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Jantra, Huw.
Plaid's position is quite simple. London doesn't care about Wales' economic development. London has underinvested in Wales historically. The lack of an electrified local rail network and a line to London is proof of this. The "electrification of the railways" thread has numerous examples of other parts of the UK with smaller populations than South Wales having had electrified rail since the '60s eg Bournemouth and East Anglia.
London doesn't care about Wales and continues to see us as an Energy-cow. The energy used to be coal, it us now LPG wind and tidal. Hence the refusal of Westminster to allow the WG to have powers over planning energy projects over 50mw and the UK riding roughshod over local opposition at South Hook and the recent wind turbine plans in Carmarthenshire and other projects.
We believe that having Welsh people who care about Wales making policy and implementing it will, in the long term benefit our country.
The UK is borrowing £120 bn a year. Wales share of that is about £6 bn.
We don't know the future of the EU. We don't know the future of the Euro. We don't know the future of the UK within the EU. We don't know the future of the UK, given the referendum in Scotland next year. We don't know the future of the pound.
Given all that uncertainty, Plaid is reformulating it's policies in all of these areas.
We produced a paper last year called "bridging Offa's gap". We know that independence could be painful. But we believe that we could run the country better than any of the London parties, who all have paymasters in England and a vested interest in keeping Wales dependent and poor.
Under Plaid and independence our children and grandchildren will have better lives. They won't believe,like yo do Jantra, that they and their country are second-rate or crap at government or business. Their pride in their nation won't derive solely from victories in different codes of football. They will be citizens of the world,like the denizens of any other country, not subjects of the English.
Here is the pdf, Bridging Offa's Gap
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.english.plaidcymru.org%2Fuploads%2Fdownloads%2FOffas_gap.pdf&ei=sIBRUaKyEcyzhAeC6ICgAg&usg=AFQjCNGW496ZpPLQNA40B6ebhe48P75FJA
BLD
Just because I am pro union does not mean I am anti Wales. I just think we don't have a particularly good track record at developing our indigenous businesses and we have a very poor record in provision of public services. so forgive me for not gleefully skipping towards the pro independence brigade.
Both you and Lyndon continue your anti English tirade which has little or no basis in fact. It was the Butes that exploited Wales and not the English. It was the Butes who took the Welsh gold and made a profit - not the English.
What is also based in fact is that Wales is a net recipient of funding under Barnett. You can't possibly be one of the poorest areas in the UK and at the same time get higher funding than England per capita without being a net recipient of funding. No one is Plaid can answer the question to the Barnett gap and we also have the loss of public sector jobs that Lyndon thinks will be plugged by transferring services from the UK to Wales. Well the UK has a ration of 1:4 in the public sector whereas Wales has 1:3. That means that we will see some job losses as union services are trnasferred to England and Wales services are transferred from the UK. A straightforward calculation shows you that Wales will lose 1 in 4 public sector roles if we are too match Englands 1:4 ratio.
I've read the report and whilst it is an interesting read it really is clutching at straws. The more I hear from the nationalists the more I realise this goal of independence is at all costs without reference to improving our quality of life. Wales is a poor nation, we don't have much in the way to sell. That doesn't mean I'm not proud of my country, just I realise that we will see our existing quality of life drop as a result of independence.
You mention improving certain industries but how are you going to encourage the capital inflows when Plaid plan to adopt such an anti business anti corporate stance to multinationals? Where is the capital coming from to develop our industries? It has to come from somewhere Wales can't just pretend the wealth exists.
Another example, why haven't we established a national farmers cooperative? The dairy cooperative in New Zealand is their largest business, my mate went to work in one of their research labs, using molecular genetics to improve the productivity of the dairy herd:
http://www.fonterra.com/global/en
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonterra
We produde large amounts of milk from farms in West Wales, but much of it is sent straight to England for processing. Virtually no Caerphilly cheese is actually made in Wales.
Lyndon
you really arent getting this are you. No one is saying it cannot be an aim to ensure local procurement of services, but you cannot legislate for it. To do so will be illegal under EU law. Any public service organisation has to make the tender process fair to all parties including those from outside their jurisdiction.
also, you ignore the UK debt that Wales will pick up, you ignore the loss of funding under Barnett (we are a net recipient of funds), you ignore the cost of funding the debt we take on, our interest levels will be much greater than the UKs, you ignore the fact we have a private sector that is much smaller than is required hence we will struggle to generate any sort of wealth with the majority of it going to external parties in the form of interest.
your answer is more taxes and borrowing more. so in other words, you will reduce peoples disposable incomes reducing their quality of life whilsst placing additional tax burdens on future generations. What a surprise.
Ideas for increasing revenue for the Welsh Republic:
The Crown Estate: The land, coast and seabed of Wales do not belong to Mrs Windsor, they belong to the people of Wales. Revenues are fairly small at the moment, but the potential for offshore windfarms is obvious. These assets should be managed for the interests of the Welsh people.
Water exports: Sorry Birmingham, you're going to have to pay for it.
Electricity: Wales is a major exporter of energy, which England is going to be short of pretty soon as most of the coal-fired stations close due to EU environmental legislation. In particular, Dinorwic supplies most of the spare "surge" capacity for southern Britain. It shouldn't take a genius to take some financial advantage for Wales out of this position.
The LNG pipeline: this supplies over 10% of the UK's gas, with the capacity for up to 30%. As long as we're not greedy we can impose transit fees.
Second home taxes: obviously.
Charges to the MoD for using Sennybridge, Eppynt and Castle Martin. These ranges cannot be easily replaced by the English armed forces.
Former US Treasury Secretary states that UK government economic policies are "illogical":
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21934894
Lyndon
a couple of points:-
Wales has not suffered a century of hardship. Wales is part of the UK and whilst it may be one of the poorest parts, we have food, healthcare, schools, clean water, heating, lighting and so on. if you want to see poverty, go to Chad.
secondly, are you really sure you want to play tit-for-tat with England over the use of resources such as water? I don't think it would be a good idea personally. What if England decide to put tolls on the SSC and Severn Bridge costing £1k per time? silly maybe, but lets face it, we need England far more than they need us.
you also state that there is no evidence that Wales is a net recipient of funding from HMT. However, your cohort has provided a paper from the party you follow without question. The paper is called Bridging the (fictitious) offa gap. That flies in the face of your claim that we are not net recipients. So I'm confused - either you were wrong and we are net recipients or you were right and Plaid's economic Commission are telling fairy stories. Perhaps you can clarify?
it is also useful to note that Plaid have no real economic or fiscal policy at present. you've dressed it up as turmoil in the EU etc etc but I happen to think it is very important to know if (i) we will have our own currency (ii) will we have an independent central bank (iii) with the government be limited to its borrowing (iv) are we going to be beholden - like Cyprus - to other nations and thus not really be independent?
NB i've read the aforementioned paper and whilst it is full of pretty graphs and diagrams, it doesn't really state anything of substance. all it tells us is that Wales is getting worse in terms of performance and output. It gives no answers or sets out no strategy/costings/timescales.
I went to the launch of "bridging Offa's Gap" and I fundamentally disagree with the conclusions and much of the data. We are a broad church. You asked what the party line was, so I told you. Luckily we like dissent in the ranks in Plaid. We are not the robots you find in Labour or the well-meaning but generally deluded Tories.
By the way, what great plans do the Conservatives, LibDems, Labour party or Ukip have for Wales?
They all seem rather quiet on the issue.
Jeremy
It is far from fantasist at all. I am not talking about Fleischmann and Pons chemistry which has never been replicated, I am talking about low energy collisions that can be found through targeted lasing (photons create high pressure at a nuclear level – my thesis was based on this type of technology and it is something I follow with great interest), for an overview read this ICF). Significant experiments have been conducted and progress is being made. As I said, I expect some form of fusion reaction taking place in a controlled environment within 50 years or so. So does the rest of the physics world.
Africa could be the bread basket of the world – it just needs the political will to do so. The more developed nations need to encourage this sort of development. However i disagree that the population can rise for ever. There will be a point where there are too many people and not enough food. That will result in the unfortunate but expected result of people starving to death which will maintain balance in the system. Harsh but it is the way nature will ensure stability.
B Lee Dingobvious
One thing I have learned is that never really to take note of anyone who is aligned to a political party as they tend to follow party dogma. I have asked questions that have been skirted and instead we have party rhetoric thrown back at us. It has been stated that Plaid have no economic policy at present. That really doesn’t instil confidence. No one can explain how the shortfall in public sector jobs is going to be bridged or how the £9bn or so shortfall in Barnett funding is going to be overcome. All we hear is tax rises, more borrowing (increasing the burden on tomorrows generation) and playing tit for tat with England over the use of resources. In all honesty the message I am hearing is that we don’t mind being beholden to Brussels as that won’t be London. The way you and Lyndon address the English – our fellow Britons - is nothing short of parochial and quite frankly insulting. I’d rather know 100 Englishmen than just 1 bigoted Welshman along the lines of you. No wonder people think Plaid are backward looking when you cannot even address the English without terse and irrational comments. The English did not rape and pillage Wales of its natural resources – the Butes did.
For reference my wife is English, my sons are half English, my sons are fluent in Welsh (aged 8, 6 and 4) and will be brought up to be tolerant of all peoples and to hate no one. I pity that anger and jealousy that you and Lyndon have. It shines through your posts quite clearly.
Jantra. Why do you equate my desire for independence with bigotry against the English? When did I say I had any dislike for English people?
This is why I said that you were a mentalist. I've answered your questions, told you that I disagree with my party on certain issues but you resort to a general attack on nationalism! I ended my last post with a question. What plans do the four large English parties have for Wales' economic success?
As to your personal and familial English heritage, mine are far more Anglo-Saxon than yours. I reckon that I've spent far longer living outside of Wales than you have too.
I don't have a problem with the English. It's the Uncle Toms like you that are holding us back, the traitors who hate Wales. The enemy within. As Wolfie Smith used to say.....Nah. That's too good for the likes of you.
Bankers and the other leeches that make money out of the money scam will get "justice" one day.
Ymlaen!
This 'mentalist' says you're a little fibber. My opinion that you hold the English in low regard is based on what you post, here are two examples....
Victor
Thanks for the referral, I'll have a look now. I agree with you, I don't think we lack ideas or ability here in Wales, we just lack capital. Young timmy from Surrey has a trust fund he can fall back on when he is 25 - this helps him set up his own business. Young Dafydd doesn't have such a luxury thus making it an uneven playing field.
I've also said before that quite a few of our budding businessmen put cost before value. When putting together business plans and proposals it often pays to have expert advice guide you but I see it all too often in that some try and keep costs down and do things that are beyond their capability. There needs to be a complete paradigm shift in that way of thinking. In this world of capital rationing only the best plans get the funding.
In respect of the latter, WG can help by giving more targeted funding and speeding up the entire process which is far too slow, onerous and cumbersome at present. Business opportunities come and go and if WG are serious about supporting business then they need the processes in place that can react quickly to provide backing, expertise or political clout where necessary. Far too often Wales is let down by the slow moving civil service who seemingly cannot comprehend life where not all i's are dotted or t's are crossed.
Valid points - I particularly agree about a focus on cost. I've got a background in marketing and this something a lot of SMEs appear to struggle with! I've seen some terrible websites and very poor branding & content...not sure that's unique to Wales though, more SMEs in general!
Anyway I've gone off topic (politics), but hope you enjoy the magazine!
you keep up the ad hominem jibes mr bleedingobvious. it says more about you than it does me.
if you are really interested to know who would employ an accountant such as me, why not pop into our penarth or hotwells office. you might be surprised at our client base. as for your lack of referral, we'll live with it. I'm sure we'll manage given business has been at least 30% growth year on year for the last 6 years.
NB are you saying the Butes were not the main beneficiaries of Wales' industrialisation? I reckon they were. perhaps you can enlighten me with who you think did better?
PS as you are aware I don't hide behind avatars on the wunderweb and i'm happy for people to know who I am. perhaps you would be so bold?
da boch chi
Jantra.
Where was the Queen born? Where were her father, grandfather, great-grandfather and great, great grandmother (who were all monarchs) born? Where did they all live?
England.
But of course in your alternative reality she is Scottish.
You are being a mentalist by suggesting that I am trying to intimidate you. I wrote that you were either naive or conceited to have revealed your identity on this forum or any other, such as CCMB.
David Milliband? Don't make me laugh. He is a typical UK establishment warmonger.
From the Daily Post 1/5/12:
LEANNE Wood has refused to take a pay rise since becoming Plaid Cymru leader, party officials have confirmed.
The 40-year-old is entitled to take home an annual salary of more than £77,000 since taking over from former chief Ieuan Wyn Jones in March.
But yesterday it emerged the former probation officer, a recent and vocal critic of a Welsh council boss’s near-six figure salary, has spurned an additional yearly payment of around £23,000 on top of her £53,000 basic pay.
The Royal family are hardly of English stock are they? Being born in a barn doesn’t make you a horse. Since Edward VI (not Henry VIII my bad!) it is a matter of historical record that the Royal family have been Scottish, Hannoverian, Dutch and German. It was only due to the Great War that made the Royal family change its name to something more anglicised.
I am at a loss why you think the Crown has done better than everyone else. I would have thought the Butes and Crawshays did better. I’d also say that despite Wales being used for its resources, so was the rest of the UK. It wasn’t as if the English came in and took only our resources, they used their own too! Not only that, but pre industrial revolution the Rhondda had a population of around 1,000. There were little or no towns or villages and infrastructure. So to say that the English only took is not exactly truthful. They certainly created an infrastructure that did not exist previously. I’m not trying to be contentious but Wales did not have the capital to exploit its natural resources at that time. We were an agrarian society with few wealthy people living here. It is hardly the ‘rape and pillage’ and ‘colonial extraction’ that has been portrayed in this thread. Wales (and Cardiff in particular) was rapidly industrialised and did very well from the capital that came to the country.
Regarding your continued ‘mentalist’ name calling. You have repeated requested I stop posting in this thread and you have made comment that I should be careful as my identity is known. Now you say you’re not doing any of those things. Your posts appear to be very confused at times.
Your last paragraph, I get it now – Plaid and everyone associated with it = good, everyone else = bad. Why didn’t you say that before. All hail Leanne wood on her meagre £53k salary. If she really wanted to show solidarity with her people she’d take the Welsh average of £23k or thereabouts. But she hasn’t. So it’s not all good is it.
Jantra. I suggest that you read some Welsh history and acquaint yourself with the English approach to Wales.
I call you a mentalist because you insist on arguing that black is white. Of course the Crown, or UK state has been the biggest beneficiary of Wales annexation. Remember Tryweryn?
If you asked the Queen as to her nationality, would she say Scottish or German?
No, she would say that she is English. Why don't you write to her and tell her that she is really Queen of Hanover and Scotland?
You wanted to know my identity and I've told you that I think that it would be foolish for me to do that. You do know that cyber-stalking can become stalking?
Yes Leanne is special. Only a blind person or someone with no heart would fail to acknowledge that.
I reckon the Queen would say she is British. You said the monarchy was the biggest recipient of Welsh resource. Now you are saying it is the UK state. It is this continued change of direction which makes it difficult for me to understand what your arguments actually are. It may have escaped your attention but Wales is also part of the UK. So whilst the beneficiary of the resource was the UK, so too was Wales. I mentioned the little if any infrastructure in the Valleys before industrialisation. It would still be a place of hills, sheep and few people if it wasn’t for outside capital.
I don’t want to know your identity. I said would you be so bold as you continually snipe from the sidelines and make things personal. By all means criticise my posts and my opinions. That is why I put them in the public domain. You are happy to dish out the abuse due to your anonymity but you won’t see such comments from me as it is pathetic and says an awful lot about your maturity levels and your tolerance of others opinions.
Leanne is certainly not special. She is merely a woman who leads a political party with ideals from the 19th century. You continually criticise the English as if what happened 100-150 year ago has any bearing on our lives today. It doesn’t. Wales is not specifically targeted by England – you’ll find that the UK is London centric and the North West has just as much beef with London as we do. They just don’t dress it up as colonialism or racism. That is just the way the UK has developed.
One final thing, I am Welsh, I am proud to be Welsh. I am also proud to be British. The four nations are much more than the sum of the parts. I use the term nations in its loosest sense because given the migration of the UK people between each nation over the past few hundred years I doubt you’ll find anyone who is truly of anglo-saxon/welsh/Scottish/irish stock. We are a British people where some of us – in my opinion – have insular and parochial attitudes towards the rest.
Jantra. Do you understand the difference between the Crown and the Monarchy? Google it as I can't be bothered to illuminate your ignorance.
Do you understand that English (UK) nationalism has been the most powerful in the world for the past 400 years? The largest empire, the most widespread language and institutions, the biggest profits and the most people subjugated and killed?
Do you know who the Kalahari bushmen and the native Tasmanians were?
Yes the infrastructure of Wales was developed, to transfer Iron, Steel, Coal and Slate to the ports and thence to other parts of the world. The electrification of those railway lines never happened. They are the only urban rail network in Europe that remains un-electrified. I wonder why? Less extensive networks were electrified half a century ago, Merseyrail and the Tyne/ Wear metro.
Wales has suffered economically as a result of this under-investment. Even you must be able to see that now.
I am glad that you are proud to be British. Funny that your magnanimity and fraternity doesn't extend to people from Swansea or Welsh rugby fans. You seem to he extremely bigoted in your opinions of those two blameless groups of fellow Britons.
B. Lee Dingobvious: 'I have devoted my life to study'
Enough said - get out in the real world
These ideas that Wales would be sorted if independent. Its as if the people running the country don'y matter independence will bring prosperity - what utter bollox.
What about all the independent countries that pursue populist economic agendas, such as most of Africa, Argentina, Many parts of the middle east. These countries have a lot more resources but their people are by far worse of than Wales.
The jingoistic nonscence some of you spout reminds me of the daily mail and certain people complaining it is the immigrants fault they can't get a job even though they have sat on their arse for the last 15yrs through one of the biggest booms in uk history.
At least if Wales was independent we could cut the public sector and adopt a more free market aproach. If all of Ireland had stayed in the UK it would be a shithole like Northern Ireland is.
According to the latest ONS statistics, there are only 138,000 central government employees in Wales, 70,000 of those work for NHS Wales.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-254053
100,000 jobs transferred, my arse.
Lyndon
your posts really do come across a tad childish. However, since maths is clearly not your strong point here you go:
1:3 means for every 1 public sector worker there are 3 private sector workers. That equates to 25:75 or 25% of the workforce.
1:4 means for every 1 public sector worker there are 4 private sector workers. That equates to 20:80 or 20% of the workforce. so thank you for agreeing with me.
now, here in Wales we have 1.5m or so employed of which 375k or so are currently in the public sector. that means 1.125m are in the private sector. Now lets assume Wales is independent and we end up with a UK ratio of 1:4. That would mean 1.125m private sector workers and 281k public sector workers. However we had 375k workers previously so we'd see a net reduction of 94k.
the UK debt is around 1.2trn of which 5% is 60bn not £40bn.
you ignore the public sector pension liability of £150bn as if it does not exist.
the jobs such as trident etc would be a saving for Wales I agree. However trident is measured in billions and Wales contribution would be hundreds of millions. On the flip side we would lose all of the RAF/Army bases based here and all the spend in the local economy.
Since Plaid are anti multinational will we see the likes of Tesco, EADS, Barclays, Lloyds, L&G Asda and so on - all with significant numbers of Welsh employees - be asked to leave or will they simply be taxed to the point they leave on their own? After all, Plaid want a co-operative economy based on localism - you cannot have that with such companies being based in Wales
Regarding your comment about the gilts markets. Stop making yourself look silly. You're taking to an ex trader.
Lyndon
What will our new currency be? How do you think it will fair on the worlds bourse? We will see investors dumping our currency causing inflation and redUce living standards? Will we have our own printing press or be reliant on the Germans to manage our interest rates? What happens if Germany experiences high inflation and the ecb raises interest rates? What then for Wales?
Lots of questions but no answers
I'm not sure where to start with this....
If Wales wanted to keep the 100k public sector jobs it would need to create 400k private sector jobs to keep the 1:4 ratio. The only problem is Wales has 150k unemployed so we would need 250k migrant workers. That isn't going to happen. If we split the 100k workers between the public and private sector then we would need 80k private sector jobs. Given we have 150k unemployed this would require halving unemployment. This isn't going to happen either.
The150bn pension liability is a debt in the same way your mortgage is a debt. You have an obligation to pay it. Let's say average life expectancy post retirement is 20 years then this will result in payments of 7.5bn per annum. Our tax receipts are only around 18bn at present and you think we can ignore payments that will make up almost half of what we collect. Perhaps you should have stayed in bed.
Our cost of borrowing will rise. We gave no credit history and a weak economy. There is no reason to think the markets will support our currency or our borrowing requirements.
You refer to us having our own armed forces. With eryr wen and a motto of fe godwn ni eto no doubt. The uk has around 300k active personnel, so wales would have 15k, less than a division across all three arms. Who do you expect to fight off with that - the isle of man?
Still you avoid the questions about currency, interest rate management and central banking. Three things which underpin a sustainable economy.
I am not saying you are a Marxist-Leninist (I think trot is a more appropriate term) but it has been said in this very thread that plaid are against multi national companies and are for local cooperatives and tax policies that favour Wales. Any multi national who are based here will be expropriating wealth out of wales unless they are taxed considerably. So how do you intend to ensure the wealth of the companies I have already referred to stays in Wales if not through taxation? If you tax them too highly they will up and leave, setting up 20 miles down the road but providing the same service to the same people.
So this eeeeediot Mancunian wannabee hates Jacks but loves the carrot crucnching tobacco selling slave trading, worzufifer Brizzolians.
you gotta vote plaid
if you got any pride
All for freedom is bear's head
CARDIFFWALESMAP
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