The blog is here:

cardiffgreengranny.blogspot.com

Reading the accompanying text, the plans seem to be newer than those published in January. I agree with one of Cardiff Green Granny's concerns: in particular it looks like the bus station will no longer be able to open on matchdays. Buses will now enter and exit at Wood Street and taxis will enter by Sleeperz. I think this differs from initial plans where we thought taxis would have to go around the back of the station. Clearly there are trade-offs involved.

But I don't agree with much else. Like many Greenies she seems to think it is bad that we are giving priority to commercial developments (she would favour more open space). And she doesn't seem to realise major developments will involve disruption and compromise (the bus station shouldn't close, apparently). I also don't think having to walk 100m or so between the station and bus station mean it "isn't integrated". Thats a lot better than most other places!

100m does not seem far? Wait till it is peeing down and you have a heavy bag/suitcase. There has to be a covered walkway that will keep you dry between the station and the buses. Not some later addition of curved perspex that is 3 feet wide.

I think you're being a bit harsh on green granny Random! The concerns about the plans prioritising commercial development are as much about her views on the adequacy of the size of the bus station to allow future expansion and the bus access points (as opposed to more open space). Looking at the plans and comparing them to the version we had in January it is clear that what was originally shown to be spread north and south of Wood Street is now all squeezed into the southside area (The Jan plans had the hotels and convention centre to the north, now in the south). As well as this they've squeezed an extra office block in the south side (Jan had 3, this version has 4).

In terms of the bus station itself, looking at the two pics, it seems the Jan version had space for about 27 buses parked at once, while the new plans show about 14 (it's kinda hard to tell exactly what is a parking spot and what isnt, so these numbers might be off a little). Either way, this is obviously much smaller, and I agree with you (and her) that lack of a bus entrance point by Sleeperz is a real loss.

I recognise from her position - as someone wanting to prioritise the environmental impact of developments - that the ideal would be having the bus station right in front of the train station almost as one big unit. But personally I'm happy with it being on the eastside of the square as shown, and I'm happy for it to be a separate building (although I'm very keen to see this covered walkway (it could even be a piece of public art in its own right, like the bridge at Tyndall St)). But I do think it is important that the bus station is built to last and fits with a vision of sustainable public transport for Wales. I think the original plans had capacity for coaches in the station, which greengran says has been dropped. I'd like to see public transport use increase as the city region expands and having a bus station that can cope with that expansion is really important. Indeed, Greengran suggests it is inadequate to cope with what we have now. I don't not how true that is.

And it's not as if we are short of space to build offices right now! This forum is a homage to all the empty plots (north of Wood St, south of the station). Clearly what's happening here is the council are facing the practical realities of turning plans into buildings, and financial and land ownership issues and making them lean towards squeezing everything into one space. I'm glad there's some kind of organised voice making the case for maximising the future capacity for sustainable public transport.

I would like to hear an explanation of the change of plan about the entrance near Sleeperz. I'm sure the taxi drivers campaigned for a rank to the front. But couldn't the drop off point be at the back? (as well as an additional taxi rank). Also what was the entance route for buses from Wood Street is now a service road only (I suspect the occupiers of the buildings behind campaigned for that) but this also squeezes the bus station into a smaller plot. The Sleeperz entrance point was such a great idea and I hope all the creative thinking that can goes into trying to make that workable.

The image posted in the blog appears to be 1 of 5 masterplan options according to the text in the blog.

Considering that the image shows the conference centre to the south of the development doesn't it conflict with what was in the press regarding St.David's House being the site of the conference venue (and what we were discussing early on last week on the Convention Centre thread).

Also, in earlier press the talk was of the two companies (clearly Legal & General and Hugh James from what we can now work out)being above the bus station and not where they are in this image ?

The press for a long time has been for the "Commercial Offices" to be in the centre of the square. I think other offices are shown above the bus station but it hasn't been the large private sector tenants for a long time.

Looks like this could be bad news for the Central Square redevelopment. L&G appear to be on the verge of pulling out. Fingers crossed that they will decide to get behind it.


http://yourcardiff.walesonline.co.uk/2012/03/01/major-plans-for-the-future-of-cardiffs-central-business-district-development-in-doubt-after-lack-of-legal-general-response/

I know this is too simplistic but it does seems that the perfect company for this location is Admiral whose HQs construction is about to start on the lawns at the rear of st davids centre? So a quick rethink please and can we have twice the height please for the new Admiral HQ smack bang wallop in the middle of this prposed CBD!! Maybe it's to late but it just seems so logical and even more so now that legal and general do not appear to be chomping at the bit for this move.

Several hundred jobs on the way to Cardiff. No news on location but hints would suggest Central Square.

More by yer http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17554104

Hope these aren't the same people who call me every day from Mumbai (although they claim they are calling from St Helens!) with names like Doug and Regina.

Can you imagine it - "Hello I am Owain, I am calling you from Cardiff, can you tell me when your loft was last insulated!"

I've racked my brains to no avail. The building exists and has been leased and it is in Cardiff's financial district?

My guess would be Fusion Point 2 in addition to the other call centre jobs that are going there. I hope it's not at Marland House!

Anyone with any ideas?

Firstsource will be based at Discovery House in Cardiff Bay according to the Echo

Discovery House is here -

http://www.estatesgazette.com/propertylink/advert/discovery_house_cardiff_waterside_scott_harbour_britannia_quay_cardiff_cf10_4pb-scott_harbour_britannia_quay_cardiff_cf10_4pb-3324124.htm

Something doesn't add up though. The WME say that a lease for 27,000 q feet has been signed but Discovery House is only 21,500 sq feet in total. Plus, according to the Capital Waterside website, Scott Harbour (of which Discovery House is a part) is fully let. The link above suggest that it is partly let with a few smaller office suites available.

Also it's nowhere near the proposed financial district. Not only that but Firstsource are being coy about the numbers of jobs to be created and there is a suggestion that at least some of them will be coming at the expense of call centre jobs elsewhere in the city.

I'm confused.

Update - the Echo reports that a lease has been taken in Discovery House which they describe as a building of 27k sq feet. That could mean that Firstsource are only leasing part of the building which begs the question exactly how many jobs are being created? The WM suggested somewhere in the region of 500 - anyone know what type of square footage you would need for a workforce that size?

Another little snippet - Cheryl Gillan has an office in Discovery House. Apparently she is going to have to move! I bet Carwyn is cocking himself over that one!

Depends Kyle

Firstsource are moving into Discovery House, the jobs will be moved from an existing large outsourcer in the city which has offices in the CBD and Cardiff Gate...

Here is a summary of the incentives being proposed (sought by the Council from the Welsh govt) for the financial and professional services enterprise zones:

1. Business rate relief - The Enterprise Zones must be designed to minimise job displacement and so any incentives relating to business rate relief should be restricted to new inward investments or moves which involve expansions (job creation). Given the proposed budget of £10m to be distributed across 5 Welsh Zones over 5 years and the State Aid constraints limiting the maximum relief per company to £275,000 over five years, rate relief alone is not regarded as a significant enough incentive to attract investment in the current market.

2. Tax Increment Financing - The success of the Central Business District will depend on the ability to deliver high quality business infrastructure and an environment that is attractive to businesses in the financial and professional services sector. For this reason and because of the potential constraints of rate relief, the Council would therefore prefer to focus on rate retention as the key financial instrument to support the Enterprise Zone, in particular the introduction of ‘Tax Increment Financing’ which would enable the delivery of the necessary infrastructure. (Tax Increment Financing or TIF enables borrowing against future increases in business rate receipts to help fund the development of infrastructure.)

3. Planning - Instead of simplified planning, the Council would prefer to retain full planning powers, and would instead look to provide an accelerated procedure for applications within the zone, which could include reduced fees and shorter determination periods. The Council will also explore the potential of reducing developer contributions such as s106 contributions.

4. Empty Building relief - In order to stimulate development, which in turn creates opportunities for accommodating new inward investment, the Council would like to propose a ‘time limited’ (say 3 – 5 years) Empty Buildings Rates holiday for new speculative developments within the Zone. As part of this, the Council would also propose that any relief should only be made available to developers investing in the highest quality of building design and environmental standards to support the vision of creating one of UK’s most sustainable business locations.

5. Capital Allowances - The use of Enhanced Capital Allowances is more applicable to non-office based sectors. Financial & business services companies would benefit from investment in improving the physical environment and the availability of key infrastructure such as transport, energy resilience and ICT, which could potentially be delivered through TIF.

6. Training – we would propose that levels of existing training support be increased for those companies locating within the Zone.

Sweetfeet

thanks for that. just one question -

why would accelerated planning result in lower fees for the developer? All that happens is the developer is told no sooner than otherwise would happen. The same amount of professional services would need to be obtained by the developer...I would be keen to understand what other costs the developer could reduce by accelerated planning.

The council document doesn't say. I guess that, if the procedure is shorter and more streamlined then the costs for the developer itself and its professional fees are likely to be lower. It may also allow the developer to get on site earlier and hence get revenue sooner (although this is, of course, different to paying lower fees).

I can't see how a streamlined (or fast tracked) procedure will result in lower costs though if the same amount of studies, plans, documents all need to be submitted with the application.

I read fast tracked as being along the lines of 'decision in 4 weeks' instead of 'decision in 8 weeks' (or whatever the actual number of weeks are before Mr Ad Hominem et al correct me and claim a Hannibal-esque type victory). I see fast tracked as just speeding up the decision time rather than what work needs to be done.

as you say, the real benefit will be getting on site sooner. i think suggesting lower costs for developers is very tenuous though, although i may be wrong as i'm not entirely au fait with the planning process at that sort of level (or any sort of level if I am being honest)

I assume "reduced fees" primarily means a reduction in the application fee payable to the Council when submitting the application. There have been discussions at government level about allowing LPAs to set their own application fees, but embarrassingly I can't recall whether this power has come into effect yet.

There would likely be some small reduction in consultant's fees if an application is guaranteed determination within 4/6 weeks for example rather than 8/16/infinity, though hard to quantify and the vast majority of fees would generally be prior to submission anyway.

Not sure if this is the right thread for this litle snippet, but the article behind the link below suggests that Hugh James is considering committing to the South side of Callaghan Square.

Whilst this might be bad news for phase 1 of the CBD (the Central Square bit), it has to be good news for CS.

Hugh James & Callaghan Square

would be good if true but I suspect its more trying to talk the market into action than anything else.

as an (unrelated to CBD) aside, my brother walks through Fitzalan court ever day...he says its now like a ghost town with almost all tenants vacated. not sure if this is true but we do know that the likes of Deloitte have moved towards the CBD away from Cardiffs 'traditional' office area of Newport Road

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business-in-wales/business-news/2012/05/29/is-law-firm-on-lookout-for-new-home-in-city-91466-31065084/

Article suggests that Hugh James, if they move, are likely to move to a new build in Callaghan Square rather than Central Square. But that talks are ongoing for a smaller building (probably still around 150,000 - 170,000 square feet for Legal and General in Central Square.

I'm not sure the lack of a denial in a Wales Online forum proves anything. As has been noted in another thread they're pretty bonkers and most people stear clear of them.

Your theory is plausible enough - but I don't think it's proven.

Thanks for agreeing it's plausible - which part of my summary do you need proving?
Let me say I have non-public info from a meeting with the Major Projects principals (Kevin Doyle, Claire Moggeridge, Paul Carter) on 7th Feb., discussion with a member of Design Commission for Wales (on condition of confidentiality), with the Public Transport Users Council for Wales, with the bus-guru Prof Stuart Cole and with the W Mail's Peter Law. And some Cardiff Councillors. But should be able to satisfy most sceptics on all points.

Surely they have GOT to make a decision what to do with the Bus Station in the interim regardless of what is going to happen with the rest of the area.

There needs to be A plan rather than this meandering aroudn the subject for years. Surely it cant be that hard to analise some other cities around the UK and decide which serves the people of those cities the best?

Are Cardiff Council only dragging it out to see how much money they can make rather than serve the people properly?

Lee. Regular bus user.

At least the road is now being widened to ease the ridiculous traffic snarls caused by the taxi rank blocking the entire approach to the station.

Just walked past the area and noticed that the fenced off pavement where all the taxis used to queue next to has been removed and has been tarmac'ed rather than paved (expensive) and looks like its going to be an official queue for the taxis!

Sense prevails at last!

Ewww - I thought they were going to pave it to blend in.

Seems a waste to pave it with those expensive slabs just for all those wheels, weight and oil to blemish it. Maybe the tarmac is just a base for the slabs?

If it was tarmac'ed it would surely make it more obvious that its a taxi queue rather than part of the road for all road users?

I must admit that I have never understood why it is so vital that the bus station be right outside the train station.

In my lifetime I can recall the bus station being refurbished at least 3 times and yet it always looked windswept, unwelcoming and rundown. It seems to me to be a huge waste of space in the centre of the city and has probably contributed to Central Square being an eyesore. How can it develop as a retail/office destination overlooking what must be an acre or two of mostly empty bus stands?

Is there any evidence that employers will not relocate to Cardiff unless there is a very large bus station outside the main train station? That retail will suffer, that visitors will be put off from coming to Cardiff?

I've got no problem with a bus station being built in Central Square but not in its current format. I just don't get why its so vitally important - it seems to be something thats accepted without question. If anything Central Square is the wrong location for the majority of bus users coming into Cardiff city centre - surely the bus station would be better placed nearer the shops, employment area's and entertainment?

By the way I am a bus user and have been all my life.

The point of having it next to the railway station is to have an itegrated transport hub so that train users can continue ther journey. But there is certainly scope to reduce the footprint of the station, and to mae it little less smelly...

I understand that but what percentage of train users continue their journey by bus and to where? Have there been any surveys done? Surely not having an integrated ticket system is a bigger obstacle than having to walk a few hundred meters to the bus stops on Westgate St or near the library?

I go past the bus station everyday and all I see are rows and rows of empty bus stands.

Surely then the airport needs to be a bit nearer too then! ;)

On a different note, as I was passing the bus station the other say I saw what looked like a new catering unit open in the Marland House complex close to the Boots store and the Weatherspoons pub. I don't follow these things much, so I could be wrong, but it looked like they'd spent a bit of money on kitting out the interior. Does this suggest the building could be there for some time to come? Why would a new retailer invest in a new unit if it was due to be knowcked down in the next year or two?

@Me

I doubt anyone arriving by train with luggage is going to opt for a bus to their final destination. Likewise, having a bus station on say Westgate Street isn't going to stop the Cardiff Bus user if they need to use the station.

having an integrated transport hub usually means airport/rail/bus network in one place and not bus/rail

Birmingham manages it, London manages it and so does every other city..why do we need the bus station right on top of the train station...as long as they are accessible...

Funnily enough, I was wondering about this very issue the other day. I had hitherto always unquestioningly swallowed the line that it is imperative to have the bus station next to the train station as part of an integrated transport philosophy.

I go to Berlin a lot. In fact I was there last week , and I realised on my journey by bus (to the train station en route to the train to the airport), that they didn't have a big bus station outside their glitzy new central train station.I know that Berlin is a different kettle of fish to Cardiff but this fact didn't pass me by.

Karl is right to ask what % of people actually transfer from bus to train & vice versa in order to understand whether proximity is as relevant as we automatically presume.

By and large I suspect that most bus users don't actually transfer to the train. From what I observe,the buses are generally quite empty of passengers by the time that they reach the bus station.It appears to me (as an occasional but not infrequent bus user in Cardiff) that most passengers tend to get off at city centre stops prior to reaching the main bus station.

The current bus station appears to be more of a set of parking up bays for driver shift changes than providing a busy point of access for Cardiff's bus users. Consequently I think that there is ample scope for having a much smaller version of the current terminus.

I think an important point missed is that Cardiff isnt a large city whos population are the only ones who uses the train station. Cardiff central is the main departure point to the rest of the UK for most people in the valleys, and speaking as one who used to live in England and took trips home to the valleys, the fact i can step off the train or bus and go to wherever i want was a real life saver with luggage. Also Cardiff has a large student population who can go to the centers of any cities in the UK.
I do think the current bus station is too large and badly positioned for how the city is developing, but i do believe it is one of Cardiffs biggest assets in having both the stations close together. I'm sure the fact that it is integrated is a contributing factor to Cardiff having recently scored highly in comuter satisfaction.
Also i think people are getting a bit romantic about "central square" as its not really a square but a transport entrance to the city center next to the unimpressive central train station. What is needed is great links from the station to the main areas of the city center (millennium stadium, shopping, cultural etc.) and making sure that people can flow freely and uninterupted when events are taking place. This doesnt mean the bus station needs to go, or that train users are the only people whos arrival experiance matters when entering the city. Its only called central square because its cardif 'central' station, not because its Cardiffs central square (that would be city lawns or Roald Dahl plass).