed with a rubber bush dirrectly to the axle. It does make a huge difference to the wandering around over undulations. It does not stop the snap oversteer caused by potholes mid corner though!

Stuart

Location: Teignmouth

I ordered mine from the Ulster Boys site and asked Tim how I set them up. He said they are fitted with the usual aluminium shackles and not fitted direct to the axle. He says they do eliminate the lateral movement. I'll check with him. I am sure once I can see it in front of me, wheels off the ground so I can push and pull things it will all become clear.

Location: Avondale

I don't know but assume they are supposed to be fitted in the conventional way with both links in. I have, in the past, used one side solid mounted which, in effect, creates a panhard rod effect with the deflection on the spring being to one side only which is more predictable. As I said in my last post, just replacing the front discs with new full thickness ones when required is all I now do. If the car is all over the place with a rebuilt shock absorber (with new discs in place) there is something wrong elsewhere, and solid mounting one side is disguising this. I prefer the standard set up so I know if something is not correct elsewhere.
Steve

Location: south west of Bath

There seem to be several variants of double shock, so, assuming you're talking about the type that fits in place of the standard shock and still uses the links..
The two big differences are that the damper arms are shorter giving more damper rotation for the same axle movement, and that separating the dampers gives a lot more damping in roll (if you remove the links on a standard damper and push one arm down the other will move up). For my own mental imagery I like to think of the standard system having 2 conventional dampers mounted close to each other in the centre of the axle, and the twin arrangement having them mounted towards the outer ends of the axle. I wouldn't like to comment on the accuracy of my image, or the value of those differences.
Andy

Location: Oxfordshire

This is the one I ordered: http://www.theulsterboys.com/components.html

There are different ones about as well. There are racing versions too but unless I am missing something (highly likely) it seemed that you paid more for some extra holes with those!

Location: Auckland

Simon,

"Just can't get my head around the mechanics of it. Might have to make a Lego model to get it straight!"

Meccano model please !!!!!!

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Yes, sorry! I see old Meccano online and am tempted to buy some but then the thought of having to clean and restore all the little bits and pieces puts me off. I have an old A7 to do all that with!

Location: Auckland

Simon,

I always think of my Austins 'big Meccano'

Still,for mechanical reconstructions Meccano is the best And you can buy it brand new - made in France since Binns Road closed.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

I fitted French Meccano gears on the backs of tacho and speedo to get the correct ratios,using Ford 10 speedos for my pretend Ulster. They have been working with no problems for the last 19 years.

Location: Sheffield

I think Andy Cooke answered your question. By fitting shorter arms with their ends as close to the wheel as possible you increase the amount of rotation at the disc increasing the damping. (They are not shock absorbers, it is a misnomer, the springs absorb the shock and what you call the "shock absorber" dampens the spring.) For racing we lock them up completely, in effect locking the spring in that position. The flex in the sidewalls and the chassis twist creating the springing. The only time the spring is used being if you go over a kerb. I can't give any advice for the road.

hi simon,you have started out your thread as if you know nothing.

so dont start talking out of your **** about the different types of double springs and prices for a few extra holes.

yes mine are the type with the extra holes and yes the difference in price is for the difference in quality.

i take it you have ordered an £85 set from the ulster boys,(cheap and cheerful yes).but talk to them about there quality version, they still make those at £135. that price is the same as my own.

you should get out of your french palace now and again and come to the shows and actualy see the difference of parts for there price to quality.

ive refused so far to drop my quality,as i refuse to fit cheap c**p to my own cars.and would like to think others apreciate the extra effort.

but its a***h***s like you and your cheap comments to go with your cheap cars that make me wonder if i should join the cheap and nasty parts brigade.

if those parts you have bought brake you will be the first to complain they should have been made better.

were as realy you only have yourself to blame.

(like the new con rods !!!!!!).

Hello Tony, thank you for your wonderfully crafted and obviously carefully considered reply. Especially the comments on my character.

I asked a question about HOW these shocks worked initially then made a comment on the differences in prices and made an obviously (well, I thought so) lighthearted comment on how 'race' parts are often drilled to lighten them so indeed you are paying extra for holes. In fact I practically begged someone to explain to me why the race versions are better in the comment by stating I had probably missed something.

My mistake is assuming people are capable of reading such things and understanding them in the context in which they are written. Interestingly you can often tell those who don't through their replies, usually full of expletives and personal attacks.

Here is how I would expect a polite and reasonable person to respond in this situation. If indeed there are differences in quality I would be more than happy to have these explained to me so I can make my own informed decision. Perhaps something along the lines of 'Well, you could buy that one but let me tell you about our product and why it is better...'.

Now, you see what you've done is say, well shout really, 'Mine is better, it's more expensive, all you people are big meanies for not buying from me, waa, waa, waa'.

And then you called me names.

It is a most interesting way of doing business.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt (hey, maybe it was a 12 year old who logged into your account who wrote that reply) I looked on your site to see what shocks you provide. I found a price and a picture for a 'Stainless steel sports front damper' for 125 pounds. There is a picture, it's nice, but not any description. Is stainless steel faster? Or maybe it IS the holes that make it better? I am guessing you provide only the best quality holes. I see you threw a few free ones into your reply. Thanks.

Unfortunately, given the way you responded, I don't think I will be doing any business with you in future. In fact I would probably go as far as saying in, my opinion, Tony Betts of 7 County Austins is someone you might want to avoid based on his handling of potential customers.

The shock I bought might not be the best one out there. I won't know till I receive it and even then I won't be able to compare it to anything else for a while. I must say though Tim at the UlsterBoys site was a pleasure to deal with. He asked how I will be using the car the shock is to go on and he happily answered my questions about their product politely and thoughtfully. Based on that, the price and the cost of postage to me here I believe I made a sensible purchase. In fact I have bought other parts from UK suppliers and have always had great service and support from them.

As to your ravings about my approach to quality and lifestyle, well, you're allowed to spout whatever you like. I think those that know me and have seen what I am doing will know I like to do things things well and do them properly. I would love to come to the shows to examine parts myself but unfortunately the commute is a little far for me.

Perhaps instead you might explain why you think your product would have been the better choice for me?

I actually need to spend a considerable amount more on my car in the coming months. None of it will be coming your way.

And if the parts I receive do break (note that spelling there, it's not 'brake' - I would have thought someone in the car part selling business would know that) I am sure it would be sorted out in a thoughtful and polite manner. Given my dealings with UlsterBoys up to this point I have no concerns there at all.

Given your attitude displayed here I would wonder how you would handle returns?

Simon

Location: Auckland, New Zealand (in a French palace apparently?!)

Simon Jansen you are a gentleman, your reply is excellent. Very disappointed with Toni Betts outburst. How dare he use this forum to abuse people in such a manner? Toni if you have issues with Simon call him or email directly, what you have done is really below the belt, I leave it at that, people will judge you on your action. All the past good deeds have been wiped with a single action, pity.

Location: Hove

simon wilst painting yourself as a saint.

your comment i quoted was not asking if there was a difference between the dampers on offer.

it implies that you are paying more for the holes.(cop out)(unless i`m missing something)

were you have gone wrong is my dampers are the only ones with sporty looking holes,so yes i do take it personaly that i am being accussed of charging for nothing.
were as my customers will know i have tried to give them good quality items for over 20 years.
even producing items like cylinder heads and new brake drums that they cant get elsewere.thats how dedicated i have been to parts supply

tim at skyrocket is indeed a very nice person and i have delt with him in the past.and if you are happy with his product fine.but dont try to imply i`m charging my customers for something they are not getting.

so if you want to pick at the parts i make,trust me i will defend them in any manor i feel fit.right or wrong.

and as you cant see the difference in quality to price on offer,i will be more than happy to know you will not be useing me in the future.

Above is how your reply should had been answered below is not acceptable in this forum specially the last para

of your **** about the different types of double springs and prices for a few extra holes.

i refuse to fit cheap c**p to my own cars.and would like to think others apreciate the extra effort.

but its a***h***s like you and your cheap comments to go with your cheap cars that make me wonder if i should join the cheap and nasty parts brigade.

Location: Hove

thankyou E Lowe,for your attempts with the wooden spoon.or as many beleive you to be ADLI.

you have put a smile back onto my face

some of us traders can take more than others before we explode.

thats the thing with a public forum. flipant questions can offend.as do angry answers.

see you at beaulieu unless you are on another exotic holiday for that weekend.

Tony you are completely mistaken but if you and others believe I am Adli that is fine with me. I wish I had his cars.

Location: Hove

Wow what a row going on here in public. The Ulsterboys product is an ample econoimc solution for an Austin Seven and the quality is mechanicaly fine for the application which one must remind one self that it does hang underneath a car and get plasterd in whatever the environment can chuck at it. A stainless product of this design is a solution but in my opinion questionable due to the nature of the material.


For the record i have built many types of race cars/ sports cars and i am a racecar fabricator/constructor/designer and oh yeah the Ulsterboys are mates of mine so maybe a tad biased

Location: Bicester ,Oxfordshire

hi jo,
as i sed the ulster boys or as i now them skyrocket are great people no arguement there.

the reson for useing stainless was because the first use for these dampers was trialing mudpluggers.so when you get home you just jet wash the car off.so why not use a material that doesn`t rust.
thing is its a more expensive material,harder to bend,more expensive to weld.
i wont go on with the rest of the extras that add to costs.
but i dont charge for holes,and dont like the implication from somebody that has never used my product.
so yes it was taken personaly

hi all
just want to clear up a couple of things
the shock absorbers (dampers) refered to as being more money for more holes were, i believe, the racing version manufactured bu tim and myself (sky rocket) and not the ones produced by tony.
how they work ?
in my opinion its not so much about damping the roadwheel movement but more about stopping body roll which upsets what directional control you have.
if you mount a standard one in a vice and push down on one side the other goes up.(opposte to a modern anti-roll bar) obviously on the road the wheel would not lift but the body would roll.
this is what, in my opinion, seems to cause the sideways movement of the spring.
the twin damper helps keep the body more upright as the 2 arms are not connected. locking one side to the axle may help more but i designed this to look as much like an 'austin' part as i could
i await comment ?

I can see that the double version helps to reduce roll, by the fact each arm has an independent friction action, but does it help to reduce the action of the 'swinging' axle. As far as I can see (without one arm fixed to the axle) we still have the same rubber friction shackles twixt axle and Shock arms and spring end.

I haven't tried the double Shocks, though I can see their plus side. To reduce axle side swing I have rubber inserts between the axle and front spring ends, held in place by the shackle (and a cable tie).

Having rolled an RP coming out of a roundabout in 1968 - tight RH bend around R/B then tight LH to side road - I'm well aware of body roll, front axle swing, the rear quarter elliptic springs giving added steering as you 'roll' and of course with the single 'Shock' on the front giving no real restraint to the front half elliptic spring movement either...

Location: Near Lands End - UK

I can see that the double version helps to reduce roll, by the fact each arm has an independent friction action, but does it help to reduce the action of the 'swinging' axle. As far as I can see (without one arm fixed to the axle) we still have the same rubber friction shackles twixt axle and Shock arms and spring end.

I haven't tried the double Shocks, though I can see their plus side. To reduce axle side swing I have rubber inserts between the axle and front spring ends, held in place by the shackle (and a cable tie), and what a difference that makes to steering control... I would agree the King Pins must be under greater stress, but they haven't broken yet after a lot of mileage over many, many years (and pot holes).

Having rolled an RP coming out of a roundabout in 1968 - tight RH bend around R/B then tight LH to side road - I'm well aware of body roll, front axle swing, the rear quarter elliptic springs giving added steering as you 'roll' and of course with the single 'Shock' on the front giving no real restraint to body roll, plus the front half elliptic spring movement ...

The 'Sports' versions of A7's have flattened rear springs I believe, much less chance of 'Rear Axle Steer' on a roll.

Location: Near Lands End - UK

hi ian,
i take it it was you with tim at warick,

i`ll email latter when i have better time.

hi sandy,
good to see someone trying to work out for them selves how this system works.
i`ve not tried to expain it so far myself,to see if anyone else knows pro or am.
and it keeps my spelling mistakes down

there are 3 main systems on the market.

the straight replacement will give you benefits,but they are very small.
the damper rotation for you techno people.you can messure the original arm centres to the new arm centres it comes to around 2% rotation at max.
there is a small gain on improvement of damper by removeing the old see saw effect.and replace with two independants.this also reduces the same see saw on the axle
the side ways movement i beleive is reduced more as most people replace the rubbers at the same time as the damper system,this is were this advantage comes from.

if you want to remove side ways movement i feel it is better to do what austin did and extend the damper arms out to the radius arms.as in system 2
this system also works a little like longer brake arms.
this way you can put more pressure on the friction discs so the longer arms will move without locking up.

if you want damper rotation,then talk to alex at pigsty.i`m sure tim wont mind me saying its not the preitiest system.but the idea of pisty was things should work before looking preity.this is system no 3 it extends to the radius arms BUT with short damper arms.therefore you get more movement at the kingpin than the original fitting possision.and with a short arm i would expext at least 12% rotation.

Location: in a shed that keeps 7s on the road

Those with access to the Dorset Club's August 2012 Magazine will find a nice article by Terry Griffin on this set-up on pages 12 - 13, originally printed in the Midland A7 Club's magazine (no date given).

Location: Taking the edge off the weather for the rest of you!!!!!!

I say '...on this set-up...'

Perhaps I should have said '.. on a similar set-up..',
but the principle etc., is similar.
(Thus avoiding any particular makers name of the unit's).

Hello Simon,

Your question, to answer it properly is a real challenge as it would take several pages of explanation boring the tripe out of most.

The short answer is dry friction.

However there are four primary laws involved.

Newton’s laws
Hooks law
Coulombs law
The physics of pivots

Basically the shock absorber has a dry friction plate whose action can be easily demonstrated by placing the palm of your hand flat on a table, without removing it try to rotate it. The more you push downward the harder it becomes until you reach a point where it will not move.

The shock absorber works the very same way and by using two dampeners one has doubled the friction. The frictional load in a dampener as a guess would probably be tens but most likely hundreds of Lbs per square inch (in Christian measurements)

I am prepared to offer a more detailed explanation but I can assure you it will not be riveting reading.

Regards,

Doug Baker

Location: Scarborough Western Australia

Exactly

Doug,

No mention of Amontons Law which I suspect plays a part?

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

I didn't mention it because I lock them up solid but if you want the dampers to dampen that is another matter. I don't think Alan wants them to do much either.
What do you do on the rear????? You can't lock those up racing.

Frank,

Not sure what it would do but I suppose you could replace the spring with a tube on the rear.

For road use I always let the discs 'dampen' the spring bounce, although with static and dynamic friction being what they are this is only vaguely useful, rather like the brakes.
But it is a vintage car with all the excitement that entails.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Hi Tony,

Crickey you have now opened up the laws of gas physics. What are you replacing the front spring and damper with or are talking about the tyre pressure?

I still recon force = mass X acceleration is the critical equation. (Newton’s second law)

Then the third law speaks for it's self

Now one can compound the whole guffins with Hooks law equated to the spring with the laws of harmonics thrown in for good measure.

Your turn Tony,

Regards,

Doug Baker

Location: Scarborough Western Australia

Your cat has just left the bag my friend

Steve

Location: Nr. Selby, North Yorkshire

No, I meant to write STIFF

I'm surprised as I spend a lot of effort getting the back end as soft as possible, and I mean soft, especially for Cadwell where there are three left hand bends where you can get inside wheelspin on the exit.

Interesting. We are both trying to solve the same problem, differently.

As I see it, the basic problem is that the load transfer on cornering unloads the nearside wheel, so it spins. What is needed is some anti-roll capability on the rear end. Really stiff dampers will provide that, but are less than ideal in other directions, I admit.
I imagine your way, with a really stiff front end, and a stiffish chassis to go with it might just work. I'll slacken the things off next time out and see.

You racing guys are talking about things outside my experience but it's all interesting so don't stop!

My double shock arrived from Tim at the Ulster Boys and I wanted to say, despite some comments here, it seems a nice piece of kit. Very well made, solid, nicely painted black and it looks very much Austin style. I am very pleased with it. When I get to the point of putting the new front end on (a little way off) I'll see how it behaves compared to the original and hopefully see how they work.

Simon

Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Alan, I'm not claiming any originality, I read good explanations by Fred Puhn in How to tune your chassis and get 100bhp, and a fascinating description by Carroll Smith titled The peculiar case of the large sedan. I am sure it works for me at Cadwell because my lap times dropped. The in phrase at the moment appears to be "aggregation of small increments" and this is one of them. Let's see what the Originality Fundamentalists make of this one?

Alan,

Stiff rear dampers- that is why I suggested using a tube in place of the rear damper spring, but Frank's application of softer rear dampers/springs seems to work for him.

I will stop discussing this, knowing nothing about racing Austins being one of those who only follow Herberts line.

Tony

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Frank

Interesting that you have got a similar set up to that one we used on a front wheel drive race car, but obviously at opposite ends of the car.

We had the back set up with almost no roll allowed, a very stiff AR bar and drop check straps, so it picked up a rear wheel in corners and transfered the weight to the front inside wheel. We also ran the front much softer than most people to gain traction and ran a standard anti roll bar at the front. It worked, my car held the Castle Combe 1400 saloon lap record on and off for 5 years! On occasions I was even driving it!! lol

When we were finaly allowed a limited slip diff the whole dynamic changed, we had to stiffen the front and soften the back, we also went a second a lap quicker. we had progressive springing then at the front with very soft helper springs, for traction, which coil bound under any load....all got complicated!

On a 7 I guess the problem is that if you over do the stiff front and stiff chassis you start to introduce a lot of understeer? Having never raced a 7 its hard to envisage what the handling would be like.

Ok bored everyone enough now!

Stuart.

Location: Teignmouth