seeing as it is a significant development - and it is actually happening - I thought we could start a new thread on the subject.
today is the first day of the new website, as announced by Baywatcher (or was it Gail) yesterday.
Does anyone know the expected timeline of construction?
"Exciting" (sorry!) news this.
I hope once this is complete there will be more of a community feel down the bay. It is rather soulless and one of the reasons me and the other half moved out from there. It just doesn't have the hustle and bustle of other inner city suburbs such as Roath and Canton.
Plenty of pubs, bars and shops please, all within walking distance and not designed for the car. It was a complete pain in the arse having to get in your car just to get a pint of milk or go to the cashpoint when I lived down there previously.
Good idea to start a new thread.
To summarise the proect, there are 3 elements of Cardiff Pointe, which are to be "viewed as one development":
1. The main Cardiff Pointe site which is the land on the peninsula by the Yacht Club
2. The affordabe housing opposite Ferry Court (Prospect Place) on the patch of land by Morrisons
3. The affordable housing opposite Victoria Wharf where the current Sports Village site office is
Once the Cardiff Pointe site and Sports Village are complete as planned, I remember from a presentation from the developers for residents that there will still be some empty on the peninsula, and this could lend itself to more homes and possibly a junior / infants school (residents at the meeting felt the entire development needed further thought to create more of a community i.e. health facilities etc). I've heard a few rumours re Toys R Us being relocated to allow more homes but as far as I know, there's no evidence for this.
When I go to the gym at the International Pool I have a raised view of the main site, so can take some photos as the work goes on?
Homes are on the Allen and Harris website (Sequence Homes), all with price on application:
The Barque - situated between a £750k and £1.2m house, suggesting that the rumours are correct that there will be £1m houses:
Three / four bedroom house - situated between £490k and £500k, suggesting a half a million asking price:
Caravel - 1 and 2 bedroom apartments situated between £289k and £299k (no mention of a water view and I'm presuming the £289 to £299k is the 2 bed and the 1 bed is between £185k and £187k):
I agree. Too often a particular part of The Bay is referred to as 'The Bay' - usually Mermaid Quay. Your 'part' - around Celestia and Mermaid Quay is more 'finished' than the Sports Village end and so there must be more 'inclusion' as it were.
Once the building at Cardiff Pointe, Bayscape, etc., is complete, that end will be buzzing too with the 'community feel' that Maxifli found lacking and which you experience.
Prices have been officially released on some plots:
Barque 5 bedroom from £750k
Brigantine 5/6 bedroom from £550k
Albacore 4 bed from £465k
Caraval apartment 2 bed from £175k
From what I can tell, only the Barque has a water view (£175k for an apartment without a water view sounds a bit pricey to me). The website actually contains some information now, rather than the same pictures.
Pile driving a gogo at the site today! At last work seems to be underway to make this small peninsular a very attractive addition to the bays and indeed cardiffs assets, and we can start observing this transformation (no pressure baywatcher!) and with that Horizon tower growing ever taller things are looking up. That is going to be a busy 1/4 square mile for the forseeable future.
MY QUESTION TAKE 2!
Q1. Now I've asked this before (with no replies ) so I'll try again... what do the good folk of this forum (and the others also - you know who you are!!) think that when all building is finished, maybe that will be upto ten years? the population of this peninsular will be? I'm thinking it could be as many as 4-5,000 which is the same as the population of places like fishguard or tenby. Or am I completely wide of the mark?
Q2. and if I'm going to get ignored for 1 question then let's go for a double and ask what the current population is so that's from the A4232 to the cardiff bay yacht club. Here's a handy map (yes I know it needs updating!) to refer to http://www.cardiffwalesmap.com/cardiffsportsvillage.htm
I dont think its so much being ignored, as people not knowing how many apartments are in each of the developments around the site. if you can find that out online then just add them together
I've guestimated the area south of the A4232 using Zoopla and planning applications at present to be:
Ferry Court (Prospect Place) - 734 units;
Watermark - 60 units;
Victoria Wharf - 478 units;
Grangemore Court (off Dunleavy Drive) - 86 units; and
Burford Gardens (off Dunleavy Drive) - 60 units.
Total - 1,418 units.
Based on what I know of the area I'd guess 5% of units are unoccupied at any given time, 30% of units in single occupancy, 50% of units being occupied by 2 people, 10% being occupied by 3 people and 5% are being occupied by 4 people. This would give a total current population of 2,552.
For a guestimate of the completed area:
Ferry Court - 960 units;
Watermark - 60 units;
Victoria Wharf - 478 units;
Grangemore Court (off Dunleavy Drive) - 86 units;
Burford Gardens (off Dunleavy Drive) - 60 units;
Bayscape - 125 units;
Cardiff Pointe (main site) - 561 units;
Cardiff Pointe (affordable housing 1) - 63 units;
Cardiff Pointe (affordable housing 2) - 95 units; and
Future Cardiff Pointe development (not yet planned) - 150 units.
Total - 2,638 units.
In the grand scheme of things as the majority of the developments are apartments, they don't lend themselves to having higher occupancy levels, so using the same percentages as above, this would give a total population of 4,749.
And knowing my luck some higher power will decide that we need 4,750 occupants in the area before we can get a local GP.
Nice one Gail - that's a very comprehensive answer to my questions! many thanks. So I'm thinking that the area in question will probably be the most densely populated square .5km(ish) in Wales and yet hopefully will have some open space and a smattering of greenery. Approximately the equivalent of 10,000 per 1km squared, I know Cathays is quite densely populated but with no high rise I suppose it wouldn't be anywhere near that figure
It depends how you draw the map, I guess, but the area between Bute Street and Canal Park is pretty densely populated.
I noticed a tower crane went up yesterday at the Cardiff Pointe development, a younger and smaller version of the Prospect Place crane.
Makes the development of the ISV look like it's just gone up a gear.
Now for the Ice Rink and Bayscape to begin...
Excellent news. Which part of the development is the crane for ?
I noticed the tower crane too! I'd say whatever its building is going to be about 8 storeys maximum. If someone can tell me the best way to do so, i'll start posting pics on here as I've got a great view from my loft.
I guess the crane will be used to put up the flats.
The Wherry and the Felucca are both the tallest, at 6 floors, based on the renders. I would guess they will try and use 1 crane for 2 sets of flats if the arm/reach is long enough. Then move the crane or erect another for the next 2 sets of flats.
Take a look at the prices and plans for the properties on:
I think that the developers are being very optimistic on the prices given the room sizes and overall square-footage. In particular, I would imagine that families with £750,000 to spend on a house would demand a master bedroom that is larger than 12' by 11'. And whilst a property of that price in London would be a typical value for something rented out two five sharers or students, its is far above what such occupiers would pay in Cardiff.
The apartments also seem overpriced given the square footage - again closer to typical London prices than typical Cardiff prices.
I think the developers will either have to cut prices susbtantially or reconfigure designs so that apartments and houses are larger.
I'm currently selling a property at the moment in north Cardiff. I'm not convinced we're seeing any impact from the help to buy scheme here. I'd say prices are probably down 10-20% from peak and maybe treading water now at best.
I quite like the exterior finishes.
I don't think it is render, but instead very pale brick: if you look closely at the pictures (the one for the Brigatine is best) you can make out the pattern of bricks. I think brick-built buildings stand the test of time far bettre than render. And I think the pale brick looks better than darker red bricks would. Pale bricks would also stand up better to the problem of the white/grey staining you sometimes get, I guess as a result of some of the cement leaching out... although would be more prone to other stains. However, in any case, any brick is better than the white render and wood that was used for the nightmare that is Celestia.
Like I said, my main concern is the price per square foot, and the layouts. I think they've clearly misjudged the market, although I'm not sure whether this flows from greed (i.e. they are planning on making very high profits), or high costs in developing the site (the land, decontamination etc). I think they'll have to cut prices by at least 20% though to get things moving. Its what 1 month in and so far there is one property reserved. That has got to be much slower than they hoped (at this pace, you wouldn't sell everything for about 100 years!).
I was extremely disappointed at the launch and plans. Seriously looked at the penthouse apt for £295,000 but hated the design (no kitchen window, guests have to walk through kitchen to get to loo, no internal storage, poky bedroom sizes). Ended up buying a large 3 bed in Victoria Wharf for considerably less and I know exactly what I’m getting.
I understand that as of 2 weeks ago, 3 units have been sold and due to the waiting list for the £1m homes, the price of these may be increased to £1.5m.
I've had a look at the marketing suite. The whole project including the retail is going to take 8 years. The high rise apartments are going to start in 5-6 years time. The retail element will have a shopping mall with lots of boutique shops. Hopefully greenbank will give the chains a miss and will prefer local business.
One final thing, the top price is expected to be 2m, this is not including the penthouses which haven't been finalised yet but are expected to cost more
I'll give them an A for ambition and effort. But a D for realism and implementation.
It seems unlikely to me that the retail offering will be particularly successful unless it has a few chain stores to pull in the crowds. I don't think Cardiff Council would allow fashion retail on the site in any major way due to fears of hitting the city centre.
And I just don't see the value in the housing unless sizes of apartments and houses are increased. What makes these apartments and houses worth more per square foot than those anywhere else in Cardiff? And substantially more than just over the road in Victoria Wharf or Prospect place? As I said, the room sizes in the more expensive houses is pitiful. My bedroom is currently larger than the master bedrooms in the £750k houses and I live in London in an area very similar to the Bay. I just don't see how they can justify such prices.
I'd be interested to see sales figures - the website lists 3 properties have been reserved. After what, 2 months of marketing, that is truly dreadful. Even St Davids, marketing at the height of the recession did better than that.
I predict price cuts, a redesign or a halt to the whole project. Current pricing just makes no sense to me, and it seems most potential buyers agree.
There can't be more than a handful of £2 million houses in Cardiff, surely? WalesOnline mentions Graig Road Lisvane, up on Caerphilly Mountain, but those are practically mansions. And they have the best view in Cardiff.
Two big ones for a spot near Morrisons and ToysRUs seems a bit optimistic.
Perhapes they are planning on city becoming a champions league team by that time and so they'll need plenty of properties like that for Ronaldo, Messi and Bale.
That does seem rather optimistic. Huge Victorian piles in the Vale rarely cost that much. If I was spending 2m on a property (and as I don't have a pot to piss in this is very much wild speculation on my part) I'd want something very special - a whole floor on one of the towers for example, a place to park my yacht (if that's the correct terminology), a Morrisons loyalty card etc etc.
I also can't see retail taking off in any significant way. It hasn't taken off in the Mermaid Quay area (anyone remember the Covent Garden on Sea tag it had when being built.... ) which is an established destination with a constant footfall throughout the week with office workers and the local populace and on the weekends with day trippers.
I would imagine that Cardiff Pointe is unlikely to be the same type of destination or see similar levels of footfall. It's more likely to attract those using the sporting facilities. I don't know about you but I don't tend to tack on boutique shopping with a trip to the swimming pool. My purchases tend to be restricted to Wagon Wheels etc.
For retail to work here it would have to be some sort of mini Macarthur Glen with enough outlets to get big enough numbers and as Random says above the Council (rightly) won't go for that.
i'm not so sure Karl (about th retail) - we currently have victoria wharf, prospect place, cardiff pointe, bayscape and penarth marina all within a 5/10 minute walk of where this shopping area will be. Thats got to be upwards of 10,000 people surely. There is also the ****** hotel that is being mooted plus Bayscapes ***** hotel. I'd imagine that visitors may want to have one or two shops to be able to choose from. I'm not suggesting another mermaid quay, but I got the feeling they (the developers) were looking at a mix of boutique retail, bars, cafes and offices.
one thing is for sure, the whole area will need a centre of sorts and as such the council should allow a centre to develop for this area. I also think that as families move in a school is a must. The council is responsible for providing services and if you have say 3-4,000 dwellings paying top end council rates then the least they can expect is a school nearby to send their children to. as the area develops a primary school is a must
You have hit upon a very important point Jantra. Schools. The developers are building top dollar family homes but it seems to me that one issue that potential purchasers may have will be the local schools.
As far as I am aware the most local ones are Mount Stuart, St Cuthberts or Pwll Coch if you want Welsh medium or alternatively send the kids private. I'm not sure if this would come under Grange in terms of catchment area in whoich case I suppose Ninian Road is probably the nearest or St Pats if you are Catholic). As Bay Pointe does not come under the Vale I assume Penarth schools are out of the equation.
I have no doubt that all of those schools are excellent but lets not kid ourselves that to many parents the school catchment area is very important and informs their choice of where to live. That's why you get a premium on fairly average housing in Lakeside - so the kids can go to Cardiff High. Even though other local schools have good reputations as well. I'm sure it happens all over the city. I wonder if this is something the developers have taken into consideration.
I agree that there needs to be some sort of 'centre' at some stage to service the population. I can see there being a Drs surgery, dentist, some sports goods stores, a smattering of waterside eateries, cafes and bars but I really can't see retail taking off here. Even if the immediate population does reach 10,000 plus it would still need to be a shopping destination for retail (especially fashion) to sustain itself. To be a destination there needs to be a critical mass of shops and I really can't see the Council undermining the city centre by effectively allowing another out of town shopping centre being built.
I'm really not so sure about the likelihood of additional shops/doctors surgeries/schools being provided. These facilities were never really addressed for the thousands who reside in the new builds at Atlantic Wharf / Celestia / Adventurers Quay / Lloyd George Avenue areas (with the one exception of the small primary school just off LGA - which they wanted to close a few years ago!).
I've got to go to Newport Road if I want to see a dentist and to Grangetown to see a doctor. I have to go to town or to the lovely Cardiff Bay retail park if I want to shop (and the latter is a hell of a lot nearer to the future residents of Cardiff Pointe). The only such developments that have popped up around here are those that have been built in Loudoun square last year.
I really don't think that the residents of the Bay are anywhere near as chic as people like to believe. I think all this talk of boutique shopping is mainly nonsense. Cardiff is just too poor to support it (at least in the numbers needed for the businesses to survive). Just look at how the retailers in the beautiful arcades struggle, and , as Karl said, how the busy focal point of Mermaid Quay has never managed to deliver on the retail front.
The well-heeled pensioners that live around me are conservative, tight and shop in the chains over at the retail park.
I share the reservations here. I can't see any retail mix associated with this development being much beyond Costa, Wetherspoons, mini-marts and possibly some sporting/outdoor activity kind of stores. With a bit of luck the offer might be upgraded to a Coffee #1, a sister to Juno Lounge and a Sainsbury Local.
I think you mean Cardiff Bay Yacht Club and that won’t attract too much traffic through the retail area. Where marinas and shops work well is when the retail area is right at the top of the gangway as what is planned at Bayscape. A coffee shop, restaurant, some nautical themed specialty shops keep the foot traffic to help the retail trade survive. Can’t imagine anyone walking from CBYC and once you’re in a car you won’t stop.
As with all new residential developments, the occupiers will be forced to drive (due to distance and laziness) to shops, schools and services. The congestion will be horrendous when it’s fully built.
I mean Penarth yacht club which is at the end of the peninsula. Cardiff bay yacht club is over the other side down Windsor esplanade by lacuna
I agree that the retail focus is likely to be sports-related stuff. Once the snow dome and ice rink etc is done, the likes of Snow & Rock will surely take an interest and I can see McArthur Glen-esque outlet stores springing up too (which might overcome any concerns about competing with the city centre).
Just a shame that it will all be too late for the Ski Lodge, an independent, which moved from Barry to the Dunleavy Drive development some years ago and then folded.
On that note, anyone know what the spec of the snowdome is going to be? I read on the facebook interest group that there was a possibility that we might end up with an artificial slope, not too dissimilar from the one at Fairwater, rather than a proper snow dome. Don't bother if you ask me. Anyone know if there's any truth in this rumour?
just to get the job advert off top spot...
there is another tower crane at Cardiff Pointe. That's two.
Its starting to look quite exciting over there!
This is a photo of the work so far
How tall will the tallest building be there?
Ignoring the cheesy soundtrack, what do people think of the Heli-eye update on the “news” section of cardiffpointe.co.uk? Great bit of marketing to generate interest in the development.
I think its pretty cool, shows what the area is like.
It's difficult to take interesting pics of the pointe - this is from the barrage
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