This may be a stupid suggestion but is the "kit-converted vehicles" route rather than the "reconstructed classic vehicles" a solution to at least keeping an age related plate?

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/kitconverted-vehicles

(Sorry, but I'm unable to make the address a hyperlink)

Location: Oxfordshire

Hi All
My special was registered in November 2013. I can't remember the form Hedd😞
Is the current tightening of rules retrospective? If so a great many cars will be off the road!
Howard

Location: Mid Wales

not wishing to derail the thread .. but what do you do when you do have a 'special', but it has the original number plate, matching chassis number, all on a V5C *but* it still has 'saloon' not 'sport' as body type (or something) ?
is it a case of let sleeping dogs lie, as sending the V5C off for a change to body type could all go horribly wrong?
thanks

Location: United Kingdom

Where's the FBHVC when it's needed? Surely this is just the sort of stupid legislation that the FBHVC was set up to deal with?
Meanwhile, here are a couple of suggestions: Salvage one of the derelict specials that seem to crop up on eBay regularly, and use the body as a temporary fit on your special in order to get it registered. Then the body can be removed, hired out or sold on to another deserving cause! This solution depends on how a '25 year old' body can be authenticated...
Alternatively, use an original Austin body - box saloon or Ruby - which is beyond economic repair; all you need is the bulkhead, floor and seats and you have an American-style Speedster. Nobody has said the 'body' has to be pretty, practical or even complete! Again, the body can be passed on to another special builder once the registration process has been completed

Location: Sherwood Forest

A fear point Mike,

I have an Ulster body here that it 40+years old and has never been fitted. But how is its age determined.

Tony

Location: Leics

What's so frustrating and annoying is that those of us (the vast majority, I'm sure) who want to do things legally have so many obstacles to overcome in order to register a car, when at the same time you don't have to look very hard to spot plenty of examples of registrations having been sold off cars that clearly don't stand a cat in Hell's chance of passing the MOT required to effect a transfer.

Location: Herefordshire, with an E not a T

In hindsight, the makers of new/replacement bodies should have been stamping them with a number.

Our 'Ulster' has an early Rolt body which I collected from Stuart in 1973.

Cash, no receipt, no number, no worries (at the time!)

I cannot help thinking that the DVLA will obtain a financial bonus with the new regulations by hanging on to the dwindling supply of age-related type numbers to be sold on via their registration number sales department for large sums of cash. Or am I just being a little bitter?
Dave

Location: Sheffield

Ironically, if we were to rebuild the Ulsteroid on a different chassis we can prove that the GRP body is over 25 years old. Which leads me into all sorts of naughty ideas.....

Location: Devon

Sounds like a good money spinner: hire it out at £500 a time to all the budding special builders out there

Location: Sherwood Forest

Late last year I had my numberplate reissued to me on the basis of an RF60 where the chassis number section actually showed a body number instead. Obviously the body was long gone but the DVLA were happy to give me back the plate once it had been established that the main components were all 1935-ish, apart from the engine. The new V5 shows the chassis number that was stamped on the car. The body is all new-build. It seems I got lucky?

The crux of the matter is if this is an isolated occurrence?, or a blanket problem?.

If its a one off, it could be put down to a number of things.

For example on the built up vehicle form (V627) you note that you have a 'new body' in the table against Chassis/bodyshell, and Mr DVLA man thinks you've re-shelled the vehicle. Instant Q plate. Refer to the kit built vehicle documents for the points system, you must have 8 points, 5 of which must come from the original chassis/bodyshell/

Whearas you put Original component. Austin Manufacture circa Autumn 1929 chassis number XXXXX. He doesnt think this.

Clearly if it is a blanket problem then the FBVHC need to take heed.

My experience of the DVLA is even when they are at fault, they are very unlikely to accept it. The appeals procedure is lip service.

Perhaps bodywork should be referred to as 'Coachwork' when dealing with the DVLA?.

It seems to me that Hedd makes very valid points. I have no idea how Malcolm might extricate himself from the tangle which DVLA has created for him but, is this a one off error by a single person incapable of lateral thought (at DVLA I mean, I am aware that Malcolm is no fool!)or is it a "jobsworth" interpretation of some revised guidelines likely to be repeated by DVLA in it's entirety from now on until someone changes the guidelines???

Ian Mc

Location: Shropshire

This has been confirmed as a concious change of the way the pre-existing rules have been interpreted by the DVLA and not a one-off mistake Ian.

Steve

Location: North Yorkshire

The offending bit of text is copied below.

Get an age-related registration number

DVLA can only recognise your vehicle as a reconstructed classic vehicle if it meets certain criteria. It must be:

built from genuine period components from more than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification as the original vehicle
a true reflection of the marque

The appropriate vehicle owners’ club for the vehicle type (‘marque’) must inspect the vehicle and confirm in writing that it:

has been inspected
is a true reflection of the marque
is comprised of genuine period components all over 25 years old

They must also give manufacture dates for the major components.

DVLA will assign an age-related registration number to the vehicle based on the youngest component used.
New or replica parts

Your vehicle won’t get an age-related registration number if it includes new or replica parts. DVLA will give your vehicle a ‘Q’ prefix registration number. Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.

It would seem that avoiding the words "Replica" and "New" are vital. Maybe incorporating a few bits of an old body can make it a restored body?

Location: Devon

So if you build up the engine with a new pheonix crank? Or you fit new brake drums? New wheel rims? New radiator/surround? Most barn finds with no documentation could conceivably end up with all the above brand new parts as well as more......bearings, tyres etc etc....
Can of worms springs to mind...
The only slightly upbeat note is that barn finds with no v5 may come down in price as it will be difficult to turn them into specials.
I sincerely hope that something can be done for those genuine special builders who find themselves in a worrying situation here, as a special builder myself you have my very best real sympathies.
Steve.
RIP SPECIAL BUILDING.

Location: South East Cornwall

Another interesting thought:

I would interpret this that the DVLA are inviting/requiring the owner to commit fraud by destroying the vehicle's original identity

Location: Sherwood Forest

I was going to say "could be a realy good time to see where your MP stands on all this sh-one-t" but, 1) he may not be re-elected, 2) he won't have a clue what you're talking about, 3) he'd lie anyway.

Ian Mc.

Location: Shropshire

Being a trader myself,

I've got to bring this one up.

If all this pushes people away from specials and replicas.

That's a lot of new parts that will no longer be sold, and have no reason to be produced.

Wich will be a knock on for the rest of Austin 7 owners.

Location: Leics

Clearly if this stops cars being restored then we'll all lose out (and the body on a separate chassis car is not an integral part - they were swapped in period and the more expensive cars were sold by the maker as a chassis.)
Two things come to mind.
Firstly what on earth is the FBHVC doing? I've asked them this very questions and will report back.
Secondly DVLA is an agency of the Department for Transport, which is accountable to MP's. DVLA frequently behaves as if it owns the law and it doesn't . If anyone lives in a marginal seat we have a unique opportunity over the next 6 weeks to apply pressure. Ask the leading contenders, educate them, get them to understand that DVLA has acted in a crude and daft way. Stop bogus Bugattis that are 100% new - fine, but that is not what they are doing here.

Sadly I live in an area where my vote has never stood a chance of counting either way but if you're lucky enough to have a vote that might make a difference, make a difference.

I have come up with an analogy which might help explain the situation to those without an understanding of pre war cars.

"A vintage car is a little like a thatched cottage, whilst the structure can be maintained, the bit on top sometimes has to be renewed."

I guess this might well be refined a little, but maybe it will set minds working.

Stuart

Location: Devon

Now Mr Tony and Mr Charles P are getting also to root of problem – that DVLA is big filing cabinet and must be doing filing only and that FBHVC is abdicating from responsibilities by doing nothing.
Bugatti that is not Bugatti, Riley with 2 seats missing, Austin with sporty body; these are not important issue now. First FBHVC must make coup and be taking control.
Thank you.

I can see in a small way the DVLA side in this, if there is a worry of new bugattis being registered as old.

The Austin 7 is in a similar position. Literally every part can be bought new, instead of restoring old parts.

The problem with this is, you need stations all over the country were vehicles can be checked that new cars are not being passed off as vintage cars.

Now call me stooped, but didn't they get rid of all the VRO checking stations.

Location: Leics

I've sent an email to Mike Burgess (Austin Seven Owners Club DVLA Representative) asking for guidance on this as I am getting to the point where I want to apply for an age related number for the special I’m building. Trouble is, with a brand spanking new Rod Yates body on my special it, doesn't look like I will be able to get one.... The thought of a "Q" plate on it just doesn't thrill me at all...

Will feedback if/when I get a reply.

I am purposely building my current special to be as authentic as I can get it but it's full of "new" parts courtesy of our cherished suppliers where the original part was worn, beyond repair or missing..... Most of these new parts are not even visible (except the body of course lol) as they are buried inside engines, wheels hubs, gearboxes etc..

Must admit, I have recently been thinking of my next Austin Seven project but am now having a re-think (I have access to a couple of rough barn finds that have no paperwork etc. via my father).. Obviously the DVLA have nothing better to do than take an oversized sledge hammer to crack a peanut sized problem…

Email sent to the FBHVC too. Will feedback any reply..

Location: Horsham, W Sussex

FBVHC organised a successful petition regarding the licence requirements for three-wheelers. Perhaps they could repeat this on this topic. If the policy continues it is likely to have serious repercussions on the vintage restoration business sector which is growing and providing work .training and passing on traditional craft skills to a new generation.Write to them and your MP!

Location: Ripon N. Yorks

Friends, please remember that this is an entirely open forum that anyone in the world can access.

Sharing the specifics of your car is not only of interest to Seveners but the DVLA who trawl sites like this, your best intentions, and transparent honesty, could be your downfall at the end of day.

For your own sake please consider what you share publicly on this matter carefully.

Robbie, if I've followed this correctly, I think that the issue is whether it will be possible to register a special or a replica AT ALL if it's been built to a broadly pre-war specification.

The type of index mark issued is a different subject. There are very few "age-related" registrations now available that would be appropriate for a pre-war car and I understand that these are only issued to 1930 and earlier vehicles.

Those being issued to post-1930 vehicles are of three-digit, three-letter format (usually full of Ws, Xs and Ys) and are ones that would have been issued in the early sixties had the year suffix not been introduced in 1963. To me, they look as incongruous on an Austin Seven as a "Q" plate.

Location: Herefordshire, with an E not a T

A nice analogy.
If you go to a reclamation yard or two and collect together a load of beams, some floorboards, some bricks you can create a house. Even if you top it off with a new thatched roof it's still a new house.
However if you rebuild a property that has existed for years and is disheveled and tumbledown you have restored a 16th century house.

DVLA have missed that important distinction.

Well no, not quite, Tony.

No-one is yet producing brand new Austin Seven chassis frames, are they? Unlike Bugattis, Frazer Nashes, Alfa Romeos and Delahayes, which are being recreated around entirely 21st Century frames (and engines, gearboxes and axles in some cases). We are all getting hot under the collar here because DVLA is apparently requiring the defacing of original vehicle identities which can be accurately dated (which action is a criminal offence!) just because a non-structural component is being replaced.

If we ever get into the realms of building specials around brand new un-numbered chassis frames with no historical provenance, then I am quite prepared to accept, and indeed defend, the DVLA's stance, but until that time I will support every effort to get the present situation resolved.

Location: Sherwood Forest

Spot on Mike..

Location: Horsham

And I think I should add, I agree with Martin Prior: this is not about the allocation of age-related plates. Suitable registration numbers are a finite commodity which is rapidly disappearing, which is why the sixties-style numbers-before-letters are now being issued to post-1930 vehicles. The time will come, maybe quite soon, when these too will be used up, and maybe 1963 A-prefix numbers will have to be allocated.

What I object to is the unnecessary defacing of original chassis numbers and the consequent requirement for rebuilt vehicles to acquire an inapproriate new identity and to meet unrealistic modern construction and safety requirements. These are NOT new vehicles - replicas, clones, or whatever you like to call them - we are talking about, these are at worst reconstructions built around original components which can be accurately dated.

We have not yet reached the Bugatti stage where the components from one original vehicle can be distributed to create half a dozen 'original' vehicles, nor are we talking about brand-new Pur Sang 'Alfa Romeos' or 'Bugattis' which have been registered as genuine Alfa Romeos or Bugattis of the 1920s or 1930s.

Location: Sherwood Forest

In stark contrast to this thread, I'm amazed at how relatively easy it appears to be to get original registration marks re-issued to vintage aircraft defunct or exported for decades, or even ones totally reconstructed, nominally using a few fragments of ancient wreckage.

Maybe the CAA should look after the licensing of old cars!

Location: Herefordshire, with an E not a T

The most important point that some of you dont seem to have got yet is the requirement for an IVA test.
A special built using authentic parts and techniques just will not ever in a month of Sundays pass this very strictly enforced and enacted test.
The issue of a less than pretty number plate really is the least of your worries. Without the ability to pass IVA our specials will be off road or rally field exhibits only.
And let's not forget our own type of people have contributed to this with all the dubious reconstructions and modern built Bugattis et al.
We are potentially headed for a problem and the FBHVC need to start making the case to DVLA particularly regarding the fact that we are using original chassis with numbers which therefore already exist as vehicles.
I'm afraid this has been coming for a while, since the kit car world was forced to behave itself with SVA and now IVA. it was a matter of time before dodgy recreations were hit, with us being innocent victims in the crossfire. Just wait till they go after the bikers with their custom bikes a lot of which have rather dubious identites on new custom frames etc etc.
Lets hope FBHVC have some balls and get it sorted.
Steve (former special builder).

Location: South East Cornwall

On careful reading of the DVLA website the crucial form is V627/1
which can be found here.
It lists the major components they want answers for and states:
"Chassis/bodyshell" - top of the column has the words "delete as appropriate".
Surely in our case the chassis and its date and number are required and the word bodyshell is deleted.
You also need all the information to register a new vehicle and an inspection report from your A7 club DVLA representative.
Newer monocoque vehicles would delete chassis and quote body id.

IMHO Big end has said all that needs to be said.

Location: Ripon N. Yorks

I've just spoken with the DVLA rep for the London owners club and Mike confirms what DavidK states above. There should be no problem getting an age related plate for an Austin seven special as long as you have the major components (those being chassis, axles, engine, gearbox etc.) in place. The body is not considered in this criteria and Mike made mention of the "delete as appropriate" on form V627/1.

Mike did say he had a hiccup recently when processing an age related number but this was down to the dept he was dealing with in the DVLA (they have change who looks after the issuance of age related numbers) didnt know what they were doing. This has been successfully resolved and Mike even received an apologetic letter from the DVLA!

As soon as I get the body for my special I will be in touch with Mike again to start the process. Will feedback on here at that time..

Location: Horsham

Further to the reply I got above I've just received this from the FBHVC...

Dear Robbie,

Thank you for your email to our Secretary which has been passed to me.

We are fully aware of the current situation with applications for age related registrations for cars with a chassis where the body has been replaced and at the present time your fears are, unfortunately, well founded. We have raised this matter with DVLA as we consider that the stance they are taking is unrealistic. This will be progressed further at a forthcoming meeting. Meanwhile there is little advice that we can offer but we will, of course, keep our members fully informed of any changes.

Are you happy for us to use the information you have given us, but not your name, as an example of the problems we foresee if DVLA stick to their present approach?

Regards,

Ian Edmunds
DVLA Liaison
FBHVC

I'm now in a quandary as to let them use the details of my car or not. Suppose it can't hurt?

Location: Horsham, West Sussex

I've had a very similar response from the FBHVC but again with no detail of what they are actually doing or what the logic of their argument against DVLA's current stance might be.

It also suggests that club DVLA reps aren't exactly up to speed on this.


Charles

Charles

Agreed. I have sent the FBHVC response to Mike (the DVLA rep for the London Owners club) so we will see what he thinks.. When I spoke with him yesterday I got the impression he had been successful in getting age related plates recently but maybe I was mistaken...

I will discuss with Mr Edmunds a little more and feedback..

Location: Horsham

I feel there is a lot of confusion above. looking on DVLA website it seems they have different procedures for 'rebuilt cars' and for 'radically altered, and for 'reconstructed classic' and for 'old' vehicles.

They seem to interpret 'reconstructed classic' to be a coming together of lots of old components to create a fresh vehicle. In that case it seems reasonable that they do not allow new components.

If we are trying to register an 'old vehicle' then I think a few new components are allowed.

There is confusion regarding terms such as 'rebuilt' (do they mean re-assembled?) And what does 're-constructed' mean?

Also what is a component? And what is a major component. I would interpret a petrol pump as a component, a new diaphragm as a part, and an engine as a major component.

In another section they make it clear that any car given a Q plate will need an IVA test, and I think that requires such things as anti-lock brakes!

I give up! Have spent the last 3/4 hour trying to get a post past the blinking spam filter, and failed!

Father has written to dvla in his capacity as an A7 verifier.

Location: Devon