I am very frustrated by the actions of the DVLA.I wanted to transfer the number from my 1938 Ruby to my favourite classic car(I know some people will be offended)
The advice I was given indicated that no MOT was required.
Then I was told this was needed.
So I put the Ruby through the test .
Then they wanted it inspected at the Testing Centre in Darlington.
At the inspection,the chassis plate was found to be missing,but the original fixing position could be clearly seen on the offside chassis rail.
They asked me to obtain a report from a Classic Car club,recognised by the DVLA.
I am a member of the North East Club For Pre War Austins NE CPWA.
The DVLA officer kindly undertook an inspection,(from the club I mean).
They verified that in his opinion the Ruby was original ,and in his expert opinion the original car,as constructed.
Despite assurances from the DVLA,that this was the final hurdle,they rang me and said they wanted more proof that the car was the actual one that rolled off the production line in 1938!
I said I would look at obtaining a Heritage certificate from the austin 7 club.
Then out of the blue I was sent a letter yesterday advising that they had reviewed my request,and had declined my request.!
The NECPWA,are as bemused as I am.
The DVLA have requested that a further form is filled in ,by the NECPWA,to verify the age of the car.However they have just discounted the earlier specialist report from the same Club!
I have lost the number,as they propose to offer an age related plate,at best,which will be non transferable.
The existing plate is personal to me and has a fairly significant commercial value.
I presume the DVLA will sell this plate through their highly profitable auctions ,if their stealth tactics are allowed to succeed.
Why are the DVLA taking this stance,after putting me through lots of hoops.
Can anyone help me,as I am very angry and frustrated.

Location: North east england

Its because it has no verifiable chassis number. End of.

Big oops on your behalf, would have been obvious with a bit of research.

Lets hope it keeps its original number now.

Thanks for the helpful response.
Almost as helpful and sympathetic as the DVLA!
I am not an expert in transferring number plates/registration numbers.
I was guided by the DVLA.
They also advised that a report from a recognised Club would be acceptable.
I think the original plate will now go to the DVLA ,unless someone can come up with a more positive answer.

Talk to you MP. Try to meet him/her rather than write. It costs nothing and he/she probably wants your vote.
Vince Leek

Location: Moonraker country

Thank you for a positive response.
I was going to write to him ,but I will go in person.
Good to think there are people out there who are helpful,and not stating what I knew!

Location: Dover

Thank you.how will I get a Heritage certificate?
Can you help in this respect?

I have to ask why? Forgive me if I am being stupid, but surly your favorite classic car has an age related plate already, it seems a shame for both cars to loose their original identity! It is an awful lot of trouble to go to for no obvious gain, plus it will adversely affect the values of both cars If you just want a personalized plate why not just buy one that has already been removed from a car from a dealer.

Location: NZ

Location: Dover

George,
Having worked for a large organisation I can imagine the scenario at the DVLA. There might have been a memo from the higher echelons telling all staff involved in vehicle registration to be wary of anyone requiring new reg on old cars currently, until the legislation was ironed out. I expect that some staff are taking their wariness to the nth degree and not letting anyone through the reg net. I sympathise with your predicament even though I am not a fan of personalised registration numbers as it seems car reg sellers are preying on that awful human condition known as vanity. This is only my opinion of course and I am sure you have your own reasons. It is a shame that you would want to remove the continuation of provenance of your A7 as once it has gone it would be very difficult to reinstate. I hope you manage to sort things out.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

It does seem rather an unfortunate coincidence that such a key item as the chassis plate has been removed, particularly on a car with a supposedly valuable registration number. Have you had the Ruby for a long time Mr. Robinson, and do you know its history? If you acquired the car, at least in part, for the personal connection with the number plate, is it possible that a misdemeanor by a previous owner is what is causing the difficulty?
I have no axe to grind here, just wonder if we are getting the whole picture.

Why?
Because without a chassis plate with correct number there is no proof that the chassis belongs to the car registration. It could have been swapped, legally or otherwise, in the past. Hedd was right, if a little blunt.

Location: Hampshire

I'm not at all surprised.

With the new regime trying to ensure that historic vehicles are what they are in order to retain their historic identity (and the original registration number is a key part of that) the DVLA is clamping down.

Sandy's box saloon lost its original registration number due to some skulduggery by the registration number robbers and the car at the time was entirely unroadworthy and didn't have an MOT...it's evident that the DVLA are aiming to put a stop to that and this is by no means the first instance, where a registration number has been withdrawn.

I'm very sad to hear your Ruby has lost its original registration number George, that's the real shame in all this, I think and sadly yours is not the first and will not be the last.

Location: Near Bicester.

George, I believe the DVLA have a points system, for original components.

The original unaltered chassis OR unaltered monocoque bodyshell
Suspension (front and back)
Axles (both)
Transmission
Steering Assembly
Engine

If it can be proved that the rest of the car is original,as seems to be the case,you may be able to retain the original reg number, though it will probably be non transferable,as it could be argued that the chassis or part of it may have been replaced at some time, hence no chassis number.

Do you have a Please Quote Car No plate on your battery box ? As the number on that ( on my sons Ruby at least ) is the same as the chassis number and may possibly help prove your case.

Location: Pembrokeshire

Would someone be good enough to explain why confiscating an apparently original reg from a car and replacing with an "age-related" one achieves anything? Is this going to be a dreaded "Q" plate or a three letter/three number affair or something else? Would the vehicle lose its "historic" status even though it is apparently composed of entirely 1930's components? If it has a "Q" plate and possibly the necessary (but completely irrelevant for a car of this age) IVA inspection is it then liable for taxing on the same basis as newer vehicles?
This is all extremely unclear at the moment.
Dave.

Location: Sheffield

Strikes me that they have applied exactly the same rule as they'd apply to my modern everyday Volvo.
If the VIN number was removed they rescind the registration number. It matters not if it's an Austin 7 with a "nice" plate or a modern Volvo with a valueless one.

Charles

I can understand where you are coming from Dave when you say it achieves nothing, if it were my decision I would allow the Ruby to retain its original number and make it non-transferable.

However, as I've said in the other DVLA thread, the actions of a few have spoilt it for all of us and the DVLA is now working to a directive that only those vehicles that are original, including their chassis number, or on later vehicles, the VIN, correspond with the historical records (nearly all of which revolve around the vehicle's registration number, when it comes to proving history.)

Anything questionable, such as George's missing chassis number will flag up an investigation by the DVLA and although the car may be considered original, the chassis accounts for five points of the eight required to retain the vehicle's original identity, so in many ways you can see their point.

I really do hope they see sense and allow George to keep the original number with the Ruby, albeit non-transferable.

Location: Near Bicester.

Are we not being a bit unfair to the DVLA? I know they can be difficult sometimes but in this case they seem to be trying to prevent a registration number being transferred from a pre war car. Isn't this just the practise that everyone has been complaining about for years?

I realise that in this instance the DVLA may unfortunately withdraw the number in question altogether but without a chassis number, from their point of view, the chassis may be a replacement. Even if the original chassis number can be established, DVLA may have it showing up on another car!

Much as we may form an attachment to a particular number, we have to remember that, in the end, Registration numbers do not belong to the owner of the car. They are allocated by the licensing authorities and remain their property to do with as they see fit. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Location: Derby

Ray,

The DVLA are simply following the rules as they stand.

no more, no less.

I rather hope the fact that the Ruby has a questionable identity means that the objective, the removal of an original number of a perfectly good car for someones vanity has failed.

Location: Near Bicester.

Thank you, Gentlemen. Not withstanding the arguments for and against the transfer of Registration numbers, this issue has highlighted a potential problem with so called club "experts" being called upon to verify the validity of a car's provenance. Whilst not wishing to question the knowledge of any particular club representative in regard to Austin 7s, it seems to me quite reasonable to have expected the absence of a chassis plate to have thwarted any attempt to establish the car's identity.

It's always easy to be wise with the benefit of hindsight but if I had been faced with this dilemma, the first place I would have gone to for advice is here; where I know my Austin Seven friends would have given me sound advice - even if it was not necessarily what I wanted to hear!

It may not be strictly legal, but I think I would have arranged for a chassis plate (if that is what was missing) to be present before submitting a report to the DVLA but then, as I have said, it is always easy to be wise after the event.

Location: Derby

Reading some of the comments above that the number does not belong to the cars owner,so how can you sell it as some people do if its not yours???confused.Ted

Location: North Yorkshire

Perhaps its just me.

But I like to check all he numbers BEFORE I part with my hard earned when buying a motor of any sort. A Vintage motor is no different.

I would also certainly do so before any dealings with the DVLA.

It makes sense, Hedd, but as you know, it's not always enough. You can have all the numbers looking right but it can still be a ringer.

Location: Derby

Location: Kent, UK

Location: North Yorkshire

I assume that you have looked for numbers as per this:-

http://a7ca.org/downloads/QuoteThisNumber.pdf

If you are sure that the original chassis plate is not on another chassis, reproduction plates are available on various sites e.g.

http://www.classic-plates.com/

Location: Oxfordshire

I was wondering along the same lines, what if the missing plate miraculously turned up on the workshop floor and was re-attached to the chassis.

Would that change things at this stage ?

Phil

Location: Penrith, Cumbria

Of course the DVLA monitor all sites like this.
Good job too it would appear.

Location: Wessex

Just one more point on the Please Quote Car No plate, All Triumph Herald type models do not have a chassis number stamped on to the chassis, they have a chassis number plate that is pop riveted to the bulkhead of the car. In the Heralds case the bulkhead is a separate component to both the chassis and the main body section. It could be said that according to their own argument about a chassis having to have a chassis number that all Triumph Herald types should be re-registered. It would seem that a president has been set with the Triumph as to the need of a car having a chassis number on the actual chassis for DVLA identification. It obviously does not. If your car has the original Please quote plate fitted that with a number that matches the chassis number on the V5C it should be good enough evidence for them of the cars ID?
Of course we all know that the DVLA makes up its own rules,it would seem as it goes along but should the case go to court it might be a good point for a solicitor to make in your defense.

Location: Pembrokeshire.

The Citroen 2cv has no number on the chassis.
The majority on the road will have been fitted with a new galvanised chassis as most of the originals rusted in a very short time.

Richard M.

Location: Just North of Hadrians Wall

Forgive me for butting in as a Colonial- but I thought an earlier discussion on number plates mentioned that in UK the transfer of old number plates was being stopped?

I think removing a cars original number plates is a bad practice, taking away part of its history for no good reason (I also dislike personalised number plates)

From this exchange I apparently have it wrong.

Tony.

Location: Malvern, Melbourne, Australia.

Having owned a lotus Elan it's common pratice to swap out a rusty chassis for either a new lotus made Galvanised one or a spyder upgraded one.
Both being accepted by the DVLA. Early in the cars life lotus managed to get the chassis designated as a Subframe or sub chassis(?)
This is the text of a letter lotus provide ! not sure of its age ?


"It is important to appreciate that all Lotus production cars from 1963 to date, including Elan (type 26), Elan Plus 2, Europa, Elite (type 75), Eclat, Excel, Esprit, Elan (type M100), Elise and Exige, are unlike the vast majority of mass produced passenger cars, inasmuch as they are not constructed as monocoques (integral body/chassis units). Instead, they use a separate composite body and a steel or alloy chassis unit joined together by threaded fasteners. Apart from savings in manufacturing costs due to reduced tooling investment, this technique allows economical repair or replacement of individual body and chassis units.

The original chassis is stamped or engraved with the V.I.N., which also appears on the V.I.N. label stuck to the body or chassis. If the chassis is renewed, the Lotus Replacement chassis will be stamped with LR......... , but the V.I.N. label will remain unchanged, as the vehicle continuity is maintained, with the vehicle retaining its original V.I.N. throughout its life, regardless of how many chassis, engines or bodies it may acquire. The disparity between the V.I.N. and the replacement chassis number is an indication that the chassis is not the same as that used on original build, which information should not be concealed.

Until very recently, Lotus was not able to record the VIN of the car for which a service replacement chassis was supplied, but introduced over the last few years is a revised Lotus policy of stamping replacement chassis with the original VIN and requiring a substantial part of the original chassis including the stamped VIN, to be returned to Lotus in order to prevent the possibility of registry duplication.

The 'classic' status of all Lotus models, and the economically repairable nature of their construction results in a near zero scrapping rate, and a large proportion of older vehicles fitted with replacement chassis. Any chassis supplied through Lotus dealers and stamped LR........ will have been manufactured to the original specification (notwithstanding the current galvanised coating) using factory jigs. In such an instance, if required by registration authorities, Lotus has no objection to an official Lotus dealer engraving such a chassis with the applicable V.I.N.

Within the classic car community, the continuation of the original registration mark is considered to be an important component of the vehicle provenance, and its loss can be emotionally distressing to many owners, notwithstanding any 'knock-on' effects on the valuation of the car. If there is any other clarification, advice or assistance required to avoid this occurence, please contact:
technical@lotuscars.co.uk "


The most intresting statment must be "with the vehicle retaining its original V.I.N. throughout its life, regardless of how many chassis, engines or bodies it may acquire !"

Wonder what the DVLA response to that would be now ?

regards

Brett

Location: Extremely warm garage apparently it's sunny outside !

Lotus has always been a law unto itself, even in F1 racing!

Location: Near Bicester.

I would think the fact that Lotus police this be requiring the old chassis in return makes this viable. They assure the vehicle identity is retained.

Location: Melrose, Scottish Borders

Actually the Citroen 2CV does have a chassis number stamped into it. It can be found on the offside front chassis member directly under the right hand engine cylinder. However it is very likely to be covered in years of oil and crud.