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Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".
The free road tax and no road tax is a red herring. Nothing whatsoever to do with the DVLA situation.
The problem is that the environmental lobby are effecting government policy of lots of issues. Transport being a notable issue.
London currently has an emissions zone, how long is it until other large conurbations have similar? Not long I expect. They are already common in Europe.
The legislation created to police these is defined against the manufacturers stated emissions (what the european wide Vehicle Type approval is all about).
In essence the legislation is designed to keep older vehicles out of London, older vehicles being considered more damaging to the environment. This is mirrored in the Vehicle Excise Duty policy, older vehicles are taxed more than younger ones, the rates for modern cars are based on emissions. That said Historic Vehicles excepted.
Make no mistake it is current government and European policy to discourage the use of older vehicles, and encourage the use of modern ones. This it is said is about emissions, a cynic may well suggest it has a lot to do with the larger European car manufacturer lobby also!. The why isnt really important to me, but the how is.
There is a clear understanding and will both by the UK government and Europe to exempt historic vehicles from much of this legislation, the stumbling block seems to be the definition of what is a 'historic vehicle'.
FIVA http://www.fiva.org/site/en/ and in the UK the FBHVC http://www.fbhvc.co.uk/ have done a lot of work on gaining a european wide accepted definition, based on the Charter of Turin. I believe the current accepted definition is:
‘vehicle of historic interest’ means any vehicle which is considered to be historic by the Member State of registration or one of its appointed authorising bodies and which fulfils all the following conditions:
– It was manufactured or registered for the first time at least 30 years ago;
– Its specific type, as defined by the relevant legal acts of the Union on type approval, is no longer in production;
– It is preserved and maintained in a historically correct condition, and therefore has not undergone major changes in its technical characteristics.
There are lots of threads on various discussion groups, but it seems the two main hangups people have with this definition is with dates and modifications, with some getting hung up about daily use.
Dates, the long and short of it is that somewhere someone needs a cut off, yes this means a motor built 30 seconds before the cut off is historic, and one built 31 second later isn't, but hey ho, thats life. The rolling 30 year definition negates this in anycase (though this is sadly not mirrored in our UK DVLA rules - it seems from reading above the UK governement wants the income!)
modifications, the charter suggests period mods are fine, but on the other end of the scale when you make it into something it never was, or put a modern engine in it it isn't.
Looking at the whole picture, and ignoring the minority groups who think it should still be ok to do as they please and thus oppose FIVA, the FBHVC. We need to understand that those organisations are looking after the interests of historic vehicle owners by agreeing a definition and by ensuring that exemptions are in place.
Those who want to continue as they always have need to consider the reality, is your ford Zetek powered Lotus Elan really a Historic Vehicle?. Is your newly built bodied Austin 7 Special? The answer is probably NO, they are not. Certainly by the definition above. Can anyone even suggest a historic definition that would include for these?
Going forward, I expect that what has gone on to vehicles in the past will no longer be possible and still use the vehicle on the highway. In 10 years time you may well still be able to build a new special but you will not be able to take it on the road because all the exemptions for historic vehicles will not apply. And the type approval rules for new vehicles will similarly bar you.
If truth be known we are not far away from that now.
Without a definition and without exemptions we will be legislated off the road by the environmental lobby.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
But Steve, don't forget that until quite recently we WERE all paying tax - I don't recall droves of owners abandoning their hobby because of it.
Out of interest, why £230? Doesn't an older "modern" 750cc pays £145?
Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".
I do not.
If it is the plan to use the historic vehicle class as a weapon to use to rid us from the roads. Why are they not rolling the dates? And why has it not yet happened?
The free tax dates from John Majors days, it is quite a conspiracy theory to suggest that this government is going to use it against us. Blairs red torys never did, nor did this lot when imposed upon by the half loony lib dems. I can't see it somehow.
Our bargaining position is the amount of money we spend in the economy. Something the current lot will take heed of.
Location: N W Kent
In truth It turns out I wasn't comparing engine size like for like, I was thinking of an average 15 to 20 year old 1600cc car as an example because I happened to know of a car in that category ie mid sized engine range - big enough to cost a bit more in terms of emissions.
I accept that that it turns out I was talking a bit out of the top of my head!
I was thinking that a lot of old car insurance policies require that you must have a 'modern' as an everyday car with our old Austins being occasional use only - I wasn't thinking of the lower Tax band of £145 which would be less onerous.
Although I don't think paying road fund license will give us any more sway with
government or the DVLA.
Now taking foot out of mouth......
Steve V.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Location: Dorset
If it became too costly for SGS they would probably just walk away - at least that's what's happened with outsourcing in the NHS.
Steve V
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Historic vehicles are not simply ‘old’ vehicles
http://www.classicandsportscar.com/forum/classic-chat/fiva-calls-to-separate-old-cars-from-historic-cars-%E2%80%93-have-your-say-here
Location: East Sussex
Location: Buxted
As someone who is trying to rebuild/restore a 1925 car
This topic is causing a great deal of uncertainty to the Aysti 7
Community . The re-invention of Austin Sevens has been as much a part of the heritage
left by Herbert, for example all the period coach builders and the all the "special" builders
Who kept so many of these cars on the road, often on a budget in the 1950's and 60's for us and the general public to enjoy now.
How can folk who are restoring ancient buses and trucks, all with their coach built bodies,
Cope with any new draconian regime. So if you make a cab from scratch, then you cannot get a V5C.
In period many coach built cars had their bodies exchanged
Given that A7 bodies cost only £7? New at the factory And many Rolls Royce cars
Were regularly given new bodies in the 1930's and 40's.
Anyone know how the Commercisl Clubs view this Saga?
Regards
Bill
Location: Scottish Borders
I agree Bill, At one time Rolls Royce only sold a rolling chassis, so there is no defined type of body for them, as with many commercial vehicles, in fact many company's made rolling chassis available to coachbuilders. The only important part of a vehicle like this is the driving chassis, that is the bit that is drivable and the part that is registered. If we take a newly made body and stick a box section chassis under it and fit a draw bar is not a motor car its trailer put it on an original chassis and it a motor vehicle and subject to all the relevant laws that go with it.
Location: Pembrokeshire
Location: East Sussex
No, it's for a 1950s Renault Dauphine, so it's three numbers, three letters.
I do wonder whether DVLA are running out of numbers, and that's an ulterior motive for the present difficulties!
Here's an interesting one to consider with relation to this thread- Apparently has a historic registration but gives few details further than that as to what it's actually registered as. Either way, the description of "90% new parts" would suggest that it doesn't really qualify..... I suspect this is a very expensive can of worms! (also I'm no fan of hot rods, so I'm automatically suspicious!)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Ratrod-Hotrod-Austin-7-Morris-V8-LSD-Mustang-Modified-New-Retro-V5-PX-/121926924288?hash=item1c63693800:g:kY0AAOSwoudW6ekV
Location: Herefordshire
You can bet your sweet patootie that the V5C doesn't reflect the vehicles current status!
Steve V.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".
So they'll accept a vehicle with so little left of the original that it's barely recognizable to keep a an age related plate but won't accept a rebodied vehicle with all original chassis and mechanics?
Plus seemingly they're now picking and choosing who to harass or not, regardless of a vehicles legitimacy?
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Location: Ripon
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
I have to say Duncan, I totally disagree with you on that point. I think something which is BLATANTLY taking the mick should be reported. It might make life harder for the rest of us, it might not. Just letting people do what they want won't solve the problem either, it'll just perpetuate it and this issue will never go away.
Location: Herefordshire
I won't win any friends for saying so, but I don't think "hot rods" like this cobbled together heap of crap should be considered as a legitimate vehicle - let alone an historic one. Unless a hybrid vehicle meets modern standards of road worthiness (which it likely never will) it should be kept off the road. It is not an old car; it is a new car built from old parts. Motor manufacturers have to meet certain standards and mixing disparate parts like this is just stupid.
Location: Derby
I think it does raise another point worth making-This is a potentially very powerful, handbuilt missile. The idea of it being considered MOT exempt terrifies me! Who knows how well done the work actually is. To be honest I don't agree with MOT exemption on any car, but especially so in cases like this.
And what about the person who buys it? They could potentially spend £16+K on something that is very dodgy indeed. If there was latterly a problem, the seller (who doesn't appear to be a motor dealer) could wash their hands of it. If it's reported, then that could save someone a lot of money and a lot of trouble.
Location: Herefordshire
Location: Ripon
Well said Ray!
Duncan, While I agree almost entirely with your most recent post, I totally disagree with your original point. The current "nightmare" has, I gather, been brought about by the failure of certain clubs and individuals to responsibly self-regulate their activities.
Surely it's better for "US" collectively to distance ourselves from gross abuses by reporting them, than to wait for their inevitable discovery by the authorities?
Why should the the rest of us be dragged down by a bunch of arseholes who, for whatever reason, operate way, way outside the rules?
Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".
Location: East Sussex
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Location: East Sussex
Hang on-Isn't what you've just described EXACTLY the practice that is causing the hassle for us now?!
Location: Herefordshire
Location: East Sussex
Location: East Sussex
I have a soft spot for replicas especially where the builder has paid close attention to detail. Whether or not they should be treated in exactly the same way as cars with a genuine pedigree is a moot point. To my mind, although they are not historic vehicles they probably deserve to be recognised by the authorities as a special case and fall into a category of their own with similar dispensations to those enjoyed by genuine historic vehicles.
I think I would argue that where a vehicle is constructed with no attempt made to follow in the spirit of an original (historic) design but reflects the builder's imagination and flair; being essentially a 'hot rod' or 'street rod' of some kind, then it should be treated differently. Where the line should be drawn between these cars and 'specials' is not something that I feel sufficiently confident to comment on.
Location: Derby
Liam, what baffled me was your comment that "DVLA rules allow this and it is legitimate".
Almost all traditional Austin Seven projects could comply with those rules as virtually all of them were mechanically of pre-war origin and re-bodying an old chassis was perfectly OK.
As far as I'm aware, DVLA rules have never allowed new, or substantially new-build cars to be registered as "historic" vehicles.
However, if what I've read on this thread is true, certain clubs and individuals have been abusing the system on an industrial scale and we are all now being punished for their activities.
A 2010 new-build with 2010 on the V5 is a replica. A 2010 new-build with 1930 on the V5 is a fake and should be treated as such. I don't care whether there are ten thousand of them out there!
Location: Herefordshire, with an "E", not a "T".
FBHVC and DVLA have you been communicating or are we forever in this same old loop? A progress report would be very welcome. Has anyone read "The Castle " by Franz Kafka? It's decades since I read it but I seem to remember it was about a few peasants being controlled by a massive number of bureaucrats based in the castle on the hill where the bureaucrats were incapable of making any decision. Sounds familiar........
Dave.
Location: Sheffield
Forum members may be interested to know what the seller of the hot rod has to say about the V5c....
And I quote
" The logbook has no other information on it other than 'morris', no model or anything else on there (ideal hotrod book). Think I'm the second owner on the v5, need to pull it out to double check. It's a new v5c so no worries with it needing a check like some of the older style log books. It's obviously an mot and tax exempt book. I know a lot of owners that run their rods in this way so it's the route I was taking, but insuring it with everything disclosed. Reg is transferable too, so worth a bit!. "
Location: Herefordshire
I have just been reading the latest newsletter from FBHVC (issue 2/2016) and note there is absolutely zero progress from the DVLA on age-related registration. It is on FBHVC website for those who are interested.
Dave
Location: Sheffield
It is possible we may be seeing some light at the end of the tunnel.
Our Authentication Officer here at the PWA7C has received a communication from the Kits & Rebuilds section of the DVLA requesting advice on types of coachwork fitted to Sevens - specifically Ulsters - and asking whether coachwork built bodies were the " norm ". Further questions centred around whether a new body could be representative of the marque and was a Seven designed to be fitted with a sports body.
Needless to say our Officer gave him chapter and verse, together with scans of relevant information and photographs; so much so that the DVLA probably now know as much as we do about Sevens!!
Let us hope this is the first step in a way forward.
Chris - Chair, PWA7C Limited
Location: Melton Mowbray
Chris, does this mean that someone at DVLA is actually interested in keeping our heritage alive? I do hope so, at least there is recognition of our concerns.
Location: Piddle Valley
Hi Chris G,
That is sounding a positive turn of events, as they are now asking the right questions and hopefully listening with an open mind.
If they understand the principle of coach built bodies and that you could buy a 'car' consisting of a motorized running chassis from the factory and have a body fitted elsewhere it must open the way to understanding the car manufacturing scene as it used to be.
This must also assist with any change of body, be it saloon, sports or van which could happen at any time, from the day the chassis first rolled off the production line through to the present day.
It has been heartbreaking seeing people selling off there projects and cars piecemeal.
I don't want to get too excited too soon but this could be the major break through we've been waiting for!
I really hope so as we all desperately need such a boost.
Steve V.
Location: Polegate, East Sussex, United Kingdom
Thanks for the information Chris and also thanks to Peter. It sounds quite promising!
Dave.
Location: Sheffield
Location: East Sussex