If you could name some other major projects in Cardiff recently that have been given Welsh names this might possibly provide a teeny bit of support for your argument. Offhand I can't think of any.

I also had no idea that every single person and business outside Wales was run by an English speaker. Presumably all inward investment projects that have been gained by the likes of Poland and Slovakia recently have not featured a word of the native language?

A nice marketable Welsh name would be fine (think of those 'new villages' such as Coed Darcy and Parc Derwen or the Seren building) it's just a shame that this isn't a very good/imaginative one.

I really am not against the Welsh language at all. In fact, I think I'm generally more positive about it than most non-welsh speakers or English people and I recently wrote several posts on the Guardian website vehemently defending it against some particularly ignorant people opposing it and S4C etc.

However, I just think it's name here is political, and it sounds like they are trying to create a Welsh media village as opposed to a media village that might stand comparison with Britain or Europe.

Personally, in this instance, I find the name unwelcoming. The media in Wales is often perceived to be something of a closed shop, where access to it is dependent on language and who you know etc (perception, not truth) and so I think a more generic name would be better to encourage external companies to base UK wide operations here.

I can imagine Sky/Endemol/AN Other Media Company Ltd executives viewing the development more as a place for a small welsh operation, rather than a UK wide operation, and the name doesn't help. It says (to an extent) 'Non welsh speakers, not welcome'

This part of Wales has huge international connections and history, and the name should reflect that more, rather than coming up with a Welsh name that probably 50% of Cardiff residents couldn't translate or pronounce properly, and 99% of non-welsh speakers outside of Wales wouldn't have a clue of the meaning.

I hadn't really thought about the business aspects of the name - although I can imagine it does have an unintended effect of highlighting the "Welshness" of the location, when sometimes being a bit non-descript and international can have benefits. Glasgow has its "International Financial Services District" which is a bit dull but it really emphasises what the district is about - and this aids in marketing it to companies that couldn't give a toss about the local history and the Scottish culture.

I object to it because it tries to impose the Welsh language on a name that is wrapped up with a culture that was fundamentally not Welsh-language. From the 1830s, I believe, Cardiff's docks were a predominantly English-speaking with West Country Folk, then the Irish and finally people from all over the world making the docks their home. The language of business and commerce would have been English. Welsh is slowly becoming a languge of Urban Wales (whilst declining in its heartlands), but the development of Cardiff as a port city owes itself to its internationalism and outward-lookigness. Given it some silly Welsh version of the name just does seem like a tokenistic attempt to make it "Welsh" whilst at the same time trying to reference Tiger Bay.

Call the residential developments something in developer-speak, even use Welsh if you think that creates a nice image for incoming residents etc. But the business aspect should be given a straight-forward English language name that avoids some kind of half-hearted attempt to please both history-buffs and Welsh nationalists.

Can you imagine Admiral Group becoming Grwpio Llyngesydd?

That's exactly what it's supposed to be:

"The second element of the project would comprise the BBC Drama Village, which would total some 170,000 sq ft of television studios and ancillary accommodation, as well as a new office building, which could be operated as a "Digital Media Centre" where a wide range of BBC supply-chain companies and existing Welsh-based Creative Industry Sector businesses would be able to be accommodated."

Under those circumstances "Porth Teigr" is appropriate, if a little cheesy.

Note that the drama village, potential BBC Wales headquarters, and the "incubator" make up less than half of the total commercial space that is going to be at the development. For the rest of this space it would be great to get in some overseas or national media or technology or internet companies, as well as the biosciences focus that they also plan for the site.

So yeah part of the scheme is for small Welsh firms who can hopefully grow, but the larger scheme should aspire to attracting and retaining larger operations with a national or international focus.

Perhaps it shouldn't, but a Welsh name may hinder that aspiration. And it is more than a little cheesy. Tiger's Gate/Port. We'd never call it that in English. Just making it in Welsh doesn't make it any less silly. And it adds both potential business issues and reflects a worrying kind of tokenism.

Surely with any business park the name is really unimportant, what is important is location and Cardiff Bay lacks road links out towards the East.

White Cliffs business park (guess where) with connations of going over a cliff and Gemini Business Park Warrington with suggestions of superstition seem to do alright. Who will pay attention to this name the marketing will sell the location in Cardiff Bay.

"I object to it because it tries to impose the Welsh language on a name that is wrapped up with a culture that was fundamentally not Welsh-language. From the 1830s, I believe, Cardiff's docks were a predominantly English-speaking with West Country Folk, then the Irish and finally people from all over the world making the docks their home."

The fact you believe something doesn't make it true.

In 1850 Welsh was the language of worship in five of the twelve Anglican churches in Cardiff and in 80% of the non-conformist chapels.

Welsh was spoken by over half the population of Butetown in 1881 and by over 40% in 1891 when the city-wide percentage of Welsh-speakers had dropped to 27.9%.

Butetown consistantly had the highest percentage of Welsh speakers of any urban area of Cardiff during the 19th Century. Rural areas such as Whitchurch, Creigiau etc were of course virtualy 100% monoglot Welsh at this time.

The census doesn't lie.

Having said that I don't like the name much as it sounds contrived, although far less so than "Mermaid Key", "Celestia" or "Bayscape". If you want to have a go at made-up names why not pick on those?

Can you provide a source for the figures on Welsh-speakers in Butetown?

I made an assertion based on an understanding that significant parts of Butetown were settled by migrants from the South West of England and Ireland as early as the 1830s and 1840s, and that later there was fairly significant migration of non-Britons to the area. I mean Newtown was in what is today Butetown ward and that was overwhelmingly (English-speaking) Irish.

Without the 'evidence' I find it hard to believe that this is true. I was only making an assertion, I admit that.

It remains the case that the community was always "Tiger Bay", not "Porth Teigr", and what made the community 'special' was its internationalism rather than its Welshness.

Even if there have been no Welsh speakers in Butetown at all for over a hundred years, which of course is absurd, what makes you think it is acceptable to erase all evidence of the previous 3000 years of celtic civilization?

There's a technical term for that, it's "cultural genocide".

Am I missing something here? What have Plaid Cymru got to do with this new name? I thought it was a private sector development not public sector? Is there any evidence to suggest that the developers have been leaned on by Ieuan Wyn Jones etc to give it a Welsh name?

This whole issue has really rather irritated me on almost every level. Firstly the name is stupid - it doesn't make sense and it smacks of smarmy corporate execs trying to be all things to all men and coming up with something that pleases no-one.

But I'm also irritated by this constant airbrushing of history regarding Cardiff, as if Welsh or Welshness was an alien culture being foisted upon the poor citizens. It seems to me that the huge part of the city's history that is undeniably Welsh is the part thats least cherished. We always here about Tiger Bay and Cardiff having the UK's first mosque and the contribution of the Irish etc. Our elected representatives always go on about how proud they are to represent diverse communities as though a community mostly made up of Welsh people would somehow be less worthy.

How many times have you heard people proudly proclaiming (wrongly by the way) that there are more Urdu speakers in Cardiff than Welsh speakers. Just read a Dan O'Neil column around Eisteddfodd time.

I'd like to hear about the large part of the population who would have come from elsewhere in Wales (David Morgan, James Howells anyone?), the still surviving indigenous Welsh speaking community as can be evidenced by the amount of Welsh chapels in the city etc. I'm sure Welsh people contributed towards the docks, the steelworks, the cultural and sporting life of the city but perhpas it's just me but it seems as though the Welshness of the city is brushed under the carpet and we all follow this line that Cardiff only began when people from the west of England and the west of Ireland arrived.

And finally - even if it was the case that Cardiff is mostly made up of people whose antecedents originated elsewhare how does that make us any less Welsh or mean that anything Welsh language must somehow be false or artificial?

Nice one Karl.

According to the Western Brit the name was thought up by Elfen, a firm of "branding consultants". Blame them.

It is pretty lame to be honest, but at least it's Welsh, and a big improvement on the likes of "Mermaid Quay".

Lyndon / Karl

I'm not trying to airbrush the Welsh people or the Welsh language out of the history of Cardiff. Whilst some kind of Norsk, and then Norman French were the languages of Cardiff in the 9th to 13th century, from the mid 13th to the mid 19th century, Welsh was a majority language in the city of Cardiff. I do not deny that. I have no problem with us having St Davids / Dewi Sant, both being equally prominent. Or for new housing or local business developments being given Welsh names. Look at the new developments in Radyr, or parts of Pontprennau, for instance. Fine with that.

But I don't think because something is in Welsh it is necessarily "Better". Cardiff is Wales, and for a long time was Welsh-speaking, and has a growing but relatively small Welsh-speaking minority. But that doesn't mean that everything has to be in Welsh. Queen Street is Queen Street, not Heol y Frenhines. It wouldn't be an improvement to change the name that is promoted to the latter. There is a certain benefit in having names that can be pronounced and understood by the majority of the resident population, let alone the visiting population.

And when it comes to key business destinations we have to recognise that blandness and "anywhereness" can be a selling point. Use of Welsh accents the difference, and does so in a way that might not be perceived as positive by people outside Wales who don't understand the cultural reasons for using Welsh and assume it indicates something about the primary language, or indicates some kind of political statement. You might think this is terrible but this is the world we live in and if we moan and rail against this the Welsh will get a reputation as whingers (we already do have that!).

So I'm happy for Barratt to name their next development "Porth Teigr" - yeah its cheesy but thats what you expect from developers. But to name a supposedly-international media and life-sciences hub such is I think tokenistic and foolish. It does nothing to promote or support Welsh. It does risk making the scheme seem parochial as opposed to international. Many countries where English is a language of a small minority market their major schemes under English for this very reason.

I think its important to realise this isn't a purely private sector development either. I believe the Assembly Government has quite a big interest in the project (I forget the nature) and it is likely that civil servants have been involved in this along with the Igloo staff. The name could be a well-meaning but rather silly thing on Igloo's part, but I wouldn't be surprised if AMs (e.g. Plaid AMs) did suggest that a Welsh name would be great to give the place "identity" and a "sense of place".

I don't think you've really understood the point I was making.

I agree the name is silly. I don't know if Plaid have strong armed the developers to have a Welsh name or not, although if the WAG are involved any pressure would have come equally from Labour surely. Thats all supposition though and as far as I can see has no basis in fact.

My point wasn't that Welsh or Welshness is best. Quite the reverse. What I was saying is that for too long Welsh or Welshness has been diminished to a degree of invisibility when considering the history and nature of Cardiff. Thats why we get comments about Welsh being foisted upon Cardiffians against their will because there seems to be some sort of myth that the city was built almost exclusively by immigrants. It seems as though the few thousand people who made up Tiger Bay or the few thousand Irish in Newtown have a great deal more cache and a more prominent role in the history of the place and the psyche of it's citizens than the many, many thousands of others the bulk of whom would have been Welsh and until the late 19th century many of whom would have been Welsh speaking.

It's an exercise in myth making probably fuelled by a lack of self confidence - lets give ourselves some romantic connection to overseas and play down the Welsh aspect because thats seen as negative.

As far as the name I agree it's silly and I can't see it being used in anything other than official addresses. I don't have a problem with it being in Welsh but equally I don't have a problem with it being in English - my stated preference would be for it to remain as Roath Basin. Is it a marketing faux pas? Possibly, who knows. Thats a matter for the marketing bods.

My point is that the sometimes silly reaction we get to Welsh place names or any overt assertion of Welshness seems to be a product of mythology where to a certain degree the majority 'culture' for want of a better word has been sidelined in favour of something a bit more trendy ie. multiculturalism, Oirishness etc. It irritates me, thats all.

the "working title" for the project was always Tiger Bay - check Igloo's website for this

This development is very much Assembly led, inasmuch as the Assembly were the major landowners (assets inherited from CBDC / WDA)

This development was also very politically charged from the outset - and Tiger Bay was used a tag for a "socially responsible" development ... being sold in marked contrast to previous CBDC initiatives, etc. (i.e. actually involving/benefiting existing communities ...) Igloo consultants, etc. spent some time & money engaging with people in Butetown discussing all kind of eco / cultural / social issues in the run up

My guess is that this now has less currency and the approach has subsequently been 'softened' or even gentrified by the Welsh translation

Indeed the WAG do have a significant interest. According to the masterplan (not sure if it's up to date), the WDA originally bought the land and have since been absorbed into the WAG who have gone into partnership with Igloo to develop it and Elfen to brand it. The only direct WAG expenditure appears to be related exclusively to infrastructure while the rest will be commercial/private led, in addition to the BBC etc.

The only AM's who would've touched it will have been cabinet-level Economy and Transport Ministers, they being Brian Gibbons in 2007 and Ieuan Wyn-Jones since. Even then I imagine the civil service would've had the more hands-on role.

It would've been unusual if backbench AM's got involved with it just as it would if backbench MP's were involved in similar schemes relating to Westminster. The only exposure they would've had to it are the Compulsory Purchase Orders and related questions asked in plenary or in writing.

I'm not exactly sure about input of specific AMs - but the Speaker was also involved (as the Assembly's "Business Manager" ... and for other reasons, this was probably not as 'straightforward' as other similar Government transactions.

For instance, I do know that Cardiff Council were also major political players (mainly through planning / transport depts) - and in fact were largely in opposition to the scheme because they had their own media village plans for the Dumballs Rd / Callaghan Sq area

So as I've said there were (are) a lot of political cards being played here ...

Karl:

"My point wasn't that Welsh or Welshness is best."

That was aimed at Lyndon who said "at least its Welsh" suggesting that he thinks just being in Welsh makes the name superior to an English name. I disagree.

With regards to the population of Cardiff. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the population of Cardiff based on where their ancestors lived in, say, 1801. I don't know enough to assert whether or not most would be Welsh, or most from outside Wales (mainly South West England, Midlands and then Ireland). There has been much talk about two specific groups of migrants to Cardiff - the "Tiger Bay" community and the Irish community, but not much of a focus at all on the many thousands of migrants from rural England, for instance. With regards to the Welsh aspect I think the reason that there is little focus on the Welsh "people" is because it is taken for granted that Cardiff is a Welsh city. Indeed I think there is a perception amongst the English that Wales is monocultural and overwhelmingly Welsh, lacking in diversity. An emphasis on Cardiff's heritage of being quite a migrant city is important to overcome the view held by many people outside the city that it is an inward-looking capital of an inward-looking country.

When you look at the demographic or cultural or social history of a place you focus on the thigns that are "interesting" or "different". So in London, the focus is on Huegonauts, Irish, Jews, then Afro-Caribbeans, Indians, Pakistanis, and Bangladeshis. In Cardiff it was on Butetown and the Irish.

I don't think the Welsh aspects of the city's history have been white-washed. They are just taken for granted in the capital of Wales, particularly by outsiders.

The census results are easily available at Cardiff Central Library.

The academic research on the languages spoken in Butetown are also available from the same source.

See Owen John Thomas "Cof Cenedl" (Gomer), "Cardiff and the Marquesses of Bute" John Davies, (University of Wales Press) and the current work of Dr Simon Brookes.

This isn't a matter for arguement. The facts are clear even if you have to look at paper rather than google to find them!

You Said this:

"I made an assertion based on an understanding that significant parts of Butetown were settled by migrants from the South West of England and Ireland as early as the 1830s and 1840s, and that later there was fairly significant migration of non-Britons to the area. I mean Newtown was in what is today Butetown ward and that was overwhelmingly (English-speaking) Irish. Without the 'evidence' I find it hard to believe hat this is true. I was only making an assertion, I admit that."

Facts are facts. Your "assertions" are simply untrue.

Be nice. Admit you were wrong. Better that than clinging to a false history.

You have a right to your own opinions. You don't have a right to your own facts.

I have given my evidence.

Now give me your justification for an "assertion based on an understanding".

Your words - not mine!

I was certainly not attempting to imply that Welsh was superior to English, I was merely happy at the fact that we at last seem to have a development down the Bay that simply recognises the fact that the Welsh language exists.

I am not much of a Welsh speaker myself, but my wife is, and our four Welsh speaking children were all born and brought up in Cardiff. I think it is hardly unreasonable that they should have the right to expect to see their language and culture reflected in the modern city.

Quite frankly I think it is pitiful that this subject has generated any controversy at all, and it is a sad indictment of our lack of self-confidence as a nation. The Irish did not market themselves internationally by playing down their Irishness, I don't see why we have to pretend to be the western suburbs of Bristol.

What about a good old re-brand? We like doing that with new developments in the Bay just to confuse people- Oval Basin, Bute Avenue, Bute Square etc.

I reckon we should call it Skaro, or even better, DALEK CITY, and then there'll be even more curious, casual visitors to piss of my retired neighbours.

It'd have links to Wales (Terry Nation,creator of the Daleks was from Cardiff)as well as links to the BBC and be instantly recognisable outside of the area to boot.



I should have been in marketing.

Love it, but how about Cardiff International Dalek City? That way it matches with everything else.

Ash - by calling it an assertion I was actually very openly stated that I made the statement without evidence because it seemed to me to be very obvious. You would expect Butetown to be less Welsh-speaking than Cardiff as a whole given that a large section of its population were Irish, and then from other migrant backgrounds. Perhaps Newtown wasn't included in Butetown for statistical purposes at that point which might change the picture.

Given that Tiger Bay referred to Butetown "proper" in any case, and if I take you as being honest, then I am happy to admit I am wrong to the extent that a larger fraction of the population that I thought spoke Welsh. However, that is not to say that the community or commercial language of the docks was Welsh even if more than half understood Welsh. English would have been used to communicate between the Welsh-speakers, English-speakers and other diverse groups, and in the docks themselves. Its possible for English to be the lingua franca even when Welsh was understood by the majority. Are you also denying this is the case?

I encourage the use of Welsh names and I believe that any new development (or current, if it permits) should be given a Welsh name, it hasn't be celebrated enough, it is after all Wales. Regardless of whether Cardiff is a modern city, Cardiff has existed in some form for centuries and Welsh is one of the national languages, so use it, otherwise it starts to die again.
I do believe that it's current inhabitants should have Welsh "thrust" upon them and we shouldn't pander to English speakers, we are not asking they speak it in day to day life, just a street name or suburb, is that so wrong? If you don't like it move to England. Cardiff for years has had other languages (English) thrust on them, it was only 100 or so years ago that is was forbidden to speak Welsh in classrooms, when these kids were Welsh speakers.
Sticking with English makes Wales no different to England, people then quickly realise that there is another culture at play and one that is proud and celebrated. If every non English speaking country used English, that it becomes rather boring and submissive.
Porth Teiger however, I am not a fan of the name and it doesn't interact with the geography of the area. Whilst Cardiff Docks is relatively new (in historical terms), what was there before? Surely it had a name? Why can't this be introduced?
I'm based in Australia and the Aboriginal languages here have been a dirty word since Australia was settled, we are now beginning to see the light and some areas have been given Aboriginal names, whilst they are a minority, it is still a culture of this land and should be celebrated. We don't care if the Brits and Yanks can't pronounce them when they arrive, it is part of this culture and it is part of the fun listening to the Brits asking for directions to Woolloomooloo.

You Know- Sorry for a slightly intemperate post written after a glass of wine!

To be honest I'm not sure whether Newtown was included in the Butetown Census data. It's a bit of a myth that Newtown was exclusively an Irish settlement - although it was majority Irish. It's worth noting though that prior to the current Eglwys Dewi Sant (now in St. Andrews Crescent, formerly in Howard Gardens) the last Anglican Church to hold its services in Welsh in Cardiff was Eglwys yr Holl Saint in Tyndall Street.

As a general point Cardiff has been ill-served by a particular type of amateur local historian / fokelorist. Think Dan O' Neill / Frank Hennessy et al. This version of Cardiff's story is entertaining, colourful and harmless but is largely based on the history of the Irish community. It's not 'wrong' but it's limited.

The whole story is out there and is far more interesting.

Linguistic shift, for instance, DID happen but it occurred between 1881 and 1901, not during the initial burst of urbanisation. It ocurred not primarily because of in-migration but because of a concious decision by Welsh Cardiffians (which by definition at that time meant Welsh-speaking)to adopt English. In 1880, for instance the majority of Chapels in Canton used Welsh. By 1910 all save Salem had voted to adopt English. Until the mid 1880s both James Howells and David Morgan's department stores required all their staff to be bilingual. By 1900 that had gone.

The main point is this. Cardiff is a predominantly English-speaking city but that's recent and by the choice of its citizens. It may be that the growth of WM education implies that a reverse shift is underway. In both cases though neither English nor Welsh have been, or are being, "thrust down people's throats".

Quote -

As a general point Cardiff has been ill-served by a particular type of amateur local historian / fokelorist. Think Dan O' Neill / Frank Hennessy et al. This version of Cardiff's story is entertaining, colourful and harmless but is largely based on the history of the Irish community. It's not 'wrong' but it's limited.

The above is what I tried to say previously and which you have summed up rather succinctly. Thanks for that. Perhaps it's because I'm a Catholic and most of my relatives lived in Newtown but this was the predominant version of the Cardiff story presented to me. As you say not wrong but only a small part of the stor. What I find irritating is the larger part seems to be ignored - whether thats because it's taken for granted as Random says above or because the Irish/Tiger Bay bit is more 'sexy' I don;'t know.

Hopefully the forthcoming Museum in the Old Library will redress the balance and give a more rounded view of how the city developed and who helped make it the place it is today.

I think the museum probably will, and probably should focus on the more "exotic" elements of Cardiff's heritage. It is more interesting to hear about Tiger Bay and the Overseas Sailors marrying Welsh women; and the Irish stowing on boats and then living in Newtown and around the Hayes; about the UK's first mosque; about Italian cafe owners (although more a Valleys thing perhaps) and Jewish refugee pawn brokers. Yes, it will and should also feature the Welsh and their culture who, as a group, have made a bigger contribution culturally and demographically to the city than the other groups combined (probably), but this won't be reflected in the ratio of exhibits and information about the different groups. Migrants from afar are just "more interesting" than hill farmers from Radnor, farm hands from Carmarthen, fishermen from Pembroke and miner's sons from the Rhondda.

In your subjective opinion. I know lots about that already, to me the more interesting aspect is the big bit thats been overlooked.

Yeah my opinion is subjective. But I think I'm in the majority on this one.

Yeah, the Oirish thing is pushed because they have a more romantic folk-hero story (or so they'd like us to believe) and are better at marketing myths. In reality, we drink them under the table

I'm pretty glad that we haven't got a gimmicky diaspora culture going on. People from the USA probably think that names like Davies and Williams are just 'normal American names'. Wherever we went, we assimilated into the society (being white & protestant helped) and became successful.

again you think Dai. I'd be more inclined to learn exactly what happened and not some mythical ideal that we all descend from irish/somali/brummie/ etc etc...when in fact the most of us are predominantly Welsh...its a part of Cardiffs heritage that is often overlooked. we as a city are as welsh as anything esle out there, we just have much more multiculturism due to our hey day as the big coal port.

I think you'll find that in Cardiff, whatever wave of immigrant has arrived, they have integrated rather well. whilst you may have communities in the truest sense of the word, you don't get the ghetoisation (for want of a more appropriate word) in Cardiff than you get elsehwere. immigrants always have integrated rather well imho. this is evidenced by so many second or third generation who consider themselves to be Welsh (and quite rightly so)

That's impossible to know without knowing everyone's opinion surely ?

It would be great to have a section on each nationality that has settled in the city in any significant number, even the pesky Saes deserve a corner in the museum considering so many people from England have settled here....well maybe, if they let us win in the footie next year

Whilst maybe not quite as acute as in other cities, there most definitely is a degree of ghettoisation and community fragmentation ... this might not be so apparent to some people who may have noticed that these 'foreign' people now seem to be in all areas of Cardiff - and living alongside "British" neighbours to boot.

Additionally, Cardiff's public social life usually includes a conspicuous smattering of 'ethnic diversity', e.g. Reggae bands at The Big Weekend, Samba Schools & Dragon Dances, Curry and German Beer festivals, ad nauseum.

But this does not tell the whole story ...

I don't think that the current Welsh / English catchment areas are necessarily contemporary with the community patterns that you refer to

My guess is that the concentration in these areas is at least partly due to an influx of Welsh speakers in the 70s with the advent of Chapter Arts and S4C.

Those inner city communities would have been the most affordable and I think more 'alluring' to young creatives - many from quite rural communities - going out into the world. I don't doubt that the existing cultural diversity was also quite attractive to the newcomers - and the political climate at the time also facilitated interaction between the new Welsh soul rebels and other formal colonial subjects




Willows is also 'close' (closer?) and was mooted as the future catchment area school for pupils from Butetown ...

From a recent photo i saw a crane going up near where the new bridge is, could also be the dismantling of teh one taking the cube away though

lots of good stuff in evenimng classes at cardiff uni about welsh immigration and migration, really interesting subject matters.
have studied it myself and happy to field questions as there is some guff spouted here, but would recommend anything by dr bill jones if you want real info and analysis

I maybe wrong but I thought Bill's work was mainly about outward migration from Wales (particularly to America) rather than migration into and within Wales.

I'm happy to stand corrected but I'd have thought Chris Williams, Dai Smith, John Davies, Simon Brookes and Owen John Thomas were a bit more relevant.

Yes you're right Ash, Bill Jones does concentrate on emigration, but he has a lot of knowledge about movement of population within Wales as well, including the constant flow of Welsh people leaving rural Wales and moving into Cardiff, and Liverpool - some of them later moving on abroad (staged migration, they call it) .
I agree also abut whiom to listen to. It's fascinating to hear Owen John talking his research, which concentrates on the use of English and Welsh in court cases and the recorded use of both languages in evidence. That way, since they recorded exactly what was said, you had a more realistic picture of the generally used language than in 'official' documents, where English was certainly that used in Cardiff. Yes, the language of administration was English - that was the ruling language, just as Norman French was for Cardiff and the rest of England and parts of Wales before about 1350. But just that didn't stop Welsh being the general spoken language for large numbers, particularly in some areas where they were the majority - Whitchurch and Roath are only two examples. In Butetown, the building which occupied Mount Stuart Square before the Coal Exchange was Siloam, a Welsh Baptist chapel. Loudon Square? A Welsh Calvinistic Methodist Chapel.

A previous comment referred to more recent Welsh speaking incomers settling in Grangetown. They settle there for the same reason as other incomers - houses are cheaper, and as they're generally young, looking for their first home, or moving from parts of Wales where, if they're selling, they get far less for their house than it costs to buy in Cardiff, it's natural they settle there - the same reason as for incomers from other parts of the world. That was the reason also that they used to choose Pontcanna!

I must admit that I'm appalled by the name Porth Teigr. It's neither one thing or the other - 'Porth' is 'gate', not port, and it isn't even IN Tiger Bay anyway. It's in the Docks!

The other thing that irritates me on this thread are the snide comments such as 'Ieuan Wyn Jones likes it' Any proof of that? He certainly likes the project, but what he said in the Guardian local on-line smacked of a civil servant's press release than any great effusiveness for the name on Ieuan's part. And in what way is it 'typical Plaid'? It smacks to me of typical English-orientated marketing firm (despite the firm's name) thinking 'Oh, that's a good name - echoes Tiger Bay, but it sounds Welshy too'. However, I expect we'll come to live with it just as we've come to live with the ridiculous Rigarossa - Italian for Redrow, the developers. Then there's Caspian Point - what relevance does that have to the seafaring tradition of Cardiff, since no-one ever sailed from Cardiff Docks to the landlocked Caspian ( Oh! I get it! The Caspian's like the Bay now the barrage has closed it off?!)

By the way, my family have been living in Cardiff since 1913 - and we've been Welsh-speakers all the way through. We're now 5th generation immigrants from Hirwaun!

Apologies. I ferreted around and 'Elfen' is Guto Evans, who sounds from his CV http://uk.linkedin.com/in/gutoevans to be very Welsh, and his office actually is in Butetown, just off James St. Doesn't make Porth Teigr any less cheesy though.

immigrants from Hirwaun





Alwyn


as an aside, what percentage of welsh (at home) speakers do you think there are in Cardiff? growing up I cannot ever remember coming across a family where we said 'they speak welsh in the home'

I appreciate the welsh medium education is a fairly recent phenomenon which means more homes now have welsh speakers, but true hen iaith families - any ideas?

Would you rather invest in the

Prague Media Village?

or the

Mediaskova Willagosckva de Bratislava ovsky?

Well, James I'd actually invest in Bratislava, since I've done my homework, have enough of a grasp of a foreign language to interpret your abysmal Slovak parody of a name, and know that setting up costs are far cheaper and that skilled labour is easier to find in the Slovak capital than in the Czech tourist trap, Prague. But then...I'm more interested in making a profit than in silly names.

Jantra,
It was 2% in 1949 when I started in school in Cardiff. Now it's given as 10%, though it would be true to say that the boundary between Welsh speaking and English speaking families is more and more blurred. My father, for instance, never spoke Welsh, but was the only one in my family not to do so. We went back and forth between the two languages. But he came from a family where the parents had spoken Welsh to each other, but English to their children, because that was the 'done thing' at the time in Cardiff ( 1920s and 30s).I always had the greatest respect and love for him as he never once in all my knowing him said " I can't understand, speak English". He certainly had a great deal of passive knowledge, but was always too diffident to use it - to us as children anyway, though he'd use a little with gradchildren later on. We accepted that and if he was in the conversation, we'd switch automatically to English. Yet if I look back, ours was certainly a'Welsh speaking' household.

I'm not a Welsh speaker and speaking personally - didn't ever want to be. What I find difficult to understand is why , when I hear Welsh spoken, it is liberally sprinkled with English words?

I know 'television' is a modern word and Welsh is an old language but surely something could have been constructed in Welsh - e.g. as the German language does with 'Fernsehen'.

I happened to tune by S4C last night and this man - speaking Welsh - began each comment he made with, "Well, of course,.......(rest in Welsh)"

Surely, if one is speaking Welsh, one should speak Welsh

Perhaps for the same reasons that modern English is liberally sprinkled with les mots Francais?

I wouldn't be surprised if (getting back to Roath Basin) the word Basin is originally French!

I very much doubt that Welsh is the predominant home language in 10% of Cardiffian school-children's homes. I'd need to see figures to back that up.

Wales online did a good map and that showed that in Cardiff only about 9 - 11% of Cardiffians aged 25 - 35 (who'd now be about 34 - 44 - i.e. typical of school-age children's parents) spoke Welsh. I don't think that many people have learned Welsh as adults to a standard which makes them go from being non-speakers to first-language speakes. But there may have been some migration increasing that to say 11 - 13%. I'm sure I've seen figures that something like 60% of speakers use it every day. So those who actually use it as their main language is probably more like 40% (and probably less outside of the heartlands). And don't forget that immigrants (who normally don't speak Welsh) have many more kids per family. So I reckon the figure is more like 3 - 4%.


Its a guess. But I don't buy the 10% figure.

Television = Teledu

I'm guessing that the "of course" guy is Welsh Labour AM Alun Richards (he's a learner btw) attempt to pronounce "wrth gwrs".

I don't think it's possible to say families are Welsh speaking or English speaking. It's all a matter of degree.

I'd say the percentage of households in Cardiff where some of the conversations take place in Welsh is probably 10% plus. That may be just talking about homework where the kids go to Welsh medium schools to the majority of social conversations taking place in Welsh but with quite a lot in English too.

I don't think it's a case of choosing one or the other and in reality it's mostly a mixture. But isn't that the point of being bilingual?

Tele = latin for distance
vision

therefore it is not an English word

just like bungalow (indian), restaurant (french), cafe (french), etc etc

so next time you are speaking to your friends tor, are you going to have courage in your convictions and only use English words. Rather than restaurant/cafe are you going to say the eating place, the place that serves food etc etc. of course not.

imagine the french or indians saying the same 'why do the english speakers sprinkle our words when they speak?'

thats the beauty of the english (and welsh) language. they adapt by using other words from other languages.

By the way Karl, we use some Welsh in our home, my boys go to Ysgol pen y Garth and myself and the wife are learning (so we know when they are talking about us )

Don't twist my post to suit your particular conviction please. I am not talking about words that have 'grown up' in the English language and you know very well what I mean. All languages evolve and I appreciate that. You know that the words you quote are not even pronounced in the main like their originals.

I gave an example of a language that has developed a particular word from within its own language and not by using a word taken directly from another!

However, I wasn't attacking the Welsh language per se and I did realise that my post would bring all the Welsh language 'zealots' out of the woodwork! I must admit though that I didn't count you in the first few!