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STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

One of the delights of this Forum is the way we digress from the original subject, learning something new at the same time. However, there is a downside. Any new-comer (and many old-comers for that matter) would have difficulty gaining knowledge of a subject when it's referred to under something else entirely. So for those looking for info on the above subjects, try looking under "Cup in a Box" and "Crankcase".
To continue our tangential discussion on Steering boxes: Tony - I would suggest you eliminate the 39 degrees bit, as it was only from someone's memory. I haven't tried to work it out, but as that is only slightly lower than a standard rake, you may find it wouldn't fit under an Ulster instrument board (from radshell to dash = approx 37", whereas a Chummy is only approx 31" and they're both the same height from the floor). Re your question about the method of altering the angle, the answer would probably only come from comparing the various boxes side by side. However I'd suggest they were all new castings as opposed to altering the base. The consideration is lining up of the two mounting holes (top of the rail) with the larger hole (in side of the rail). One would think altering the angle wouldn't make a difference, but it does. For example - when altering standard boxes to Ulster angle, rather than cutting off the whole base & starting again, I welded a thin wedge onto the underneath of the base at the front, then cut off the surplus required under the rear to suit the angle. The top of this rear flange was then built up to duplicate the original thickness, also to give it solid attachment to the rounded rear part of the box itself. All done this way to retain the original holes in box lining up perfectly with the original holes in chassis rail. To perhaps prove my conjecture that the original boxes were different, I then found it was impossible to slip a bolt down through the rear mounting hole, because the rounded part of the box itself was in the way. (The answer to that was to drill and tap the rear hole, mounting the rear bolt from below). The original 9C36 (Ulster box) of course had plenty of room, as does a standard box, to slip the rear bolt in from the top. Hope this helps others, particularly Special builders, in future. Cheers, Bill

Location: Mount Eliza, Melbourne, Australia

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Good thinking Bill, as with the dynamo discussion. Hopefully of interest to some.

Steering box angles discussed so far-

1A 6041 41 degrees

1A 6042 36 1/2 degrees

9C36 37 1/2 degrees

Still to get part numbers for -

33 1/2 degrees

35 degrees and maybe 36 degrees, although these are very close to 36.5 so possibly not.

The 1923 'Coach Builders' drawing shown in the Source Book page 50, shows minimum height wheel rim to chassis as-

Standard 20 3/8"

Sports 16 15/16"

Special Rake 15"


Obviously this would have changed over the later years.

Your comment about fitting the rear bolt would indicate that each box was a different casting.

Bl**dy computer has lost my avatar.

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Good thinking gentlemen!

I wonder if we can raid the collective knowledge bank for different steering column lengths to go with the steering box information?

I has become apparent that the Grassything column needs to be longer than a Ruby column. By how much I am yet to establish exactly. I am using the late Ruby steering box as it can be mounted at pretty much whatever angle you require.

All the best

Stuart.

Location: Devon

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

I had a reproduction raked box on my Cup model and never had much success with getting the worm and gear to mesh properly. Despite careful setting up it would start off horribly and then gradually become slack over 100 miles until there was so much play that it wouldn't stay in a straight line.
My father has converted a standard box by cutting the base off and rewelding it at a slightly different angle using a wooden jig. Hopefully that will be more successful!

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

I no longer intend to fix the box I have as Barry Clarke has now given me the correct type.

I am extremely grateful for this extraordinarily generous gesture.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

There is a Santa Claus

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

I believe, I believe...

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Tom Coates
I had a reproduction raked box on my Cup model and never had much success with getting the worm and gear to mesh properly. Despite careful setting up it would start off horribly and then gradually become slack over 100 miles until there was so much play that it wouldn't stay in a straight line.


Hi Tom,

I'm currently saving my shekels for a new sports steering box casing, but now I'm worried it might not be the best option! If the gears on your box were meshed "horribly" (tightly?) then I wonder how they could become unmeshed other than through something not being done up properly? Did you do the laborious lapping job? I did that to my Ruby box last summer and I have to say I am pleased by the result. It took three long sessions with the grinding paste to get it right!

The other option for me is the dreaded wedge, but one hears nasty stories about them...

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Stuart (and perhaps others) -
Steering Columns measured over many years :
1923 (Box XL296) = 22" to brass collar, approx 23 1/4" to top of box.
1925 = ditto " 23" "
1927 Top Hat = ditto " 23" "
1928 Splined = 24 1/4" " " " 25 1/2" "
1932 " = ditto " ditto
Ruby (both alum & steel box) = " 24" "
1933 Type 65 = 32 1/2" to collar - no access to box in situ
1935 Nippy = from memory shorter?
From July 1934 Speedy = 2 1/2" shorter for Ashby wheel - perhaps same
as 1927, or maybe 24" as for Ruby?
Big 7 = 28" to top of cast iron box

Note : lengths will vary dependent upon how far brass cover screwed into
box
Note : All standard Sevens have approx same wheel diameter, those checked
varied from 12 3/4" to 13 1/8" dependent upon covering thickness etc
Note : Some Sports fitted with Bluemel wheels (larger diam) so height of
floor to bottom of wheel may vary from factory drawings.
Note: For anyone shipping a Ruby-type tourer or Opal, with windscreen
removed, top of steering wheel rim to ground = 47".

Hope this helps. Cheers, Bill

Location: Mount Eliza, Australia

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Urgent Austin
Tom Coates
I had a reproduction raked box on my Cup model and never had much success with getting the worm and gear to mesh properly. Despite careful setting up it would start off horribly and then gradually become slack over 100 miles until there was so much play that it wouldn't stay in a straight line.


Hi Tom,

I'm currently saving my shekels for a new sports steering box casing, but now I'm worried it might not be the best option! If the gears on your box were meshed "horribly" (tightly?) then I wonder how they could become unmeshed other than through something not being done up properly? Did you do the laborious lapping job? I did that to my Ruby box last summer and I have to say I am pleased by the result. It took three long sessions with the grinding paste to get it right!

The other option for me is the dreaded wedge, but one hears nasty stories about them...


I bought a repro Ulster steering box a few months ago. It built up quite well with only a minimum of (to be expected) fettling. Car not on the road yet but I've no reason to believe it won't work as it should.

Steve

Location: Nr. Selby, North Yorkshire

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Steve Jones
Urgent Austin
Tom Coates
I had a reproduction raked box on my Cup model and never had much success with getting the worm and gear to mesh properly. Despite careful setting up it would start off horribly and then gradually become slack over 100 miles until there was so much play that it wouldn't stay in a straight line.


Hi Tom,

I'm currently saving my shekels for a new sports steering box casing, but now I'm worried it might not be the best option! If the gears on your box were meshed "horribly" (tightly?) then I wonder how they could become unmeshed other than through something not being done up properly? Did you do the laborious lapping job? I did that to my Ruby box last summer and I have to say I am pleased by the result. It took three long sessions with the grinding paste to get it right!

The other option for me is the dreaded wedge, but one hears nasty stories about them...


I bought a repro Ulster steering box a few months ago. It built up quite well with only a minimum of (to be expected) fettling. Car not on the road yet but I've no reason to believe it won't work as it should.

Steve


I think that the main problem was that the thread in the top of the box where the column screws in was very oversize. Although the column locks up tight once the pinch bolt is done up, the thread serves to locate the column (and therefore the worm) relative to the wheel (I'm not sure if that's the right terminology)and it is crucial that this alignment is spot on.

We tried everything including running it up in the lathe with grinding paste, but the worm didn't seem to mesh with the wheel at the right angle, and as a result the steering was horribly stiff and quickly wore to being very loose. I suppose that steering boxes are particularly sensitive to poor alignement. I should specify that it wasn't one of David Cochrane's boxes - from what I have seen, his stuff is very good.

I think I would be tempted to convert an original box if I was doing it again - not only is it cheaper, but you are keeping the same set of componants that have been wearing together since they left the factory.

Dad did the mod for me and managed to cut off the base and fettle it up ready for welding in no time at all. If you cut carefully you can separate the base from the top leaving a curved mating surface which allows the box to be set to the angle required and welded up.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Urgent Austin
Tom Coates
I had a reproduction raked box on my Cup model and never had much success with getting the worm and gear to mesh properly. Despite careful setting up it would start off horribly and then gradually become slack over 100 miles until there was so much play that it wouldn't stay in a straight line.


Hi Tom,

I'm currently saving my shekels for a new sports steering box casing, but now I'm worried it might not be the best option! If the gears on your box were meshed "horribly" (tightly?) then I wonder how they could become unmeshed other than through something not being done up properly? Did you do the laborious lapping job? I did that to my Ruby box last summer and I have to say I am pleased by the result. It took three long sessions with the grinding paste to get it right!

The other option for me is the dreaded wedge, but one hears nasty stories about them...


I have never used a wedge, but I don't think they are for the purist! I think you have to fiddle with the brake pivot which sounds like a bit of a pain.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Hi Tom,

I've got two spare s/h steering boxes and one casting of the aluminium case/mounting which has never been built up - must be NOS I guess?

The end float of the column is controlled by how far the column is screwed in. The meshing with the wheel is controlled by the three(?) nuts securing the steel plate on the side of the box. I guess if there is a lot of end float then you would get the illusion of a poor mesh at the wheel.

Or, and this would be more of a concern if you bought a new casting, the thread the column screws into might not be straight - if it is presenting the column at an angle, that might explain the problem, and could probably be found out if you still have it.

I'm not a TIG welder and would be a little concerned about having a go myself given the vital job of this particular component!

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Tom,

"I have never used a wedge, but I don't think they are for the purist! I think you have to fiddle with the brake pivot which sounds like a bit of a pain."

Can't be too bad- my first chassis was built with a solid wedge which I made and fitted under the standard box. From memory the brake pivot was put into the original box hole and into the wedge. This raised the pedal somewhat but still useable.
Must have done something clever with all the bolts but I think the box assembly is still on the Meteor which is being rebuilt 50 years later in country Victoria. I am looking forward to seeing it - from what I hear still fitted with its twin Zenith updraughts

Tony.

Location: Melbourne, Australia.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Urgent Austin
Hi Tom,

I've got two spare s/h steering boxes and one casting of the aluminium case/mounting which has never been built up - must be NOS I guess?

The end float of the column is controlled by how far the column is screwed in. The meshing with the wheel is controlled by the three(?) nuts securing the steel plate on the side of the box. I guess if there is a lot of end float then you would get the illusion of a poor mesh at the wheel.

Or, and this would be more of a concern if you bought a new casting, the thread the column screws into might not be straight - if it is presenting the column at an angle, that might explain the problem, and could probably be found out if you still have it.

I'm not a TIG welder and would be a little concerned about having a go myself given the vital job of this particular component!


Hi Geoffrey,

I think the problem was the alignment as you suggest, I suspect that the excessive engineering tolerance in the thread meant that the columns was at a slight angle. Needless to say the supplier said he'd never had any problems with them with Dad moaned to him about it.

I'm not sure I'd recommend welding it yourself, if you were going to do it that way. If you know a good aluminium welder you can just do the cutting and set it up in a simple wooden jig to make sure the angles are right. If it's properly done it should be as strong as an original. Nick will give you chapter and verse if you are interested.

Tom

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Hi Bill

Thank you very much for the comprehensive list of column lengths!

The difference between Ruby and type 65 of 8" sounds about right. Im going to have to extend a Ruby column, so its going to be a case of getting the dash panel in the right place to start with then working it out to the last 1/2" from there.

Thanks

Stuart.

Location: Devon

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

I have made wedges based on this (see below) design for several successful Special steering projects.

 photo DSC_0215_zps636d156d.jpg

 photo DSC_0214_zps8de7616e.jpg

 photo DSC_0216_zps62cf4f19.jpg

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Stuart - Further re columns. I may have not given you the very one you most require. Will follow up the Dreaded Insect one and let you know. Cheers, Bill

Location: Mount Eliza, Australia

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Stuart - the Unmentionable is 28 1/2" to top of box. Cheers, Bill

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Many thanks Bill & Tony.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

Going back to the earlier discussions on Steering Box angles, A7CA 2013D shows from Austin factory records -

XL 253 No angle but probably 49 1/2 degrees

XL 896....49 1/2 degrees

1A 6025...49 degrees

1A 6041...41 degrees

1A 6042...37 1/2 degrees

1A 6068...(possibly 37 1/2?) 'for Fabric Saloon and other short scuttle models'

The card also notes 'See later card for Cast Steel types'.

In earlier discussions we had added-

9C36......37 1/2 degrees

Tony.



Location: Malvern, Melbourne.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

Tony,

Do you know if there is any difference between the two 37 1/2 degree boxes, (1A 6042 and 9C36) apart from the part number ?

Some years ago I purchased a 37 1/2 degree reproduction steering box casting from Colvin Gunn (sadly no longer with us I believe) does anyone know if anyone else is producing reproduction 37 1/2 boxes ?

Thanks

Marcus

Location: Auckland

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

Marcus

I recently bought a new box for my GE Cup project from James Gunn. The 1A 6041 box fouled the dashboard so James kindly swapped for an "ulster" type with no casting number that works a treat.

I'll measure the angle tomorrow if I get the chance.

James' number is 01279 876 773.

All the best

Peter

Location: United Kingdom

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

Thanks Peter,

That would be great if you could measure the angle for me.


I presume that James is Colvin's son, do you happen to have an email address for him ?

Cheers

Marcus

Location: Auckland

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

Marcus Ling
Tony,

Do you know if there is any difference between the two 37 1/2 degree boxes, (1A 6042 and 9C36) apart from the part number ?

Some years ago I purchased a 37 1/2 degree reproduction steering box casting from Colvin Gunn (sadly no longer with us I believe) does anyone know if anyone else is producing reproduction 37 1/2 boxes ?

Thanks

Marcus


According to the Austin Motor Co. coach builders drawings there is a difference between the two 37 1/2 degree steering boxes.

The difference is in plan view.

The 9C36/9C102 sits parallel to the chassis centre line. 8" at the chassis end and 8" at the steering wheel centre.

The 1A6042 sits splayed. 8'" at the chassis end and (from memory) 10" at the steering wheel centre.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

These may help to illustrate Henry's comments above,

From the front of the car back you have,

1. Standard Box Saloon box

2. A1042

3. Modified A1041(angle to 37.5°)

4. 9C102


The last photo illustrates Henry's point best I think.

 photo DSC_0672_zps703cc6b5.jpg

 photo DSC_0673_zpsccd7f986.jpg

 photo DSC_0671_zps330d8398.jpg

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

Well illustrated, R. Thank you.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

Ruairidh,

Excellent pics.

The 9C102 appears to be less than 37.5 degrees?

Can I ask you a favour whilst the 9C102 is out of the car? Could you confirm how many turns of the steering wheel to 1 turn of the drop arm?

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

Henry,

"this" box is at 35°

I'll get back to you with the turns info.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

6 complete turns Henry.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

Thanks for that info. From memory the standard box is about 6 1/4 turns. I think it confirms that the internals are as the standard type.
There has been recent talk in the 750 Bulletin of the Ulster (or some of them) having a special slower steering ratio which would require either special worm and gear or longer steering arm, or even a shorter drop arm although I think that would be highly unlikely.

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES, NYLOKS & SIMILAR

Tom Coates
Steve Jones
Urgent Austin
Tom Coates
I had a reproduction raked box on my Cup model and never had much success with getting the worm and gear to mesh properly. Despite careful setting up it would start off horribly and then gradually become slack over 100 miles until there was so much play that it wouldn't stay in a straight line.


Hi Tom,

I'm currently saving my shekels for a new sports steering box casing, but now I'm worried it might not be the best option! If the gears on your box were meshed "horribly" (tightly?) then I wonder how they could become unmeshed other than through something not being done up properly? Did you do the laborious lapping job? I did that to my Ruby box last summer and I have to say I am pleased by the result. It took three long sessions with the grinding paste to get it right!

The other option for me is the dreaded wedge, but one hears nasty stories about them...


I bought a repro Ulster steering box a few months ago. It built up quite well with only a minimum of (to be expected) fettling. Car not on the road yet but I've no reason to believe it won't work as it should.

Steve


I think that the main problem was that the thread in the top of the box where the column screws in was very oversize. Although the column locks up tight once the pinch bolt is done up, the thread serves to locate the column (and therefore the worm) relative to the wheel (I'm not sure if that's the right terminology)and it is crucial that this alignment is spot on.

We tried everything including running it up in the lathe with grinding paste, but the worm didn't seem to mesh with the wheel at the right angle, and as a result the steering was horribly stiff and quickly wore to being very loose. I suppose that steering boxes are particularly sensitive to poor alignement. I should specify that it wasn't one of David Cochrane's boxes - from what I have seen, his stuff is very good.

I think I would be tempted to convert an original box if I was doing it again - not only is it cheaper, but you are keeping the same set of componants that have been wearing together since they left the factory.

Dad did the mod for me and managed to cut off the base and fettle it up ready for welding in no time at all. If you cut carefully you can separate the base from the top leaving a curved mating surface which allows the box to be set to the angle required and welded up.




I can second this - my Ulster has a steering box from David Chochrane and the quality is flawless, I have found it relative simple setting up my steering box and like Steve I have no reason to doubt that it will be anything less than 'fit for purpose'!

Location: Gloucestershire

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES - Nippy/65

I have a 9E 96 on the '35 Nipoy. Having difficulties with getting it anywhere near where the bracket should attach, so wondering whether any other Nippies have different 9E numbers...?

Re: STEERING BOX ANGLES

Are you being sarcastic or can you see the photos?
I only see photobucket adverts!
Bruce

Location: New Zealand, Whangarei