I am helping a friend with a Mk 2 Cabriolet to sort his semi girling brakes, after looking at a number of cars and asked people who should know, still cannot decide if the rear brake lever operates from the top or the bottom (as it is on his car) of the back plate.
We have both looked at a number of similar cars and as many seem to have them on the top as do cars with them operating from the bottom.
Looking at the way the brake cable is too far below (and rubbing on the rear cross member) the brass jockey wheel makes me think the brake lever should be on the top of the back plate. Thanks in anticipation Ian M

Location: Bristol UK

Thanks for this post. I was looking at a dismantled late Ruby today, and noticed that the rear cables appeared to foul the crossmember (levers at the bottom) and that the jockey pulley (seized) didn't look to be doing anything. Itlooks to me that if the levers were moved to the top that the cable would be operating under tension on the bottom of the pulley.

Dave

Ian and Dave,

the lever should be at the rear of the axle and the adjuster at the front, many are not so.

well I had to go and look on my 1938 Opal,Ruby with the rooof cut off, agree with Ruairidh

Ruairidh Dunford

Location: Shropshire

It seems a very long time since I last saw a nipple let alone be allowed to grease it Ian.

If I lived north of the border I would probably have myself sewn into a onesy too.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

I love a challenge, you have been warned.

Thank you Dave, Ruairidh and Derek, I saw a set up on a car like the picture this afternoon and discounted it because the brake cable was so close to the springs. I can see by rotating the back plate a quarter of a turn on my friends car that it will bring the cable nearer to the pulley wheel, but wonder if it will be enough to fit tight against it, don’t suppose the cable goes on top of the pulley does it?
If I can take the brake shoes off can I get to the bolts and turn the back plate to the correct position? I will want to avoid removing the hubs as I think the puller threads may be shot.
Never owned or worked on a late car before so this is all new to me and I am very grateful for your help. Many thanks Uncoupled Ian

Location: Bristol UK

Hi Ian

Checked the setup on my partially dismantled Ruby Mk2, and as R says, the brake cams are behind the halfshaft centreline, and the cables fit below the pulleys, between the two pulley support arms. They would probably fall off in service otherwise.

If you can get hold of a hub die to clean up the puller threads, it makes good sense to check out the hubs for oil leakage which could mess up your hard work on the braking system. Check that the brake shoes are perpenicular to the backplates at the same time.

Bob

Location: St Tudy 50 miles east of Sandy, 4 miles east of Alastair in N Cornwall

All the above assumes the stock later car.

When semi Girling axle and brakes are refitted to high chassis cars, a cable alignment more like the original is achieved with the backplate rotated and the arms inverted. Ideally new guides are required, or can operate with none. Non standard cable length.

Possibly a source of confusion

What is truly rebarbitive (on cars with stock bodies)is the often seen arrangement of pre Girling hubs with long levers upside down!

Bob Culver

Location: Auckland

Slight correction.

On my RP the Girling arms are behind the axle and inverted with cables not much above the axle. The backplates are not rotated. For some reason the taught cable passes much closer to the axle than the photo above would suggest. The holes have not been redrilled and the backplates do not appear to be handed?
Maybe the torque tube angle is greater.

Bob Culver

Location: Auckland

Ian, each of the girling cams are handed and stamped to indicate if they are for the front, back, nearside or offside. Once you have the correct cam in the correct backplate the lever can only really go on one way

PS for what it is worth I agree with the picture R has posted above.

Location: NZ

The markings on the cams that Ian mentions above are illustrated here:

http://pub25.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=2099944454&frmid=5&msgid=908987&cmd=show

Hi Ruairidh

The axle end looks different from my car. Appears to have nuts to retain the backplate. Is at an original Girling or modified previous type please?

Bob Culver

Location: Auckland

All mounting lugs on girling types are threaded, the picture is a modified earlier type. Take a look at the diff housing on your car there should be a manufacture date stamped on it, If still unsure post a picture here.

Location: NZ

Ian, you are of course correct, the purpose was to correctly illustrate the position of backplate.

The post I have linked to above reminded me of a modification that I was thinking about (and mentioned) at the time which I have now put into practice in a simplified form.

I don't have a modified hub here to photograph but the photo below shows roughly the line at which I remove material, obviously cut above the screw hole - this was hard to draw on a mobile phone:-) :



This allows access to remove brake shoe springs and brake cams easily without the need to disturb the hub, it would also assist Ian M in removing the bolts holding the backplate on so he can rotate it into the correct position. I can recommend it to those of you interested.

Forrest Saloon hub and brake drum. I suspect Mike Forrest modified these for lightness rather than easy access.

Extraordinary, as is the reat of the car, thanks for sharing.

Thanks Ruairidh and Ian

It would seem that the cam axis is slightly lower on an original Girling axle so that with the levers at rear but inverted the cable passes just above the axle, almost on the same horizontal line as the high chassis cars originally (but unfortunately displace transversely.)
I recall when fitting the axle to my RP car eons ago being disappointed that the correctly placed downward lever did not suit.
Low cost motoring was (and is)the order of the day; Y shaped yolks with a second pin were made up to enable otherwise too short stock brake cables to be used.
Presumably others fitting Girling brakes to early cars have found the same and this would explain some of the variety of mountings.
Prior to the Internet, Woodrow, local Club etc it was not easy to establish with certainty the correct intended arrangement of many parts. The first illustration I found of the Girling levers was in one of the Brooklands books.
Dunno which cams used

Bob Culver

.

Location: Auckland

I think this is a standard semi girling axle.

Location: Devon

Many thanks to all who have taken the trouble to ‘nail’ this one, much appreciated.
My friend’s car has the lever directly under the rear spring at the six o’clock position, almost jammed against it!
We will have a go at altering it and hope it will only be a matter of rotating the back plate, but I have a nasty feeling (going by your excellent photos) that his brake cables may then end up too short.
I am now amazed how many different positions I have found on cars I have looked at in the past, I think probably all four! These cars seem go and stop no matter how they are put together!!! well done Stan and Herbert


Anyone know why my Avatar has disappeared, and how to get it back? I went into photobucket and got it back for one message, but it is gone again

Location: Bristol UK

Ian, just copy and paste this

i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae319/6145wk/mycar.jpg

into your Avatar URL box.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Ian How did you do that????? and will it stay there?

Location: Bristol UK

I searched "by user" for one of your earlier posts with an Avatar, right clicked on your Avatar and selected "properties". I copied the URL address shown on properties and pasted it in to my post, deleted the http:// from the start of the URL address and, Bob's your uncle.

It should stay there but, I have found that the occasional PC crash, or changing to an updated version of your browser seems to clear out all the usually remembered details which you enter on the posting "form", including the Avatar address. Irritating!

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Ian,Simple when you know how, many thanks for your help, and it ‘is’ still there!
You would have had a laugh at me copying and pasting every link I could find on my Photobucket page all to no avail, had to stop myself kicking the monitor in disgust.

Location: Bristol UK

Like so much else, Ian, it's easy when you know how but, almost bl@@dy impossible if you don't.

You would not believe the struggle I've just had putting the engine & g'box back into the chummy; fitting a half deep finned alloy sump to this engine wasn't one of my best ideas!!

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

That is why the Sports car now has a removable panel in the firewall - a one gallon finned alloy sump is the very devil to fit (with the gearbox attached)in that small tapering space at the front of the chassis.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Australia

The dinkum Girling and the modified axle certainly look identical.

Ideally cables should move in the same arc as the spring eye. On Girling fitted to high chassis cars and with the original line cable, if below the axle the angle is too steep, and if above too flat!

Is there more than one length for Girling rear levers?

When my car was in everyday use and being extensively worked on Sevens were already uncommon and most owners worked alone. Staton Abbey was about the only book commonly available in regular bookshops, and Williams in technical shops. The existance of the UK Clubs and activity was in the main known only to the competition minded.

My recent observations of other cars are limited to those very few and usually same cars which attend VAR and public displays which I chance to attend. So far I have only noticed upturned pre Girling levers! One RN car has a system of rods and a hinge in place of the cables.

I am curious to learn how others have arranged rear cables on stock height high chassis cars adapted to semi Girlings please. Is the brass eye retained? Some alternative guide constructed? Cable over or under? Cam spindle where? Etc

Bob Culver

Location: Auckland

Tony Press

That is why the Sports car now has a removable panel in the firewall - a one gallon finned alloy sump is the very devil to fit (with the gearbox attached)in that small tapering space at the front of the chassis.

Tony.

Location: Shropshire

Bob,
Did you ever get any definite answers to your questions? I have just obtained a semi-Girling rear axle for my '32 RN saloon and have been looking at the best way to fit it.
I found myself asking all the same questions, so I'd be very grateful to know what you found out.
Thanks,
Roger

Location: Dorset UK

Beware the Girling rear axle I've just rebuilt had both brake cams stamped RO but they were not the same, one should have been stamped RN.

Hi Roger

Sorry, as with many other tech questions I have asked, no responses Possibly seen as intellectual property. You are the first to even acknowledge the quandrary!

Others seem to have successfully retained the underneath position.

As previous with high chassis cars any alignments a compromise. If for no other reason than that the cable is displaced laterally some revised guide seems ideal. I did not fit, the cable runs straight and loose and some pedal movement apparent braking on bumps. To use available cables I made up fork and blade yolk to extend an inch or so. As well as the cam, the variables available also include the direction of the cotter.

If early axle is being adapted the backplate angular position can be chosen to best suit.

And to state the obvious, any pondering needs be done with weight on the axle.

Am also still curious to know the experience of others!

Location: Auckland, NZ

Bob,

Thanks for your quick reply. I shall let you know how I eventually resolve,the issues. I enjoy a challenge!

Roger

Location: Dorset UK

Dave,

Have you fitted a late semi- Girling D- axle to an RN? How did you resolve the cable run and lever position issues?

Thanks,
Roger

Location: Dorset UK

Hi Roger, the Girling braked axle I've just rebuilt was for a friend. However many years ago I did fit a Girling braked axle to an RN and going from memory I think I turned the back plates through 180 degrees to put the brake cam near to same position as it is on the RN banjo axle You can't get it in exactly the same position without re drilling the back plate. I used the short RN brake levers with the ball end pointing up to get the ball in a similar position to the RN. What I can't remember is whether I had to swap the brake cams so that with the brake on the angle between the brake lever and cable is slightly less than 90 degrees. The cable run is then basically unchanged. Sorry I can't be more specific it was 45 years ago.

Redrilling the backplate increases the options, but none of the cams may then suit. With a lathe, and without milling, it is not a major exercise to turn and file from an old axle. Old cams often have bent shafts so were not hard. Can make oversize and save the cost of a new bush! (My father used to turn the early stop pegs from a Model T axle.)

Location: Auckland, NZ

Roger,

happy to discuss the issues I encountered on fitting such a system to a SWB car 01419428037.

I presume as the spring flattens it not only moves in a radius but uncurls slightly. With an under axle path the cable will lengthen somewhat more than a straight leaf spring, approaching the ideal. The almost direct original pre semi Girling routes would seem to not so effectievly match the axle movement, so perhaps best not copied.

Location: Auckland, NZ

Roger,

good to speak with you yesterday.

As mentioned, in discussion with Dave Mann last week I remembered that my Ulster is fitted with Semi Girling all round and has been so since 1990. They work very well indeed and I was able to photograph the setup for you today.

Dark pictures I am afraid but I can tell you that the backplates have been rotated 90° and I think that the cams (and levers?) may have been swapped from side to side. The cable runs well below the spring on this set up and comes through its original brass eyelet/guide on the end of the chassis crossmember.

Very many thanks to Ruairidh, Dave and Bob for your help with this project. It looks from the Ulster pics that the cable run will be straightforward with the levers at the bottom.

I must apologise for the delay in responding. I am suffering with frustrating internet problems that BT/Openreach seem incapable of fixing. An Austin Seven is far easier to fix!

When I have finished the conversion on my RN, I shall post pics and any additional useful info on this forum.

Cheers, everyone!
Roger

Location: Dorset UK

Location: North Yorkshire

Hello, me again, same problem!

I am getting to the assembly stage of the overhauled axles with Girling brakes that I am going to fit to my RN.

Both brake cams from the rear axle were unmarked, and having taken on board the comments on this forum about the importance of having the right cam in the right place, I bought a new pair of marked cams.

When I came to assemble the brakes, I could not achieve the lever angle shown in Ruairidh's photo of 8.10.16. The angle was more like in his photo of 3.7.14 earlier in the thread.

I wondered if the back plates are the same for both front and back brakes.

And then I noticed that the old unmarked cams were the same as the (marked) ones for the front brakes, and when these were fitted to the rear brakes the levers looked much more like the 8.10.16 photo.

And, having thought a bit more about this, the backplates & levers in the 8.10.16 photo are in the same orientation as the fronts are on a Girling-equipped Ruby etc..

So today's questions are:

1. Are the front and rear backplates different?

2. Is it possible that, in the 8.10.16 photo, FRONT cams have been fitted into the REAR brakes?

Gentlemen, as usual your comments and advice will be greatly appreciated.

Roger

Location: Dorset UK

The back plates are universal front and rear. The 8.10.16 picture shows back plates that have been rotated 90 degrees from std, so as Ruairidh intimated they will not have the std cams in order to operate in this position. The most likely combination are front cams with the sides swapped i.e. FN in place of RO and FO in place of RN
The 3.6.14 picture is of a rear set up with the back plate in the std position.

Location: Auckland NZ

Just to muddy the waters, I've just rebuild a 1936 rear axle for a friend, everything was dismantled and put in one of two containers which I marked NS & OS. On cleaning up the parts the brake cams were OK but both were stamped RNS and they were not the same.

Avid readers of this column will recall that I am fitting semi-Girling braked axles to my RN.

I have now overhauled the axles and fitted them to the car. The front brakes seem fine, except that the front brake rope isn't long enough so I shall order an adjustable one.

However, there is a problem with the rear brakes. The brake levers lean forward by a few degrees, whereas they should lean rearward as in Ruairidh's photo, so they don't exceed 90 degrees when fully on. I am using Girling front levers on the back so I can use the original adjustable ball-ended ropes, but I don't think that should contribute to this problem.

I removed the cams for further inspection. I had thought that I had front cams in the rear brakes as there is no way rear Girling cams will work for this conversion. However, on inspection, they don't look right to me. Neither is marked FN or FO. Both cams are identical with the cotter notches at right angles to the cam flat, whereas those in the Seven Workshop photos are at different angles to each other.

Question 1: Is it likely that I have some remanufactured cams, maybe for some other non-A7 application? And that a pair of correct front cams should solve my problem?



I have noted the comment on this Forum that long levers can contribute to long pedal travel. I don't mind that, as long as there is a bit of clearance between the pedal and floor when braking hard, although a higher pedal would give greater peace of mind.

Question 2: Can anyone advise just how much pedal travel difference there is between long vs short levers? Also, what would be the likely result of fitting RN (short) ball levers front and back to the semi-Girling brakes?

I am aware, of course, that mixing lever lengths on the same car doesn't work, and short levers will mean higher pedal pressures.

Happy New Year to everyone and thanks in advance for your advice.

Roger

Location: Dorset UK

Roger,

Since your initial post I have, coincidently, had to work on an uncoupled car fitted with Girling back plates.

After a reasonable amount of head scratching and trial with different setups the following on the rear axle is working very well indeed.

Rotate back plates through 90 degrees so that the adjusters are at the top on both sides.

Use front brake cams but swap sides (i.e. F/O should be fitted to R/N and F/N should be fitted to R/O).

Correct rear Girling brake arms and fork to fork adjustable brake cables fitted with front (but swapped side for side) brake lever return springs used.

If you feel you are out of pedal you could fit a later Ruby type with long(er) removable pedal.


----------------

On your car in addition to the front cams I would also fit the correct rear brake levers as these are shorter than the front levers you have at present. You will need to change the brake cables also.

The uncoupled car I worked on, short Austin levers were fitted to the Girling front axle/brake setup. I would not reccomend this on your car and would suggest you use the 1935/6 type brake lever used with the offset Austin brakes.

If you would like to chat about anything email me your phone number and I will ring you back.

Many thanks for your fast reply, Ruairidh. If I am still having difficulty when I have fitted the new cams and brake rope, I shall call you as you suggest.

I was heartened to find a posting by Reckless Rat a while ago in which he submitted a photo of wrong cams just like the ones I have. I am mystified what they are for, but no doubt the Girling equipment was used on other British cars with differing cam requirements,

In the meantime, as I have fitted Ruby brakes and axles complete, it is logical to me that they should work.

Why fit different levers from Ruby standard? Or are the cross shaft lever lengths different?

So I am puzzled as to why you suggest Austin 1936 ball levers on the front as both they and the Girling front levers are 2 3/8" ?

I have not got a pair of semi-Girling rear levers (2 1/4") which is why I used the Girling fronts (2 3/8") - I suppose that 1/8" might make all the difference between a good brake and a weak one . . . ?

My lever length info is drawn from this useful website: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/speedex/index_files/Page2288.htm

Thanks,
Roger

Location: Dorset UK

Hi Roger,

My offer to discuss any questions on the phone still stands. Email me your number and I will happily call you back.