Following some earlier discussions regarding engine oil, I note that Wilko have some offers on and are selling a gallon of 20/50 for £5.00……….

With the cost of an engine rebuild, I wouldn't!

Location: Devon

Location: Herefordshire (with an "E", not a "T"!)

I can sell you a gallon of 20/50 for only £4.50.

Has given many miles of excellent service and cost me three times as much when new!

Location: Derby

Although this time I have used a more expensive oil from Halfords ( I got a £20.00 gift voucher for my birthday and didn't know what to spend it on.) I usually use the cheap stuff and change it more frequently than the expensive ones. The reason for this is because of the Austin having almost nil in the way of filtration for oil other than the mesh between the engine and sump. I like the idea of clean oil on a regular basis and using cheap means I can change it more frequently without extra cost. I have been doing this now for the past 6 yearts without any engine problems.


John Mason
Robin Hood Country

Location: Nottinghamshire

Has anyone read the book " Which Oil " by Richard Michell, published by Veloce, I think around 2011?
I have had several good reports from various sources on the technicalities of oils for our types of vehicles.
It's a real " oil bible " I believe.

Location: Melton Mowbray

I've used the cheapest 20/50 oil in my Ruby for the past 17 years (usually from Wilco as it happens ) without any ill effects .Personally in a stock seven, I can't see why I should pay over the odds for oil when there's no need.
The RTC is anothere matter however with the new blown engine I'm going to use fully synthetic.

Location: Worksop Notts

DEJA VU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Location: Herefordshire (with an "E", not a "T"!)

I suppose in the end it comes down to an individual's outlook. Throughout life experience has taught me that generally you get what you pay for. If something is significantly cheaper than an alternative product, this is usually because it is inferior.
If you don't mind using inferior oil, because you believe that it is "good enough" for your particular engine fair enough. I know people who have done that with sevens for many years and genuinely believe that there are no consequences.
Personally I go with the old saying " I'm not rich enough to buy cheap".

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

I do not think I would use it in a Seven.

Most really cheap oils are made from 'Reclaimed Engine Oil'.

Not for me.

Location: Shropshire

Well I'm sorry but my experience of using cheaper oil in my ruby has been nothing but positive.
There are forum members who do many many more miles per year than I do with regular trips on the continent thrown in , who have also used cheaper oils for years and suffered no ill effect. There seems to be a bit of oil snobbery creeping in here.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
Regards Ian 🇬🇧

Location: Worksop Notts

I believe cheap clean oil of the correct grade must be better than expensive oil that has been used for miles and has carbon and other bits of contamination from the engine within it. Using cheap means you can afford to change it more frequently.

Location: Nottinghamshire

Ian, maybe oil insecurity would be nearer the mark!

John, far better to buy decent oil and still change it every 1500 miles or so. How do you know that cheap oils are of any particular grade and, particularly with cheap multigrades that they will maintain whatever grade they purport to be for any length of time? Most really cheap oils have no API grading on the container so you have no real idea what you are buying. I have even seen some which just say "20-50" which is totally meaningless. It should, of course say 20W-50 and back this up with a API rating.

With many things it is possible to take good look at them and make a reasonable assesment of the quality; oil isn't one of these things it all looks very much alike to the naked eye so, I buy reputable brands with the appropriate grading markings.

I don't actually care if other people are content to use inferior lubricants, I'm just trying to explain why I don't.
In the overall costs of running and maintaining a vintage car an extra £20 for a gallon of decent engine oil is insignificant.

If you want to know a little more about oil please read on:

This information comes from another forum and I am posting it as I believe it contains some interesting information,
which can be helpful when considering the various oils now available.
We get asked many oil related questions every day and decided to put some of the most frequently asked ones to an Oil
Expert called John Rowland. He has been the Chief R&D Chemist for Fuchs/Silkolene for many years and previously
developed ahead of their time ester based oils for the RR Jet industry. What he doesn?t know about oil is not worth
knowing in our opinion!
1) How is an oil manufactured; transformed from the black sludge that comes out of the ground, into the nectar-like
substance we pour into our cars and bikes?
Crude oil, which is usually very thin, (contrary to popular belief!) is distilled into light and heavy fractions, with several
intermediate ones. (The evil left-overs are used to fuel the 15 million cc/40RPM diesels in the giant oil tankers that bring
the crude to the refinery.)
The lighter fractions, usually more than 90% of the original crude, are converted into petrol and diesel. Some of the
heavier oils, (still dark and smelly!) go through several processes to clean them up and remove wax. Out of about a dozen
oily products 4 clear, bright amber oils are commonly used to blend modern engine and gear oils. These are roughly
equivalent to SAE 10, 20, and 30 engine rating and 140 gear rating. Oil refineries also produce all sorts of gases and
chemical compounds which can be used to build up 'tailor made' lubricants: synthetics!
2) What are the most important substances added to the refined base oils? What do they do?
In the Dark Ages, engines used blends of refined mineral oils 'straight', with nothing added. The trouble was, even in the
slow-revving engines of 80 years ago the oil didn't last very long, and the engines didn't either.
Black sludge and corrosion were the killers, and both were tackled in the 1950s with detergent and antioxidant chemicals.
(When I was a lad, I used to visit a mate of my Dad's who rebuilt the very popular side-valve Ford engines. The thick crap
inside these things was unbelievable! The valve tappets were moving in holes in solid blocks of carbon!) The detergents
washed the carbon from fuel combustion off the bores and out of the ring grooves, and at the same time reduced bore
and piston ring corrosion.
The antioxidants stopped the oil reacting with oxygen in the air, which cut acid sludge formation which in turn reduced
corrosion and oilway blockages. Some antioxidants had the useful side-effect of reducing wear as well. This added up to
longer oil and engine life, both improving about three times. (Straight oil had to be changed every 1000miles, and even
lightly-stressed engines running on it were ready for a full overhaul at 15-20,000.) OK, I admit there were design and
metallurgical improvements, but they needed that vital 'liquid component' to be fully effective.
Later came dispersant compounds which held the carbon as tiny particles in the oil which didn't settle out anywhere, and
slipped through the oil filter as if it wasn't there.(Solid bits in well-used modern oil are about 1/1000mm across; the pores
in an oil filter are at least 15 times bigger.)
The other big problem with oil used to be cold starting. It was usual to have SAE 20 Winter or 'W' grades, and SAE 30 or
40 Summer grades, and even the so-called Winter types would defeat the starter in serious cold weather. Unfortunately,
oil is very thick when it's cold, and very thin when it's hot. To have an oil thick enough to look after a
hard working engine, you had to use a grade which was too thick when it was cold.
The answer was (and is) multigrade! What was needed was an oil that behaved like a 20 'W' grade in the cold, but only
thinned down to a SAE 40 or 50 when really hot; yes, 20W/50! This can be done by mixing thin oil with thick polymers
based on plastics and synthetic rubbers; these don't do much in the cold, but as the oil warms up they unwind and thicken
it up to some extent. The oil still thins down, but not as quickly as a polymer-free or monograde type.
Multigrades started to catch on around 1960, but these pioneer types were easily ruined by mechanical shear effects,
more so in gearboxes than engines. These days the better quality polymers resist shear even in combined
engine/transmissions, so it is essential to use good quality shear-resistant types in a gearbox fed by the engine (such as
the traditional mini!), which gives its oil a hard time in both engine and gearbox.
Incidentally, there are large amounts of these additives and polymers in there, it's not just 'a little bit of this, a little bit of
that'! A good quality mineral 10W/40 can be 80% base 20% additive chemistry, and guess which is the expensive
ingredient!
3) What are the differences, in layman's terms, between mineral, semi-synthetic and fully-synthetic engine oil? (In terms of
structure and performance.)
Before we get into details, the first thing to realise that there is no chalk and cheese difference between mineral and
synthetic based oils. After all, the chemical compounds which make mineral engine oils so much better are themselves
synthetic.
Synthetic lubricant bases are stepwise improvements on mineral oil, with more desirable properties and fewer undesirable
ones. The second important point is that there's no one thing called 'synthetic'! There are several different types of
synthetic lubricant, and to say something like: 'the Supergrunt GTI TURBO must have a full synthetic' is meaningless
unless the 'expert' explains what sort of synthetic he means.
Equally, to imply that dreadful things will happen if the 1970 RV8 is run on anything other than good? ole mineral oil is
ridiculous. It may not need a 2007 synthetic, but it isn't going to come to any harm if the owner uses a 2007 synthetic!
The most basic type of synthetic is really a special mineral oil. Known as 'hydrocracked' bases, these are made in oil
refineries by putting certain types of mineral fraction through special processing, so they cost more than the usual mineral
types but not much more. They are useful because they resist evaporation at high temperatures. Although
used for years for genuine technical reasons, they are now popular with marketing men because the magic sexy word
'synthetic' can legitimately be printed on the label without spending much on the oil inside the can!
Yes, all low-cost 'synthetics' contain anything from a few percent to 20 percent (i.e. 'semi-synthetic') of special mineral oil.
Using fairly simple chemical compounds or gases from oil refineries or other sources, it is possible to 'synthesise' or build
up tailor-made lubricant molecules which have very desirable characteristics, such as great resistance to cold, heat,
evaporation losses or excessive thinning as they get hot. These are the true synthetics, and the two that are used in
engine oils are PAOs (poly alpha olefins) and esters.
Neither is cheap! PAOs are related to mineral oils, and are the ideal carriers for all the chemical compounds used in
mineral oils. Because they do not gel at very low temperatures, all genuine 0W-something oils have to be based on PAOs
to pass the 0W test at a sub-arctic -35C.
Esters were originally made for jet engine lubricants, and to this day all jet oils are ester-based. Although similar in
performance to PAOs, they have a valuable extra trick: they are good lubricants and help to protect metal surfaces. Esters
help with transmission and valve train lubrication. 100% fully synthetic oils are actually quite rare, probably because they
are very expensive to make, and even more expensive to buy.
Even so, an ester/PAO with a very shear stable multigrade polymer is the ultimate oil for high output engines that are
worked hard, which means racing.
4) How does oil work? What gives it its lubricating properties? How does it 'cling on' to surfaces?
A plain bearing such as a main or big end, when spinning fast is 'floating' on a relatively thick film of oil. The metal
surfaces literally do not touch. The high velocity drives a wedge of oil between the two surfaces, and the oil film supports
the load, just like a water skier skimming over that very thin lubricant, water. But, when the engine slows down and stops
the bearing shells drop through the film and touch the crankpins, just as the skier sinks in up to his neck when he lets go
of the rope.
It is where there is metal to metal contact that lubrication, that is, something to reduce wear and seizure, is needed. On
gear teeth, valve components, and piston rings at top or bottom dead centre, there is no high speed rotation to generate
'wedge' support, so the oil films are very thin, and some metal contact is inevitable. Some fluids, even if they look thick
and oily, are completely hopeless! Very pure mineral oils, and some synthetics fall into this group. They depend entirely
on chemical load-carrying compounds which react with metal at high pressures and temperatures to provide very thin
protective films which prevent micro-welds where metal surfaces come into contact.
Detergent and antioxidant chemicals often double up as anti-wear agents. The odd ones out are esters. These are
attracted to metal by electrostatic forces and cling on when surfaces are forced into contact.
5) What are (or can be) the main differences between oils of the same type, i.e. what's the difference between a 'good'
and a 'bad' oil?
It all comes down to honesty really.....so beware! A good oil is what it claims to be on the can. 10W/40? Does it really
pass the cold test at -25C? Quite a few I've tested do not. There is usually an API spec quoted, such as API SH or SL.
These are car-based, and a good basic quality guide. If absent, leave it on the shelf, and avoid lawyer-speak:
'meets the requirements of....' or 'recommended (by whom?) for use in....'.
Then there is the 'synthetic' minefield! Provided the price hasn't been pushed up by shipping an average oil 5000miles
from the West coast of the USA, you get what you pay for. The best performance oils are made in the more developed
European countries, but low price buys the cheap 'modified mineral' synthetic and not much of it, with a poor multigrade
polymer. As is so often the case, quality follows cost.
6) What are the likely consequences of using poor-quality oil?
Usually, these are fairly long term, except in racing. Think of the oil as a liquid component, and poor oil as a cheap pattern
spare. In a road car long-term reliability and performance retention (i.e. acceleration figures below new spec., fuel and oil
consumption above) are the casualties. Particularly in a high performance or racing car,
the effects can be more immediate and catastrophic.
7) Some oil companies have run advertising campaigns that imply their products have special, unique qualities. Can these
adverts be taken seriously?
Yes and no! Generally adverts in magazines are honest, with marketing-speak terms such as ?Magnatec? and ?
Electrosyntec? really being code words for esters, which are particularly beneficial in performance engine oils. No
manufacturer has any unique ?secret?, so it?s all down to providing the best possible blend for the job at the right price,
and making it clear that you get what you pay for. I personally think that the importance of shear stability or ?stay in
grade? is not stressed enough when quality is talked about.
What is dodgy though is claiming that a mineral based oil with a few percent of modified mineral (?hydrocracked?)
synthetic is the DB?s and suitable for racing, etc. when it clearly isn?t.
Also, there is endless semantic manoeuvring and lawyer-speak around The Magic Word ?synthetic?.
For instance, a ?synthetic? oil is invariably semi-synthetic (?Ah! We didn?t say it was all synthetic did we?), and, if low
priced, invariably the modified mineral type synthetic. It is a sad fact that you get what you pay for, but even so, stick to
the reputable UK/European brands, and remember that shipping an oil half way around the world doesn?t automatically
make it better than one made in your home town.
As for TV advertising?well, does anybody believe it? Due to its huge cost, a TV advertising campaign can significantly
raise the cost of specialist items such as oil. Everybody assumes it?s just a few pence per gallon, but it can be pounds per
gallon.)
Please can you explain the grading system? What is meant by the weight of an oil? What does 10W/40 mean for
example?
Weight means viscosity, or resistance to flow. Water and paraffin flow very easily, so they are low or light viscosity.
Golden syrup or 140 gear oil do not come out of the can so easily, so they are high or heavy viscosity.
Especially with oils, temperature is very, very important. An oil which looks ?heavy? at 20C will be very ?light? at 100C.
People sometimes say, ?I drained the oil when the engine was hot and it ran out like water?? so I say, ?Good! It?s
supposed to be like that!?
The American Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) ratings cover cold starts and ?up and running? viscosities. There
are two sets of standards, the ?Winter? (W) ratings, and the 100C standard ratings. (?W? does not, repeat not, mean ?
weight?!)
So a 10W/40 oil has to pass a 10W cold viscosity test at -25C, and a SAE 40 test at 100C. In an oil lab there will be a
refrigerated viscosity measuring device for the ?W? tests and another at 100C for the standard SAE tests. There are 6 ?
W? ratings from the difficult 0W at -35C to the dead easy 25W at -10C, occasionally used in India for example!
The whole point of these Winter ratings is to assist cold starts, to get the oil circulating quickly, and to avoid power and
fuel wasting drag as the engine warms up. Once it is warmed up, the 100C ratings count. There are 5 of these, 20, 30, 40,
50, and 60 although why anybody bothers with 60 in the 21st Century is a mystery to me!
Sorry folks, but I?ve got to get technical. Viscosity is measured in standard units called ?Centistokes?, names after a
Victorian engineer, Sir George Stokes, who used to time ball bearings as they sank through oil. SAE 30 for example is
from 9.3 to 12.5 Centistokes, and SAE 40 follows on at 12.5 to 16.3, although most SAE 40 oils are in the middle at about
14.
Now this is something most don?t realise: engines do not know what grade of oil they?re running on. They?re not clever
enough! So an engine filled with 10W/40 will be running on a viscosity of 14 at 100C, but with a sump temperature of 90C
its seeing a viscosity of 18, so as far as the engine is concerned it?s running on SAE 50. Likewise, at 110C, it?s down to
11 Centistokes so it ?thinks? it?s on a SAE 30! (Which is preferable.)
The lesson is, do not use power and fuel-wasting thick oils in cool climates. A decent 10W/40 or even thinner is perfectly
OK unless you?re running a classic with wide clearances and a slow oil pump.
Radical race cars use 1300 Suzuki Hyabusas and work them very hard. (Didn?t one take the old Nurburgring absolute
record at one point?). They use our high-ester 15W/50, but that?s OK because they see oil temps around 130C! (No
problem for the oil or the engine, but they do fit special oil seals.) At 130C the true viscosity is 10cSt, so the engine thinks
its on a thin SAE 30, which keeps it happy.
8) What is the best type of oil to use in a road car for general use? Is fully synthetic a waste of money?
Personally I?d go for a shear-stable part ester synthetic, SAE 10W/40 or 5W/40. The ?shear-stable? bit (ie, a decent
quality multigrade polymer) is actually more important than the ?synthetic? part!
If strapped, I?d go for a shear-stable mineral based oil rather than a ?synthetic? of dubious stability that?s probably based
on modified mineral oil anyway. Unless you?re covering a huge annual mileage, genuine 100% synthetics are probably an
extravagance. High mileage long-distance fans can use a light full synthetic and save on fuel and oil changes, and cut
overhaul costs if things get to that stage, but more later?..
9) What are the main differences between 2 and 4-stroke oil? Why does 2-stroke oil have to be mixed with fuel?
2-stroke oil has a very short working life, straight in and out, and it gets burnt. The 2-stroke engine doesn?t have a sump
full of oil and the bearings are all rollers, so there?s hardly any oil drag, hence no need for multigrades. Long term stability
is obviously not a problem!
But, 2-stroke must burn off without leaving any plug-fouling or detonation-initiating deposits. The detergent and anti-wear
additives used in 4-stroke oil leave hard white ash behind when they burn, just what you do not need in a 2-stroke. So 2-
stroke oils use low-ash detergents and dispersants, and the better types use ester synthetics to act as anti-wear
compounds.
With current environmental concerns, smoke is a sensitive issue, so most ?road? 2-stroke oils are now low smoke, which
requires yet another type of synthetic base designed to burn off invisibly. For some rather basic but very high-revving aircooled
racing 2-strokes there?s still some sense in using blends with that marvellous anti-seize liquid, castor oil!
Due to crankcase induction and compression, the classical 2-stroke obviously cannot have an oil-filled sump, so the only
way to keep an oil film on anything was to add oil to the fuel, or inject oil into the crankcase space where it could mix with
the fuel vapour. There are now some engines where the fuel and oil are injected separately, but the oil is still burnt.
10) How important is it to change oil regularly? What are the implications of failing to do so?
It is only really important to change oil regularly if the engine covers a low annual mileage made up of slow, short runs.
This is being cruel to the oil and the engine! The oil, regardless of its quality, gets full of fuel and water vapour, and never
gets the chance to evaporate it all off with a long fast run. The consequences are corrosion, ring and bore wear. It is
essential to do a change at least once a year, even if the recommended mileage hasn?t been covered. On the other hand,
if you eat up the miles on long blasts the engine and its oil will love it, so with a top-quality oil it is OK to cheat a little on oil
drain periods.
11) Do some types of oil (i.e. fully-synthetic) ?wear out? quicker than others? How important are timely oil changes? Can
you rely on the frequency suggested by your User Manual?
The type of oil that is likely to give trouble after low mileage is a light viscosity type with poor shear stability, either mineral
or modified mineral based. (Such as one of the USA ?fuel economy? oils for lazy car engines that pushed the Japanese
OEMs to bring in their own oil spec.) The important thing is the shear stability; the much hyped ?synthetic or mineral?
nonsense is a red herring.
The oils that will last the longest are the relatively rare 100% genuine synthetic shear stable types, which will easily stand
twice the recommended drain period in a high-mileage high performance engine. (So in the long run they aren?t really so
expensive.) Just the thing for those touring fiends who pack up and set of for the Transylvanian Alps as soon as the
clocks go forward!
Of course, User Manual drain recommendations are based on a back-covering ?worst case? scenario of low annual
mileage on poor quality oil, so they can be regarded as a very safe minimum mileage.
In the past, there used to be trouble with heavy carbon deposits and sludge around the engine with early low-detergent
oils, but these days almost any oil with a good API specification will keep everything clean for 10 to 15,000 miles, so that?
s the least of your worries.
12) Does oil have to be warm to do its job properly? Is it important to warm up your engine before using at speed?
Yes, it does have to be at least warm, and preferably hot. Most people except the sort with white finger syndrome find
metal at 60C too hot to touch, yet 60C is too cold for oil in an engine that?s going flat-out. The best approach is to use a
good 5W/40 or even a 10W/40, and take it easy for the first couple of miles, especially in very cold weather.
For racing, a really good warm-up is essential, except perhaps with special 0W/20 low-drag race oils. The trouble is, oil
pumps are very good at pushing oil out at 60PSI, but unfortunately there is only 14PSI (atmospheric pressure) pushing it
in! (Even less in Katmandhu.) So it?s easy for an oil pump to pull voids or pockets of vacuum in the oil if it doesn?t flow
fast enough into to uptake. This ?cavitation? obviously reduces the amount of oil the pump can deliver.
Also, in high-speed bearings the oil can be too thick to keep up with the high rubbing speeds reached in modern engines
so the ?wedge? or hydrodynamic? effect breaks down. I know it goes against common sense (whatever that is) but the
faster a bearing is turning the thinner the oil should be. (A 4cm. diameter main bearing is rubbing its shells at 56 MPH at
12,000RPM! To avoid cavitation the oil need to be less 10cSt or less, which is SAE 30 if the oil happens to be at 100C, or
SAE 40 if its at 110C.))
What is the difference between road and racing oils?
The days of incense-like ?R? oils for racing only are past, except for classics. At least as far as 4-strokes are concerned,
the best synthetic types are ideal for both race and road use.
With ultra-precise components, high-pressure pumps and high engine RPM there has been a move to special synthetic
low cavitation/low drag oils to release more power with no reliability loss. These can be (and are!) used in road cars, but
0W/20 is not mentioned in the user handbooks, so there is always some warranty risk. Honda is perhaps the only
exception!
13) How does a high-performance oil allow the motor to produce more power?
An engine wastes fuel energy in several ways, and most of them are due to the laws of thermodynamics, which is another
way of saying you can?t do much about it. But up to 6% of engine output is lost due to oil drag, made up of pumping
losses and viscous drag between moving components. The transmission is included in this.
Provided wear and friction are kept down, there are real gains to be made by using a ?tough? but low viscosity oil.
Surprisingly, frictional losses are low, down at 3% or less even with conventional oils, so there are few gains to be made
here.
I have actually seen this extra power output on the dyno! A very experienced operator in Peterborough who does a lot of
test work for Lord Emap used his own year-old Honda Blackbird, with the first run on his favourite 15W/50 high-ester
synthetic. 128BHP.
Then we changed to a 5W40 high ester synthetic. (So it wasn?t an unfair comparison with B & Q 15W/50!) This time we
saw 131.6BHP with a corresponding torque increase.
Finally we went to a new (at that time) 0W/20 special synthetic and 134.4BHP appeared! Even the boss was impressed!
Later trials in different race and road engines showed this level of improvement was no fluke, so it really does work; and,
with the right chemistry to look after the engine and transmission internals, there?s no down side of increased wear.


Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Thanks Ian,

That is actually very interesting.

Stuart.

Thank you, Stuart.

Location: Shropshire

Hi all
The book Which Oil is a concise presentation of the general picture, and a worthwhile read. Much of it was and maybe is on the Net. But the author is not a technical expert working in the field. His recommendations for older cars are absurdly conservative and extravagant.
The problem is the only real experts are closely linked to oil companies and are not going to say "for vintage design cars a reclaimed oil of reasonable base viscosity, genuinely to API SF, is infinitely better than oils of the pre war era and will, with reasonably balanced running, give an engine wear life likely to outlast any crank or white metal big end, and negligibly inferior to the most expensive oils"
Prior to the mid 30s Sevens, and everything else, ran on SA with no additives at all. Until the mid 50s SB oils maybe with ZDTP. Many inexpensive oils were little better than this for some years after. To the mid 50s,especially for cars used for short runs, cyl wear, sludge, worn Seven main bearings were normal. Since the mid 50s anti oxidant, anti acid, anti rust etc additives have multiplied and engine wear in all cars has been hugely reduced since, esp since mid 60s (mere SD)(The exception being wear on heavily loaded cams caused by breakdown of early thin base oil multigrades)
If persons really want their Seven to go 200,000 miles without overhaul, as moderns are expected to do, then in addition to the ugly non standard filter, they should fit an ugly thermostat, and avoid starting the engine for trips of less than several miles. And perhaps an ugly oil cooler to protect the w.m. big ends.
My car at 100000 miles in the mid 50s, with lots of short runs and sludge, showed about .001/.002 ovality/wear on the original not nitrided crank and no filter. Hardly troublesome wear. A soft crank is about the only item for which a filter important (apart from removing silicon blobs and cork gasket bits)As mentioned before, VWs to mid 60s had no filter.
The main bearings are the main problem in the Seven. Anti corrosion additives probably more vital then all the rest. Water condensation build up must be minimised.
It was often claimed that old oil is a superior base, as all the unstable molecules had been broken down. For years the large local municipal bus company used a re refined oil with genuine API certification.
The problem with cheaper oils is that the old API ratings are obsolete, no longer tested, and rely on the integrity of the maker/marketer.
Bob Culver

Location: Auckland

Ian,

I have been telling the same story on the forum (although in a rather more abbreviated fashion) for a while - although I think we are 'preaching to the converted'.

I have also suggested that those interested in good car lubrication should get a copy of 'Which Oil'

The comments about using the cheapest oil start to sound a bit like a Monty Python Script - 'you should be so lucky'- I have used the dregs from the frying pan for the last 20 years with no problems.

I guess in the end it really doesn't matter- I gain no benefit from suggesting anything, having left the Oil Industry some years ago and not even getting a spotters fee from 'Which Oil'.

Tony. (20 years in the oil industry and sometime Chief Engineer Lubes, Mobil Oil Australia)

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

Bob,

"The book Which Oil is a concise presentation of the general picture, and a worthwhile read. Much of it was and maybe is on the Net. But the author is not a technical expert working in the field. His recommendations for older cars are absurdly conservative and extravagant."

Bit harsh-

The author a graduate of Sydney University (BE(Chem) ’67 PhD ’71) drove an MG TD and now a Porsche 912, a Lancia Beta Spider and an Austin 7. His information allows a good understanding and selection of suitable lubricants - with no bias from an oil company to influence his suggestions- and that is what they are.
Most of the information on lubricants is probably on the internet but there is also a great amount of incorrect information on there as well, so it is useful to have a well researched, unbiased book.

I believe that anyone with a genuine interest in good lubrication for their car should read it.

I find it interesting that some Austin Seven owners will restore a car spending endless time and money on the correct fittings and then quibble over the correct lubricant.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

I may indeed be an oil snob. My lawn mower has Castrol RS fully synthetic race oil in its sump. Well what else was I going to use it in? Our road cars are all TDI or Austin sevens.

Location: Devon

For me, the chief factor is how long the oil stays in the engine. The Chummy, at nearly 90 years old is pretty incontinent (as I expect I will be if I reach that age) and so I think it's a waste of money pouring expensive oil through the engine. It probably doesn't stay there for long enough to make much difference whether it's cheapo Wllko's or expensive Castrol or whichever. If you have a nice rebuilt oil-tight engine, then of course that's a different scenario.

David

The comments about using the cheapest oil start to sound a bit like a Monty Python Script - 'you should be so lucky'- I have used the dregs from the frying pan for the last 20 years with no problems.



good one tony my first laugh for the day!

Location: oz

I'm not rich, so to avoid an engine rebuild I buy proper classic oil intended for engines of our era which are without filters and often stand for longish periods.

Modern oils intended for cars with cats have less zinc which protects against wear in parts like camshaft lobes. Search for ZDDP on the internet

Oil seems expensive, it never goes down when the price of crude falls, but its an essential part of your engine

Location: mired in the sussex clay

Fascinating as a Civil Engineer I dealt with the heavier ends of the spectrum and have always used a high quality oil. In the 60's I ran a high revving Austin A35 (8000 regularly) on Castrol - a bit of a fright to Mini Coopers! When sump taken off after 10,000 miles no wear and clean subsequently sold to a colleague who ran it trouble free for many years.

Today I use Castrol in the A7, Mobil synthetic in the diesel A6 and Mobil Semi in the petrol A 3.

John

I'm on Halfords classic 20/50, fairly recently (in terms of miles) rebuilt engine.

I do use Wilkos oil, I bought the stuff in the white bottles that actually retails at £5 a bottle rather than the discounted £15 a bottle stuff)

I put it in my Fordson Major. Previous oil change to me was circa 15 years ago, the oil in it smelt more like diesel and when I took the sump plug out nothing came out untill I poked my finger in and moved the sludge out of the way (yes I know, never put your finger where you wouldnt put your dick!). It knocks anyway and is only used now to push and pull the steamers about the yard, it took this job over off the peugeot 306 as it made the clutch smell a bit.

The steamer is total loss, I use about 3 or 4 litres of various oils in a day. All at about £5/l

Perusing the Miller Oil website I found a rather interesting statement HERE which says:
"NOTE: Multi grade oils are not recommended for engines which employ roller-bearing crankshafts."

Anyone any idea why??

I know several users of this forum advocate the use of Millers Classic SAE20W/50; any views on this statement would be very welcome.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

My concern with the boutique classic oils is that these may effectively be mere API SD or less, a lower API rating than the cheapest supermarket oils, yet sold at premium prices.

Thin oils release power and improve mpg, the driving force to the current thin oils. Such oils dont make the engine any quieter. On the SAE 50 etc once recommended for Sevens, progress on a very cold day could be tedious!
I can recall days with biting southerly breezes for which Wellington is noted, when my car could not get out of 3rd gear on the level!

ZDTP is a whole separate topic. Although reduced in current oils, something must be contributing to the near nil cyl wear. ZDTP did not only reduce cam wear. (For a car with valves which can be pushed open by hand the need for ZDTP is questionable!)A chemical engineer colleague of mine, at least as well qualified as the author of Which Oil, notes that diesel oils still carry high ZDTP and he uses in his classic car. However with the Seven avoidance of corrosion of the main bearings is an overriding consideration, and I do not know how such oils rank.

Thanks to the Internet, few advanced subjective technical books on matters such as oils now get published, and the likes of public libraries no longer carry. But such books 20 years ago showed current multigrades to have very dubious characteristics at high shear, the situation in a sliding bearing. Behave as the lower viscosity! Yet such oils have universally been advocated and used for years, a period of remarkably low engine wear. Even used for for long distance trucks, the least likely application.

It is curious to reflect that the early multigrades of the late 1950s were touted as premium oils and sold at a premium price at the time. These oils rapidly broke down to the lower viscosity and less and took out myriads of camshafts and followers (excluding low loaded Sevens!)

(Non Seven)recommended change periods include a time basis, on the basis that a low mileage assumes short runs. How relevant this is if the car did all its little running as long trips I dont know. Most owners seem to just follow the mileage recommendation. Similarly the degree to which oil used for short runs is permanently redeemed by a very long run has never been made clear to me.

Bob Culver

Location: Auckland

Bob,

"My concern with the boutique classic oils is that these may effectively be mere API SD or less, a lower API rating than the cheapest supermarket oils, yet sold at premium prices."

The production and marketing of a tiny quantity of specially blended 'boutique classic oils' would be a very costly operation when compared to the large volume of 'supermarket oils' resulting in the price difference.

Many of your other queries are covered in the 'Answers to some common questions' section at the back of 'Which Oil', including the advice to not use 'diesel engine' oil in a vintage engine, together with an explanation.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

So where does Duckhams 20w50 engine oil fit into the equation? Is it suitable for A7 engines?.... And why is it green?

Location: Derby

Where can you buy it today, Ray??

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Hi Ian. The last time I saw it for sale was on special offer at Halfords a few years ago here in Derby but it seems to have disappeared locally. Perhaps it has been discontinued. I remember when it was a major contender and many garages (including my Dad's) used it. They could probably get a bulk order discount. I vaguely remember it was recommended for minis and 1100s because it was good for oil consumption and "shear" qualities but I never really understood the technical details. Personally,I have driven a great many miles using it in a variety of older cars. The moment I changed to Castrol GTX one time, the oil consumption went right up.

Location: Derby

I have just been investigating good old Duckhams motor oil and it is now out of production. Invented in 1899 by Alexander Duckham the firm was always associated with Morris and Wolesley. In more recent times their most popular product was "hypergrade".(Remember the advertising slogan "the engine's choice") In 1975 they sponsored the Lotus F1 team. Although the brand is still owned by BP (who bought it in 1969 and tried to sell it a couple of years ago)the takeover of Castrol sent the Duckhams brand into decline.

The nearest suitable equivalent I can find is Morris Golden film classic 20w50.

Location: Derby

I would think that if you carefully read Ian's post - the brand name doesn't mean very much - the reputation of the brand owner is your only guarantee.

Wakefield Castrol, Duckhams NOL, Morrisol Sirrom (no relation to Morris Lubricants - a reputable UK company)etcetera are all long gone.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

Tony, you used to be "in the business", can you answer this one please??

"Perusing the Miller Oil website I found a rather interesting statement which says:
"NOTE: Multi grade oils are not recommended for engines which employ roller-bearing crankshafts."

Anyone any idea why??"

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Yes, sorry Mike. We do go off at a tangent sometimes!

Location: Derby

Ian, (and interested others)

"Perusing the Miller Oil website I found a rather interesting statement which says:
"NOTE: Multi grade oils are not recommended for engines which employ roller-bearing crankshafts."

This is based on the the above discussion about the formulation of multi grade oils by using long chain polymers as 'viscosity index' improvers. These polymers are cut up by severe churning and it is suggested that lubricating roller bearings will cause this 'churning'.

Typically this would result in a 20w/40 oil becoming a 20w/30 or lower. More a problem with cheap oils with lower cost hence lower quality vi improvers.

All of the discussion is very applicable to the initial note-

"Following some earlier discussions regarding engine oil, I note that Wilko have some offers on and are selling a gallon of 20/50 for £5.00………."

As suggested the cheap 20w/50 would soon be a 20w/30 or lower and should be changed, negating any saving and possibly shortening the life of the engine. This is not to mention what other additives might be in the oil which are not good for an early engine.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

Thanks Tony, I rather thought that might be the case but I wanted an expert opinion.
I have to say that I've used decent (I think!!)low detergent API SE CC 20w-50 oil in my engine since a complete rebuild (new crank, all new bearings, thorough clean out of galleries etc.) almost 10K miles ago and am not aware of any such problem occurring.
The oil pressure hot stays constantly at around 7psi @ 3500rpm between oil changes.(overbored pump and restricted flow to camshaft front bearing)

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Perhaps there is a difference in the behaviour of 20W50 oil in a low power unit (i.e. Austin Seven) and say a Bugatti of similar vintage?

Location: Derby

Hi Ray, I don't know, but there are only two roller bearings in my engine, the rear main and the centre camshaft bearings. It ain't a Bug but I do take it to 5000rpm in second if the hill is appropriate and I'm tempted to show off (44mph on the SatNav.) but not often and not for too long.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Ray,

I would suggest for your Bugatti, if used hard, a quality full synthetic would be the best choice.
The Austin Seven will be well served with a good mineral oil without a lot of VI improver.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

Tony. I will take on board your recommendation for my Bugatti - when I get one - all I need to do is win the Lottery...............

Location: Derby