Should they all just move down closer to the M4?

probably as their raison d'etre is no longer there. the topography doesn't lend itself towards anything other than resource extraction and you're never going to get a critical mass of business to locate their to provide sufficiet internally generated wealth.

we could invest in rapid light rail to make travel to Cardiff/Swansea/Newport easier so that getting to work is more straightforward, but we would need the jobs first and foremost and the people would need the will to travel up to an hour on public transport which, so far in Wales, is not that evident

Does make you wonder what South Wales would be like if there was never any coal? "Stay in the market town of Cardiff as a base to explore the unspoilt beauty of the Valleys National Park"

More likely Merthyr or Newport. Cardiff was an insignificant 25th largest town in Wales before industrialisation.

Strictly speaking it was the presence of ironstone, iron ore, limestone and wood that sparked the industrialisation of the South Wales valleys. The coal industry came later.



Um... Merthyr was hamlet before industrialisation. True, it did industrialise before Cardiff but the period when it had a larger population was relatively brief. Brecon or Swansea would be a better example of the point you're trying to make.

Merthyr was an iron town, and there was a certain amount of industrialisation centred around metallurgy in the wider Valleys area - e.g. chain works at Pontypridd, Tinplate works in Treforrest, etc.

However, I think its fair to say that a lot of the population growth that took place was concentrated in the second half of the 19th century, and reflected the growth of coal mining as the main employer.

Without that, Wales probably would have seen significantly more migration to industrialising areas of England, and emigration to the US, Canada and Australia (I think I'm correct in saying emigration rates were lower from Wales than from Scotland, Ireland, and much of Southern and Central England). Where would the main city have been if Cardiff hadn't grown as a coal port? I don't know... Wrexham due to its connections with industrial Merseyside?

Anyway, I think its clear that further development around the M4 corridor, especially in and around Cardiff, are vital for economic performance and for giving greater opportunities for people born in deprived parts of the Valleys. It is better to spend money pump-priming areas that have a chance of being economically sustainable (lower RCT, maybe Pontypridd, Caerphilly, Bridgend) than pouring more money into isolated parts of the Rhondda and Garw valley. More needs to be done to tackle the main barrier preventing people leaving declining communities - private and social housing supply in more successful parts of Wales.

The assumption that valleys folk will do this en masse is the mistake that successive governments have made.
Perhaps the close families and communities are just too alien to the ex boarding schoolers who generally run the country.

I think it is pretty clear by now that there is a proportion of people there who don't want to move away for work. Especially a minimum wage one.

The only option is to make jobs there, or accessible from there.

I don't disagree with any of that - but I do think people misunderstand the roots of the industrial revolution in south Wales.

I was trying to make the small point that the industrial revolution in south Wales began in Tintern, Machen, the lower Taff valley around Radyr and Whitchurch and, most of all, the lower Swansea valley.

Industralisation in the heads of the valleys came later, and coal later still.

I'm not challenging the importance of the coal industry - I'm just saying that's not how the industrial revolution in south Wales started.

For those who understand Welsh there is no more poignant poem than this description of the early iron industry in south Wales.

Aberdâr, Llanwynno i gyd,
Plwy’ Merthyr hyd Lanfabon,
Mwyaf adfyd a fu erioed
Pan dorred Coed Glyn Cynon...

Gwell y dylasai’r Saeson fod
Ynghrog yng ngwaelod eigion,
Uffern boen, yn cadw eu plas
Na thorri glas Glyn cynon.

It's an extract from a 16th century poem about the effect of the iron industry on the Cynon valley. Coal didn't become important until the 19th century. That's not a small time period.

Isn't it already happening, just gradually?

People are moving south, and if not to the cities then close to towns close to the M4.

It's why populations in towns such as Bridgend, Caerphilly, lower RCT etc are growing, From what I see from my family, my friends and their families etc are generally moving closer to where the work is. There are exceptions of course as there are always people that prefer to stay where they were from or just don't like the relatively busy towns and cities.

...and for those who don't, it's just a load of pointless vowels and consonants!?

Not true. At the beginning of the 19th century Merthyr was a significant iron town. Amiral Nelson once visited it, to witness the making of cannon.

Regarding Swansea, that's a bit too far away for these valleys, surely?

Regardless, I think it's safe to assume it probably wouldn't have been Cardiff, which was my point.