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One of the delights of this Forum is the way we digress from the original subject, learning something new at the same time. However, there is a downside. Any new-comer (and many old-comers for that matter) would have difficulty gaining knowledge of a subject when it's referred to under something else entirely. So for those looking for info on the above subjects, try looking under "Cup in a Box" and "Crankcase".
To continue our tangential discussion on Steering boxes: Tony - I would suggest you eliminate the 39 degrees bit, as it was only from someone's memory. I haven't tried to work it out, but as that is only slightly lower than a standard rake, you may find it wouldn't fit under an Ulster instrument board (from radshell to dash = approx 37", whereas a Chummy is only approx 31" and they're both the same height from the floor). Re your question about the method of altering the angle, the answer would probably only come from comparing the various boxes side by side. However I'd suggest they were all new castings as opposed to altering the base. The consideration is lining up of the two mounting holes (top of the rail) with the larger hole (in side of the rail). One would think altering the angle wouldn't make a difference, but it does. For example - when altering standard boxes to Ulster angle, rather than cutting off the whole base & starting again, I welded a thin wedge onto the underneath of the base at the front, then cut off the surplus required under the rear to suit the angle. The top of this rear flange was then built up to duplicate the original thickness, also to give it solid attachment to the rounded rear part of the box itself. All done this way to retain the original holes in box lining up perfectly with the original holes in chassis rail. To perhaps prove my conjecture that the original boxes were different, I then found it was impossible to slip a bolt down through the rear mounting hole, because the rounded part of the box itself was in the way. (The answer to that was to drill and tap the rear hole, mounting the rear bolt from below). The original 9C36 (Ulster box) of course had plenty of room, as does a standard box, to slip the rear bolt in from the top. Hope this helps others, particularly Special builders, in future. Cheers, Bill
Location: Mount Eliza, Melbourne, Australia
Good thinking Bill, as with the dynamo discussion. Hopefully of interest to some.
Steering box angles discussed so far-
1A 6041 41 degrees
1A 6042 36 1/2 degrees
9C36 37 1/2 degrees
Still to get part numbers for -
33 1/2 degrees
35 degrees and maybe 36 degrees, although these are very close to 36.5 so possibly not.
The 1923 'Coach Builders' drawing shown in the Source Book page 50, shows minimum height wheel rim to chassis as-
Standard 20 3/8"
Sports 16 15/16"
Special Rake 15"
Obviously this would have changed over the later years.
Your comment about fitting the rear bolt would indicate that each box was a different casting.
Bl**dy computer has lost my avatar.
Tony.
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Good thinking gentlemen!
I wonder if we can raid the collective knowledge bank for different steering column lengths to go with the steering box information?
I has become apparent that the Grassything column needs to be longer than a Ruby column. By how much I am yet to establish exactly. I am using the late Ruby steering box as it can be mounted at pretty much whatever angle you require.
All the best
Stuart.
Location: Devon
I had a reproduction raked box on my Cup model and never had much success with getting the worm and gear to mesh properly. Despite careful setting up it would start off horribly and then gradually become slack over 100 miles until there was so much play that it wouldn't stay in a straight line.
My father has converted a standard box by cutting the base off and rewelding it at a slightly different angle using a wooden jig. Hopefully that will be more successful!
I no longer intend to fix the box I have as Barry Clarke has now given me the correct type.
I am extremely grateful for this extraordinarily generous gesture.
I believe, I believe...
Stuart (and perhaps others) -
Steering Columns measured over many years :
1923 (Box XL296) = 22" to brass collar, approx 23 1/4" to top of box.
1925 = ditto " 23" "
1927 Top Hat = ditto " 23" "
1928 Splined = 24 1/4" " " " 25 1/2" "
1932 " = ditto " ditto
Ruby (both alum & steel box) = " 24" "
1933 Type 65 = 32 1/2" to collar - no access to box in situ
1935 Nippy = from memory shorter?
From July 1934 Speedy = 2 1/2" shorter for Ashby wheel - perhaps same
as 1927, or maybe 24" as for Ruby?
Big 7 = 28" to top of cast iron box
Note : lengths will vary dependent upon how far brass cover screwed into
box
Note : All standard Sevens have approx same wheel diameter, those checked
varied from 12 3/4" to 13 1/8" dependent upon covering thickness etc
Note : Some Sports fitted with Bluemel wheels (larger diam) so height of
floor to bottom of wheel may vary from factory drawings.
Note: For anyone shipping a Ruby-type tourer or Opal, with windscreen
removed, top of steering wheel rim to ground = 47".
Hope this helps. Cheers, Bill
Location: Mount Eliza, Australia
Location: Nr. Selby, North Yorkshire
Hi Tom,
I've got two spare s/h steering boxes and one casting of the aluminium case/mounting which has never been built up - must be NOS I guess?
The end float of the column is controlled by how far the column is screwed in. The meshing with the wheel is controlled by the three(?) nuts securing the steel plate on the side of the box. I guess if there is a lot of end float then you would get the illusion of a poor mesh at the wheel.
Or, and this would be more of a concern if you bought a new casting, the thread the column screws into might not be straight - if it is presenting the column at an angle, that might explain the problem, and could probably be found out if you still have it.
I'm not a TIG welder and would be a little concerned about having a go myself given the vital job of this particular component!
Tom,
"I have never used a wedge, but I don't think they are for the purist! I think you have to fiddle with the brake pivot which sounds like a bit of a pain."
Can't be too bad- my first chassis was built with a solid wedge which I made and fitted under the standard box. From memory the brake pivot was put into the original box hole and into the wedge. This raised the pedal somewhat but still useable.
Must have done something clever with all the bolts but I think the box assembly is still on the Meteor which is being rebuilt 50 years later in country Victoria. I am looking forward to seeing it - from what I hear still fitted with its twin Zenith updraughts
Tony.
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Hi Bill
Thank you very much for the comprehensive list of column lengths!
The difference between Ruby and type 65 of 8" sounds about right. Im going to have to extend a Ruby column, so its going to be a case of getting the dash panel in the right place to start with then working it out to the last 1/2" from there.
Thanks
Stuart.
Location: Devon
Stuart - Further re columns. I may have not given you the very one you most require. Will follow up the Dreaded Insect one and let you know. Cheers, Bill
Location: Mount Eliza, Australia
Stuart - the Unmentionable is 28 1/2" to top of box. Cheers, Bill
Many thanks Bill & Tony.
Going back to the earlier discussions on Steering Box angles, A7CA 2013D shows from Austin factory records -
XL 253 No angle but probably 49 1/2 degrees
XL 896....49 1/2 degrees
1A 6025...49 degrees
1A 6041...41 degrees
1A 6042...37 1/2 degrees
1A 6068...(possibly 37 1/2?) 'for Fabric Saloon and other short scuttle models'
The card also notes 'See later card for Cast Steel types'.
In earlier discussions we had added-
9C36......37 1/2 degrees
Tony.
Location: Malvern, Melbourne.
Tony,
Do you know if there is any difference between the two 37 1/2 degree boxes, (1A 6042 and 9C36) apart from the part number ?
Some years ago I purchased a 37 1/2 degree reproduction steering box casting from Colvin Gunn (sadly no longer with us I believe) does anyone know if anyone else is producing reproduction 37 1/2 boxes ?
Thanks
Marcus
Location: Auckland
Marcus
I recently bought a new box for my GE Cup project from James Gunn. The 1A 6041 box fouled the dashboard so James kindly swapped for an "ulster" type with no casting number that works a treat.
I'll measure the angle tomorrow if I get the chance.
James' number is 01279 876 773.
All the best
Peter
Location: United Kingdom
Thanks Peter,
That would be great if you could measure the angle for me.
I presume that James is Colvin's son, do you happen to have an email address for him ?
Cheers
Marcus
Location: Auckland
Ruairidh,
Excellent pics.
The 9C102 appears to be less than 37.5 degrees?
Can I ask you a favour whilst the 9C102 is out of the car? Could you confirm how many turns of the steering wheel to 1 turn of the drop arm?
Henry,
"this" box is at 35°
I'll get back to you with the turns info.
6 complete turns Henry.
Thanks for that info. From memory the standard box is about 6 1/4 turns. I think it confirms that the internals are as the standard type.
There has been recent talk in the 750 Bulletin of the Ulster (or some of them) having a special slower steering ratio which would require either special worm and gear or longer steering arm, or even a shorter drop arm although I think that would be highly unlikely.
Location: Gloucestershire
Are you being sarcastic or can you see the photos?
I only see photobucket adverts!
Bruce
Location: New Zealand, Whangarei