I disagree. I think for those who prefer not to pay for a taxi the bus is the obvious choice. If the bus goes to the train station then you only need to carry your luggage at one end. I've done it myself many times.

Sure, a city can get by without a bus station by the train station but this is one instance in which cardiff is doing much better than other cities. Why aspire to drop below our current position to the status of others? If we ever are to have an air/rail/bus integrated hub then it will be Central Square with an airport link (either bus or rail). Compromising now on the bus/rail link will compromise that as well. I'd actually like to add cycle to the list as well, with decent safe cycle paths in and out central square, and ideally an extension of the pedal power scheme to have bike hire and much increased bike secuity features in the newly designed station area.

Why do we need offices in central square? We have so many other empty spaces crying out for offices to be built on, but only one place that can host a full integrated transport hub. This can be done in an attractive way with a mix of uses without compromising on transport infrastructure.

I can understand why it might be desirable but I can't understand why it appears that no other option can ever be contemplated.

Can you really justify acres of empty bus stands in the centre of the city? On the basis that there are lots of students who might want to catch the train home in the holidays or that people from Cardiff don't have to lug luggage an extra 200m from Westgate St? As a very regular bus user I never go to Central Square. On the odd occasion that I get off a train and want to catch the bus home I don't hang around Central Square either because its grim. Thats not aimed at any specific, just a rhetorical question really.

As for getting misty eyed about Central Square that point doesn't make sense. The fact that it has been reduced to an unattractive transport hub surely means that it will never be able to rise above the god awful? No one gets misty eyed about Central Square - everyone wants it flattened. There has never been anything to get misty eyed over (unless you want to see the return of Temperance Town). It's the complete failure of it to fulfill it's potential that gets my goat.

For what its worth I have no objection to a new bus station being in Central Square. It does make sense although I think it's usefullness is overplayed. I do object to the type of set up we have now which appears to me to be the worst of both worlds. It's deeply unattractive to bus users (and appears to be -on my unscientific anecdotal evidence - not very popular), a dismal entrance to the city and it kills any attempt at an urban form in what should be one of the city's showpiece public places.

Out of interest what was so wrong about the recent proposals that were to have started construction at the end of this year?

@Me

you live in the city (or at least you know it). In that regard, when you arrive you know where the buses are. However, I am going to say with reasonable confidence (not 5 sigma though) that most new visitors to the city would probably utilise a taxi on the first occassion.

The point being is that new visitors will go by taxi, whereas residents and habitaul visitors will know where to look - thus having the bus station right next to the train station is not that important - having it nearby is.

I would also say having a thriving central square with a good mix of high end offices and retail of various uses would be very good for creating a vibrant 'welcome to Cardiff we are buzzing' first impression.

most cities start and end at their transport hubs whereas Cardiff's seems to be the bit that is an afterthought. It is a first impression of our city - we all know that you walk 2 minutes away from Central Square and you have a thriving city, but by that time the damage could be done as first impressions do count.

The council really need to do something here - not doing something just for the sake of it but they should start the project even if they don't have an anchor tenant for the offices - at least get the station built and put in the infrastructure so when the time is right the private sector will kick on rather than having to wait.

its an eyesore including the back of the station. We really need a grand vision that makes the station the core of the CBD and all that goes with it. Forget Dumballs Road - thats town overspill - just get Central Square and Callaghan Square sorted and with Capital Quarter that alone will be enough for Cardiff's top end offices for the next 20/30/40 years....

I've used the bus many times when arriving in a new city, although it can be daunting, but this is more a function of the bus experience in general than anything specific to cardiff.

When you arrive in London , most of us head straight for a tube and can find our way completely intuitively the first time, however I always avoid the bus there, as it is difficult to fathom which bus to get on, and even more difficult to know when to get off. A local doesn't have the same issues.

With the technology around today, it must be possible to make bus travel more accessible to novices to the city, without being intrusive to regular users.

I think that the bus station should be next to the railway station - but it doent need to fill the whole square - and doesnt need to be a terminus for every service in Cardiff.

The proposal to put the station to the east behind the Prince of Wales/Philharmonic was a sensible compromise.

The city centre is jammed packed with big empty spaces! The GN site, north of wood street, Rapports, CQ, Adam St, train station southside. Empty spaces are normal in Cardiff!

But, actually I think maybe we are not that far apart but arguing over a point of emphasis. I recognise the bus station could be somewhere else but I think it would be much better at central square (and which of the above list would make a better bus station?). I certainly want to see a redevelopment of the bus station, and the move to the East side of the Square on the Marland House site seems appropriate to me. But from what I remember the previous plans were looking to squeeze the bus station too hard and made it too small. There was no room for national coach services for instance, and the plans had lost north and south entrances to allow operation on match days. It also had no room for future expansion. These compromises were made to make room for up to three new office blocks on the west side of the square and to maintain a vista to Southgate House. To me this was ridiculous, given the ample supply of office space elsewhere and, has been shown, the companies didn't want to locate there anyway. I want to see a bus station fit for the future, and while all the buses do not need to terminate there, I do want to see them all call through. I'm sure with a little bit of planning intelligence it will be possible to supply space for a complete bus station and room for an impressive public space and some business / retail development.

I'm sure the new bus station would have much in common with the new stations in Bristol and Swansea, and they are much nicer to look at than what we have now, blending indoor and outdoor space in a much cleverer way. With the outdoor bus movements backing onto the St Mary St nightclubs, passenger waiting areas indoor with active frontages onto central square, and Council/Cardiff bus office blocks rising above, it would be much less visually intrusive.

The difference with the other empty spaces you mention is that they are not the first thing visitors by train see (with the exception of the station southside).

But I agree - I think we are pretty much in agreement. It is preferable that the bus station is integrated with the main train station and since we have space to do it (on the south or the north side) why not. I don't really know enough about modern bus station design to comment on the amount of space that would be needed or what features are essential, although as a bus user somewhere safe, out of the elements, clean, well lit and with amenities including toilets must be on the list.

But surely the type of set up we have had in Cardiff for the last 30 years or more must be consigned to the archives? Rows and rows of empty bus stands, barely used by the general public it's supposed to serve, creating a very poor imprssion of what is a crucial public space whilst not even being fit for purpose in my opinion.

How central square used to be

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/sites/all/lib/aerofilms-images/public/wales/WPW041792.jpg

"Hopes for a new bus station in Cardiff by 2014 appear to have been dashed after the plans were dismissed as a “figment of somebody’s imagination” by the new man charged with delivering the long-awaited terminal.

Councillor Russell Goodway, the Cabinet member for economic development and finance, late last week told a committee of councillors that new proposals were being drawn up.

The Labour councillor for Ely did not reveal the proposed location and would only say that any new bus station would be closely tied to Cardiff Central railway station and the new Enterprise Zone."

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardiffonline/cardiff-news/2012/09/10/hopes-of-new-bus-station-for-cardiff-by-2014-dashed-91466-31800455/#ixzz2659PF3CE

I think we probably already knew these plans were going to be rethought. But it suggests the bus station is going to be near the station, but not on Marland House and not south of the train station. So where it currently is? Or north of wood street? I think these are part of bigger plans that we are waiting to see...

why do I get my hopes up when seeing a new post on this thread. I always end up dismayed.

slightly related, are the council going to renege of their promise to fund the development of the CBD along with the monies promised by WG?

An interesting read with regards to this

http://www.clickonwales.org/2012/09/12-questions-about-the-gateway-to-the-welsh-capital/

Point 11 "How should the south side of the station develop, especially if the Brains brewery vacates its site there, as it may well do after 2017?"
...
where are Brains off?

2017 is when Brains may fully merge with Scottish & Newcastle and if that happens brewing may move away from Cardiff altogether. As far as I am aware there is no real appetite at the moment from Brains to move out but 4-5 years down the line who knows?

It was an interesting read, surely a well thought out masterpan for the entire area is needed, connecting this area to the rest of the city, and the rest of the city to itself through this area. I like the sound of developing the riverside to Bute park and Brains going elsewhere, i hate the smell, it blankets the city and is an ugly eyesaw. I thin if the council are smart they will design any regeneration with the prospect of getting multiple developers and architects to form a new urban area and not just a development ala St Davids 2. With all the investment into regional sdtations why is Cardiff so far down the pecking order?

I'd hate to see Brains move out of Cardiff, although the Brewery doesn't sell itself as it is. I don't really understand how they have suitable space for what I assume is now quite a considerable amount of beer - its in a lot of supermarkets all over now...

I kind of wish they hadn't knocked down the old bus station building... also, has anyone ever stood on the London platform? What a shit of view from Cardiff 'Central'...doesn't give a city centre vibe

Surely that can't happen? I know Boddingtons has moved from Mcer and is brewed in a shed off a motorway somewhere (ditto Newky Brown Ale) but please don't let it happen here. Whats the relationship between Brains and Scottish and Newcastle? I thought it was a joint marketing venture rather than a merger. Brains is still an independent company or so I thought.

I don't mind the brewery being in the city centre. It gives a bit of character to Cardiff - how many other cities have huge breweries in the city centre (especially ones that are so synonymous with the city)? I agree that they don't utilise it well enough - no tours, the Crawshay Arms seems to be used for private functions only etc - but I'd hate to see it go altogether. That part of the riverbank - from the development that dare not speak it's name on the west side of Central Square down to Century Wharf - is ripe for development. It seems crazy that a river running through the heart of the city has so little interaction with it. A great asset wasted.

I would like to see Cardiff Central station covered by an arch roof instead of the individual platform covers - but not a victorian style arch like Paddington - do it as a geodesic strucure following the shape of the lines - a bit like the Eden project - could probably attract lottery funding if it was presented as an artistic gateway with no commercial value??

It would certainly be a better welcome to Wales than the curent station.

Gotta agree with all of the above, but what's that development that you daren't speak of on the west side of central square!!!?? I always thought that spot would be perfect for a big glass tower!
moving on... Totally agree with the interaction with the water bit especially. If Brains were to brew elsewhere (but that would have to be within cardiff -surely) could they not have a brains hotel/pub/restaurant/coffee shop on that plot. Maybe they could have another water taxi stop on that side, (maybe they could even cut into the land a bit where some boats could be moored?) and the river to have lights along it's length at night, and on the other side of the river also, ie from penarth road bridge upto canton bridge - get something decent in the dreaded westside central sq. plot, hide that penarth road garage with trees on it's river side. Then I think Cardiff would be known and recognised for this stretch of water, and we're not talking mega millions either.

Careful. People in Newport might be a bit offended by that.

The sad truth is that the great age of the railways in Britain was in the first half of the 19th century. Cardiff at that point was not really on the map as such. It was the 2nd half of 19c that Cardiff took off as a city, so really we missed out on something grander. The station looks okay from the front although the platforms could do with a makeover. The new south entrance should make a nice contrast of the old and the new.

we did lose Queen St Station, which was far grander (for some reason?).

I quite like the historic elements in a way, although they haven't remained in the same way as say London Underground, where they are accompanied by modern day facilities/equipment etc, they've just never really been brought up to date...

Frank

if you have seen the renders for the station Southside you'll appreciate they are more akin to Bristol Parkway than Bristol Templemeads

Interesting to think what this Olympics related public art may imply for the redevelopment of the bus station area:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardiffonline/cardiff-news/2012/11/07/olympics-exhibition-costing-115-000-to-open-at-cardif-bus-station-91466-32178124/



it is being linked to promoting Cardiff in 2014, and costs £115,000, which suggests it could be there for a little while yet. Maybe the council are making all their big plans south side of the station and this plot will remain in its dreadful state for a while to come...

I really wish we could do something akin to Piccadilly Gardens. The new Bus Station is going to be built on the east hand side of the square facing north/south right? As for commerial space, you've got the Glass Needle site, Wood St to be re-developed. A city needs a central square! Cardiff has plenty of empty sites around the city centre, it's ridiculous that we don't have one! We are not short of space.

Surely not Piccadilly Gardens (Manchester)- which has become a badly maintained shambles with tacky entertainments. Let's copy Sheffield city hall gardens, with green space for lunchtime relaxing, as so successful by the CIA (before Admiral destroyed it).

I've not been there for a while, perhaps it's not so great now. I've heard good things about Sheffield. A public space around the Train Station would be better than the Admiral site, which I was sad to see go but mainly because I thought it was the wrong place for Admiral to build. But anyway I was a little concerned by the plans released earlier his year which included a very small public space in front of the station. I would have an open space right up to Wood St. There's plenty of room for commercial development around the square. And other than Brains very little to the south side. Something to think about what with the new south entrance to Central being planned.

I'm not sure that this is assured under the new council. They rubbished the old plans but are yet to say what the new ones will be. I seem to remember something suggesting they had stopped trying to get the current holders of the buildings on that plot to move on. But I might be wrong about that...

Looks like the old plans are dead in the water. Would be very interesting to find out what this council has in mind. Nice to see that the Coal Exchange is given a look in too.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/11/08/cardiff-council-to-buy-up-land-at-callaghan-square-to-kick-start-660m-enterprise-zone-vision-91466-32188290/

I really can't follow the logic here. Is it bad journalism, or shoddy PR for a non discerning public?

Why would a relocation of Cardiff Council's HQ result in the 'enablement' of 7 major developments? Why on earth would the Coal Exchange get redeveloped simply because County Hall is being moved to Callaghan Square???

So what happens to the council offices in Atlantic Wharf? Will they find a buyer?

What's the £100m City-Bay link the article refers to?

would that be the return of the mono metro!! well even if that's what they're proposing I won't believe it until I'm travelling in it!! mind you they'll have to work on it a bit for safety as the pic here clearly shows that it's upside down!!

http://yourcardiff.walesonline.co.uk/2011/03/03/plans-for-a-cardiff-monorail-unveiled/

The whole thing just gets more bizarre - you would get a hell of a lot for a "£150m transport interchange" and this is separate from a "£100m City Bay Link". Presumably this would be with the convention centre / arena on the County Hall site with some kind of light rail between there and town.

so we have a convention centre, new bus station, 600m CBD, monorail, travel interchange....

am I missing anything else?

they are ambitious, but also overstretching themselves somewhat. we'll be lucky to get just one of the above.

at least we've got the great wood street olympic mural!!! to pacify us whilst we wait for these dreams to dissolve!! oh god, me of little faith eh - I really hope that some of this stuff comes off but we all know the long list of ambitious developments that haven't Mind you IF they did ie sports village - callaghan sq. - porth teigr - convention centre (wherever?)... then construction in cardiff would surpass SD2. Here's hoping (as ever!!)

I'm hoping they are buying the land, handing over the parcel of land for Hugh James to a developer other than MEPC who will start building quickly and will own the offices and then sell on to a Pension fund for a profit at some point in the mid term.

It isn't a bad idea to complete this site first before any other grand scheme for a CBD like the previous council had, and let's face it the current owners aren't exactly helping matters by being so fucking slow with this whole project. I'd rather see the land purchased and them bugger off.

The same goes for the J R Smart site on Tyndall Street. Let's get it full of buildings and tenants of one sort or another before any other part of the city centre is flattened for nothing to happen for years.
The city centre has too many holes in it where sites have been cleared. Let's fill them first before we do the same with Dumballs Road or the current bus station.

I'm not sure about any of the other schemes mentioned above. We seem to be back in la la land with a number of major projects mentioned, lots of pretty artistic impressions but that's just about it.

I know I'm being cynical and it's lovely to see some ambition (it's better than no activity at all), but seeing how many of our other grand schemes that went nowhere during the boom years I'll get excited once I see diggers and a crane on each site.

Oh god not a monorail please? We've had enough crackpot transport ideas such as that pod thing! If there's talk of a transport link then light rail is the obvious answer, tied in with the South Wales metro plan. Link it to Queen St station and extend it around the bay. But in my lifetime would be good!

Someone mention monorail?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw

http://www.hassellstudio.com/en/cms-news/2013/03

News / March 2013
Monday 4 March 2013
HASSELL appointed to master plan for Cardiff City Council

HASSELL has been commissioned by Cardiff Council to master plan two key areas of the city centre – Callaghan Square and the area around Cardiff Central Rail Station.

As the gateway to the city for rail travellers, the ambition for Cardiff Central is to:

_Improve connections between the north and south of the city across existing rail infrastructure
_Improve the management of event day crowds to and from the Millennium Stadium
_Realise the potential of surrounding retail and commercial sites to create a vibrant new transport interchange and mixed use district.

At Callaghan Square, proposals will aim to develop a greater sense of enclosure to the space, create direct pedestrian access from the city centre and extend the new connections on towards Cardiff Bay.

The outcome will be dynamic new public spaces and development sites, vital to the regeneration of this part of the city, and worthy of its capital city status.

HASSELL has extensive experience in transport infrastructure, urban design, public realm and workplace design. Previous notable infrastructure projects include Singapore Circle Line, Tianjin Binhai Transport Exchange, Brisbane Airport expansion and Olympic Park Station for the Sydney Olympics.

This appointment is the result of a lengthy consultation process with the Council. It follows the Head of Architecture at HASSELL, Tony Grist, speaking at a seminar organised by the Design Commission for Wales and the Institute of Welsh Affairs last September, which explored ideas for improving the Cardiff Central site.

"This project is a chance for Cardiff to heal this part of the city, creating better transport connections, more green space and a healthier mix of uses," said Tony.

Colin Hockley, Managing Principal for HASSELL in the UK said, "We are proud to be working with the City of Cardiff to develop a masterplan that will be a catalyst for growth and regeneration. The scheme will enable Cardiff Central to fulfil its potential as an exemplary transport interchange as well as breathing new life into the city centre."

A Central Sq masterplan brief that doesn't mention bus and coach services, just rail travellers!! Perhaps it's thought they are included under "vibrant new transport interchange".
But no mention of a bus interchange being open on match days, just management of crowds. So it looks as if the new Labour Council wants to abandon the bus station - rely on the abysmally failed bus box - and continue with abandoning cross-city bus services on match days in order to prioritise taxis and car-access to car parks. I'd be pleased to hear I'm wrong!

Hopefully they are thinking of a rail interchange for a park and ride scheme that means people dont have to get on buses? Hopefully a fully intergrated scheme can be developed and implemented, but i cant help but think this is all pie in the sky still!

A Park & Ride in the city centre? Doesn't that defeat the object of that sort of scheme?

Park at a suburban rail station (or purpose built one)just off the M4, get on a dedicated train to the city center. On match days you could organise fans by gate and then train them in one organisd go. i'm sure a whole lot of logic is missing from transport in cardiff, especially on match days.

You could kill multiple birds with one stone here:

1. Reopen the old TVR line between Creigiau Quarry and Cardiff Central
2. Reopen the station at Creigiau to serve the area (especially with the planned increase under the LDP)
3. Supply a new station on land near Capel Llanilltern behind the existing J33 services - on this land build a huge park & ride car park accissible from the M4 junction 33.
4. Supply additional stations at Pentrebane and Rhydlafar (areas due to grow under the LDP).
5. Demolish a couple of houses on Kirton Close and Fairwood Road to allow the new line to connect into the existing City line between Radyr and the City Centre.

From the Green Paper:

Integrated Transport Hub –
The buildings and public realm
immediately surrounding the bus
station and Central train station are
in need of a significant upgrade. The
comprehensive regeneration of this
area offers the opportunity to deliver
a new Integrated Transport Hub
that would enable easy movement
between modes and provide one
enhanced and joined-up station facility
instead of separate facilities for buses
and trains. The intention is to remodel
the area to create a major new arrival
point in the city, reflective of Cardiff’s
status as a European capital city. A
new Integrated Transport Hub would
17
also need to provide for anticipated
growth in public transport use over the
next period of Cardiff’s development
including making provision for new
Light Rapid Transit modes as part of
the proposed Cardiff Metro.

The outline of the new intergrated transport hub looks very similar to the previous councils plan for the Central bus station. Apart from including the tram/electric bus I wonder what will be different?

Just a tram then? I'm just surprised the Dear Leader didn't go the whole hog and plan a monorail around the city centre.

Confirmation of sorts that the council's attention is back focused on Central Square, after failing to spend its cash on Callaghan Square. They are buying up anonymous buildings, that are probably Marland House and St Davids House. 5-10 year plan to sort out the area will be announced one day in the future, but not until after sales are complete.

"The council, Coun Goodway reiterated, is working with Network Rail on turning Cardiff Central into a transport hub serving rail, bus and trams as part of the scheme."

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cardiff-council-buy-up-buildings-5921299

I wonder how close to the old plan of the previous council this will end up looking? (after Goodway trashed it).

so the council are buying up property but they don't yet have a plan? not only that, i'm pretty sure Goodway told us earlier in the year that the council will be releasing new and exciting plans for the area come the autumn. Now it appears the autumn is here and the council don't have a plan to excite us with.

Cardiff really is a ship without a rudder

I, for one, don't know what is going on anymore with regard to the drip feed of news stories that we often get from Cardiff Council/Welsh Government/Wales online/un-named sources/letting agents/interested parties about the Callaghan Square/Dumballs Road/Central Square/Wood St/Capital Quarter enterprise/non enterprise zone.

All I know is that we seem to want Central Square and the wider Callaghan Square 'to be a Gateway to Wales that we can be proud of, to be a day/night family and business friendly mixed use development of offices, residential and shopping whilst providing a modern and vibrant 21st century integrated transport hub capable of meeting the needs of a wider city region status'.

I have however, on a positive note*, noticed that Phase I - the Tesco Metro under St David's House is now open for business to kick start the vision.


* dependent upon your point of view of course